IRC log of rdb2rdf on 2010-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:50:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:50:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:50:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:50:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:50:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:50:34 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:50:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:50:35 [trackbot]
Date: 28 September 2010
15:50:39 [mhausenblas]
Chair: Michael
15:50:48 [mhausenblas]
15:51:17 [boris]
15:51:18 [boris]
15:51:24 [mhausenblas]
15:52:04 [boris]
ok Michael
15:59:40 [Zakim]
SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:00:03 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:27 [mhausenblas]
scribenick: boris
16:00:48 [juansequeda]
juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:49 [Zakim]
16:01:01 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:01 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:01:06 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:01 [Seema]
Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:03 [Zakim]
+ +49.153.6.aaaa
16:02:09 [Zakim]
16:02:31 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, aaaa is boris
16:02:31 [Zakim]
+boris; got it
16:02:35 [boris]
16:02:43 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, ??P11 is juansequeda
16:02:43 [Zakim]
+juansequeda; got it
16:02:45 [Zakim]
16:03:00 [betehess]
betehess has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:21 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:23 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who's here?
16:03:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mhausenblas, MacTed, boris, juansequeda, Alexandre
16:03:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cygri, betehess, Seema, hhalpin, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, boris, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:03:25 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:27 [Zakim]
16:03:29 [dan]
dan has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:37 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, cygri is with me
16:03:37 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
16:03:37 [cygri]
zakim, i am with mhausenblas
16:03:38 [Zakim]
cygri was already listed in mhausenblas, cygri
16:03:41 [nunolopes]
nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:52 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, nunolopes is with me
16:03:52 [Zakim]
+nunolopes; got it
16:04:17 [mhausenblas]
regrets+ Ashok
16:04:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.633.aabb
16:05:19 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, aabb is dan
16:05:19 [Zakim]
+dan; got it
16:06:18 [Zakim]
16:07:26 [betehess]
Zakim, Alexandre has ericP
16:07:26 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
16:08:18 [boris]
16:08:27 [boris]
16:08:30 [boris]
16:08:40 [boris]
topic: admin
16:08:44 [boris]
accept minutes last meeting
16:08:46 [mhausenblas]
PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see
16:08:50 [boris]
16:09:04 [boris]
16:09:28 [boris]
RESOLUTION: WG has accepted the minutes
16:09:33 [mhausenblas]
16:09:48 [boris]
16:09:53 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:09:53 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:09:54 [Zakim]
16:09:56 [mhausenblas]
16:10:01 [mhausenblas]
16:10:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-72 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to list issues re Datalog approach re PK, FK, etc -- due 2010-09-28 -- OPEN
16:10:01 [trackbot]
16:10:09 [betehess]
Zakim, ericP has left Alexandre
16:10:09 [Zakim]
-ericP; got it
16:10:17 [boris]
mhausenblas: 72 is done ..
16:10:32 [boris]
... ericP: are you ok?
16:10:32 [mhausenblas]
close ACTION-72
16:10:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-72 List issues re Datalog approach re PK, FK, etc closed
16:10:56 [boris]
mhausenblas: clean up a bit the rest of the actions
16:11:05 [mhausenblas]
ACTION: Hausenblas to clean up the actions
16:11:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Clean up the actions [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-10-05].
16:11:38 [boris]
Topic: FPWD "Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language"
16:11:52 [boris]
Souri: we don't have a draft yet, but working on it
16:12:19 [boris]
.... copy an old SPARQL recommendation and put things there ...
16:12:26 [boris]
.... to discuss sth with richard
16:12:53 [boris]
.... after the discussion today, we have some content there .... html document seems working fine
16:13:06 [boris]
.... should be able to be done this friday, probably something
16:13:19 [boris]
... if richard has time as well
16:13:44 [boris]
mihausenblas: what part is technically stuff, and what part is the content?
16:14:12 [boris]
souri: hhalpin can help with the html
16:14:48 [boris]
richard: technically side, is hard to get some version control, to all have access to the cvs ...
16:15:12 [boris]
richard: content side, we don't have so much yet
16:15:31 [boris]
....: we need brainstorm things, and discuss
16:15:58 [boris]
souri: I have some idea what to write ... the content to provide the syntax in turtle
16:16:10 [boris]
....: then send to richard to take a look
16:16:15 [mhausenblas]
Michael: will follow-up with Harry to sort out the technically issues
16:16:50 [boris]
richard: among the 3 editor have to talk the number of issues for creating the language ...
16:17:03 [boris]
....: we can use the time now, or schedule sth later
16:17:31 [boris]
mhausenblas: we can take some time here ... if it won't take so longer
16:17:39 [boris]
....: use the wiki?
16:17:49 [boris]
richard: I don't like the idea of using the wiki
16:17:55 [ericP]
there's no misery like wiki layout misery
16:18:49 [boris]
souri: we could you use the telco to discuss the schema and the example
16:19:21 [boris]
..... once we have the cvs we can use it for collaboration
16:19:58 [boris]
richard: as soon as the cvs works the check-in the things
16:20:18 [boris]
souri: look at the turtle syntax and xml syntax
16:20:34 [boris]
.... translate xml syntax to turtle syntax and an extended example
16:20:53 [boris]
.... can we discuss that today, and agree for the core content
16:21:07 [boris]
mhausenblas: what wiki page?
