IRC log of tagmem on 2010-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:35 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:00:35 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-irc
17:00:37 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:37 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tagmem
17:00:39 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TAG
17:00:39 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:00:40 [trackbot]: Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:00:40 [trackbot]: Date: 16 September 2010
17:00:59 [Yves]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0024.html
17:01:09 [Zakim]: +Jonathan_Rees
17:01:56 [Ashok]: Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:02:17 [noah]: scribenick: masinter
17:02:29 [noah]: meeting: TAG Teleconference of 16 Sept 2010
17:02:33 [Zakim]: +Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:39 [Zakim]: +Yves
17:02:50 [noah]: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda
17:03:04 [johnk]: johnk has joined #tagmem
17:05:30 [noah]: zakim, who is here?
17:05:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves
17:05:31 [Zakim]: On IRC I see johnk, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, ht, masinter, Yves, trackbot
17:05:38 [masinter]: Larry talking about getting brief "MIME and the web" on today's agenda just to set direcdtions
17:05:49 [masinter]: topic: agenda
17:06:30 [ht_home]: ht_home has joined #tagmem
17:06:35 [masinter]: topic: scheduling meetings
17:06:54 [masinter]: ashok won't be on some telcons (missed which ones)
17:07:06 [masinter]: noah wants people to get some writing done
17:07:31 [Zakim]: +??P7
17:07:34 [masinter]: topic: approval of minutes
17:07:46 [Ashok]: I will niss the next 3 telcons ... next telcon I can attend is Oct 14
17:08:02 [noah]: Minutes of Sept 2.: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/02-minutes
17:08:25 [johnk]: +1 also
17:08:26 [masinter]: resolution: minutes of Sept 2 approved
17:08:27 [Ashok]: s/niss/miss/
17:08:39 [masinter]: topic: administrative items
17:08:50 [masinter]: noah: F2F coming up
17:08:51 [ht_home]: I am coming
17:09:09 [jar]: I'm planning on it
17:09:11 [masinter]: Larry, Ashok, Jonathan will be there
17:09:21 [johnk]: I can't say yet, but *should* be there
17:11:49 [masinter]: noah: Contact from Mark Nottingham (IETF liaison to W3C), suggesting that Alexey M. IETF application area director is planning on being at TPAC, suggested possible meeting with TAG
17:12:16 [Zakim]: + +1.760.705.aaaa - is perhaps Alan
17:13:23 [masinter]: noah: suggest responding to MNot suggesting meeting at TPAC on Thursday
17:13:47 [Zakim]: -Masinter
17:13:59 [noah]: YL: I can take the action
17:14:16 [noah]: ACTION: Noah to respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC
17:14:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-463 - Respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:14:26 [ht_home]: I will unfortunately now not going to be in Lyon at all
17:14:26 [noah]: HT: I will, unfortunately, not be in Lyon
17:15:14 [jar]: I won't be in Lyon either
17:15:14 [noah]: ACTION: Yves to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
17:15:14 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-464 - Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-09-23].
17:15:29 [noah]: ACTION-464 due: 2010-10-23
17:15:47 [noah]: ACTION-464: due 2010-10-23
17:15:47 [trackbot]: ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC notes added
17:16:11 [jar]: ACTION-464 due 2010-10-23
17:16:12 [trackbot]: ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC due date now 2010-10-23
17:17:01 [Zakim]: + +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:38 [Zakim]: - +1.408.332.aabb
17:17:51 [Zakim]: + +1.408.332.aacc
17:17:52 [noah]: scribenick: Ashok
17:18:54 [Ashok]: Noah: We need to do some writing. Will talk to people one-on-one
17:19:23 [Ashok]: Topic: Metadata Architecture
17:19:26 [noah]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0016.html
17:19:46 [Ashok]: Noah: Jonathan would like to pass this on to someone else
17:20:28 [Ashok]: jar: I cannot think about anything non-trivial to say ...
17:20:51 [jar]: masinter: survey what w3c is doing?
17:21:03 [Ashok]: Larry: Can we survey waht W3C does about metadata and problems thereon
17:21:25 [Ashok]: s/waht/what/
17:21:59 [Ashok]: Noah: Should we follow the links from the action
17:22:36 [Ashok]: jar: I cannot do this ... would be better if we got some fresh eyes looking at it
17:22:57 [Ashok]: ... or postpone to January
17:24:02 [Ashok]: Noah: We could close it but wait till Tim is around
17:25:04 [Ashok]: ... or someone follow the links
17:25:11 [jar]: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda
17:25:11 [noah]: Take a look at email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html
17:27:02 [noah]: Tracker, this discussion is about ACTION-282
17:27:23 [Ashok]: Ashok: That's about metadata access ... this issue is about Metadata architecture
17:27:52 [noah]: I think Larry is proposing: "Draft a finding on which metadata technologies (RDFa, photo EXIF, etc.) do I use