16:21:28 [Souri]
16:21:41 [boris]
souri: url of the schema
16:21:48 [Souri]
16:21:56 [boris]
.... now the url of the example
16:22:05 [boris]
... extended example
16:22:32 [boris]
souri: look at the schema, is very tiny ...
16:22:40 [boris]
.... is it ok or not?
16:22:53 [boris]
...: ideally to use owl .. we decided not to use
16:22:56 [boris]
16:23:23 [boris]
....: e.g. cardinality constraint ... this requires owl, so we remove it
16:23:56 [boris]
richard: can we take later it later? to what extended we need it .... for the definition of the language it doesn't matter
16:24:00 [boris]
souri: I agree
16:24:05 [boris]
... to complex otherwise
16:24:10 [boris]
.... later on we can decide
16:24:36 [boris]
richard: questions .....
16:25:26 [boris]
.... the terminology in the example and the schema, there are some things .... that are inspired in owl more than rdf
16:25:30 [boris]
souri: examples
16:25:41 [boris]
richard: for example, class map definition
16:26:07 [boris]
.... rdf level, class is not defined, it is in rdfs
16:26:17 [boris]
.... instance is just a resource
16:26:35 [dan]
16:26:40 [boris]
souri: we use rdfs ....
16:27:05 [boris]
.... in your example you are using classmap
16:27:21 [boris]
richard: the turtle example just translates things from xml example
16:27:32 [boris]
.... stick to RDF terminology in general
16:28:01 [boris]
.... be aware in which section we need upper levels
16:28:23 [boris]
souri: worry about the simple idea of classes, seems to clarify things
16:28:42 [boris]
.... not owl, but RDF(S) classes are simple, class and subclass hierarchy
16:29:02 [mhausenblas]
16:29:05 [boris]
.... jump from RDF to RDF(S) is minimal, not to OWL
16:29:17 [boris]
.... RDF(s) is clear to the reader
16:29:22 [mhausenblas]
ack dan
16:29:59 [boris]
dan: I agree with that ... this is not rdf or rdf(s) discussion
16:31:56 [boris]
....: we need to consider when we are going to be successful .... rdf community, database community .... we should be aware .... data quality?
16:32:05 [boris]
(sorry not hearing very well dan)
16:32:26 [boris]
mhausenblas: table of the contents?
16:32:37 [boris]
souri: schema and example
16:32:47 [boris]
.... every aspect of the schema has to be explain
16:33:01 [boris]
.... for each class, what properties, so on
16:33:09 [boris]
... then some examples and justifications
16:33:26 [boris]
.... some cases at risk, computational risks
16:33:42 [boris]
.... this can be the content right now
16:33:50 [boris]
... we can improve it later on
16:34:14 [boris]
richard: two parts .... one part explain what is going here
16:34:23 [boris]
.... second part specific partes
16:34:44 [boris]
.... what is good for, who reads this document
16:34:57 [boris]
souri: notations, user guide and then some reference
16:35:23 [boris]
richard: sort of one page of overview that explains the approach of the language ....
16:36:09 [boris]
....: slides from alex to take this as an example ..... sth of the query and then explain how this is translated in rdf
16:36:34 [boris]
.... after we can go after the individual features, class maps, FK, PK, ..
16:37:13 [boris]
mhausenlas: what is the doc about? after we read the doc what we can do?
16:37:56 [boris]
richard: after reading the doc, we will be able to write R2RML docs
16:38:14 [boris]
.... you can't implement the language if you can understand the language
16:38:33 [boris]
mhausenblas: what we want to provide
16:38:41 [boris]
richard: specification of the language
16:38:54 [boris]
.... all the knowledge necessary for writing a mapping document
16:39:14 [boris]
... an implementor has to know all the of things related to the language
16:39:22 [boris]
..... not proposing an implementation
16:39:36 [boris]
.... this is a reference, go to the things one by one
16:39:54 [boris]
.... ideal reader, someone who really wants to learn the language
16:40:02 [ericP]
q+ to say that traditionally, w3c writes for implementers
16:40:24 [boris]
mhausenblas: we should provide some guidance .... not so much details ...
16:40:42 [boris]
souri: looking at the sparql doc. ....
16:40:50 [boris]
.... introduction, conventions
16:41:00 [boris]
.... then informative chapter
16:41:19 [mhausenblas]
ack ericP
16:41:19 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to say that traditionally, w3c writes for implementers
16:41:20 [boris]
.... we can follow the same
16:41:49 [boris]
ericP: job 1 communicate to implementors, answers and test cases
16:42:04 [boris]
.... job 2 users
16:42:25 [boris]
...: sparql doc pattern in the default mapping
16:42:34 [boris]
richard: agrees to eric
16:42:42 [boris]
... one priority: how all it works
16:43:01 [boris]
... two: be readable to users ... examples, basic
16:43:11 [boris]
.... for now let's focus on the first part
16:43:18 [boris]
.... details of the language
16:43:38 [boris]
.... later on we can explore on how to present the things to general users
16:43:56 [mhausenblas]
Michael: made different experience in RDFa case (primer - , and syntax -
16:43:58 [boris]
.... for now focus only on specificy later on ...
16:44:03 [boris]
... on the job 2
16:44:15 [boris]
mhausenblas agree with the approach
16:44:38 [boris]
....: not saying to have two separate documents
16:44:54 [boris]
.... each section clearly specifies for whom is
16:44:56 [juansequeda]
q+ to ask about experience of having different documents instead of one
16:45:25 [mhausenblas]
16:45:42 [boris]
richard: we have to see if we can have two documents or one
16:45:42 [mhausenblas]
ack juansequeda
16:45:42 [Zakim]
juansequeda, you wanted to ask about experience of having different documents instead of one
16:45:46 [boris]
... but later on
16:45:51 [ericP]
also, traditionally, w3c relies on o'reilly for user-facing docs, but we've been a bit more merciful about that recently
16:45:58 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:45:58 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:45:59 [boris]
juansequeda: I don't see the problem of having 2 docs
16:46:03 [mhausenblas]
16:46:54 [boris]
richard: to souri, the basic building block in all of the different parts of the proposal ... the classmap is the basic block
16:47:49 [boris]
.... about the view map .... the things written there ... I agree with SQL query ... but this not one to one map to class
16:48:12 [boris]
.... dynamically computed classes .... each row map to different class
16:48:42 [boris]
.... what is your opinion of this
16:48:55 [boris]
souri: we should take that into account ... this is a first draft quickly
16:49:21 [boris]
...: your mechanism was a view map .....
16:49:35 [boris]
....: right now is not taking into account ....
16:49:52 [boris]
....: do not change the fundamental aspect, just a small aspect ...
16:50:04 [boris]
....: definition of the schema won't change a lot
16:50:32 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:50:34 [boris]
....: we can think on some extensions of the schema ... once we have the fundamental
16:50:55 [boris]
.... let's get the first working draft, and then we can continue working on that
16:51:12 [boris]
mhausenblas: continue to this subject, ok?
16:51:35 [boris]
richard: totally agree with there are a lot of features to discuss
16:51:43 [boris]
.... consider the time, get the basics
16:51:56 [boris]
.... several features after the FWPD
16:52:30 [boris]
.... this view map, can make some fundamental differences in how you think about the language
16:52:51 [boris]
..... important to have an agreement or concensus on this
16:53:06 [boris]
souri: viewmap collapses into classmaps ...
16:53:49 [boris]
.... use classmaps or viewmaps .... in principle we have an agreement to allow one class or many classes ... many to many rels
16:53:54 [boris]
... more on syntax ..
16:54:09 [boris]
.... we can discuss on this ...
16:54:34 [boris]
.... it's important ... but let's leave it out for now ... t
16:54:54 [boris]
.... after the FWPD ... we can fix this aspect
16:55:05 [boris]
mhausenblas: end of week?
16:55:13 [boris]
souri: yes ... end of week
16:55:28 [boris]
.... focus on completeness and then the details
16:55:52 [boris]
mhausenblas: pls use the mailing list ...
16:55:59 [boris]
.... to discus things
16:56:10 [boris]
richard: ... in terms of process ... for now in html
16:56:42 [boris]
souri: starting working with the sparql doc and then replace things there
16:56:49 [boris]
.... then send mail to the list
16:57:10 [boris]
richard: working in chapter X, and the other in chapter Y
16:57:17 [boris]
... use the list?
16:57:38 [boris]
.... email as version system?
16:57:44 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:58:00 [Zakim]
16:58:01 [Zakim]
16:58:04 [mhausenblas]
16:58:06 [Zakim]
16:58:07 [Zakim]
16:58:07 [Zakim]
16:58:08 [Zakim]
16:58:10 [Zakim]
16:58:10 [Zakim]
16:58:41 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who's here?
16:58:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see boris
16:58:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see nunolopes, dan, cygri, betehess, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, boris, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:59:03 [ericP]
Zakim, please disconnect boris
16:59:03 [Zakim]
boris is being disconnected
16:59:04 [Zakim]
SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
16:59:05 [boris]
I did it
16:59:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were mhausenblas, MacTed, +49.153.6.aaaa, boris, juansequeda, Souri, cygri, nunolopes, +1.512.633.aabb, dan, Seema, ericP
16:59:21 [mhausenblas]
trackbot, end telecon
16:59:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:59:21 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:59:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:59:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:59:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:59:23 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
16:59:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Hausenblas to clean up the actions [1]
16:59:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:59:25 [ericP]
boris, yeah, but you have to really scream and slam the phone down or zakim doesn't notice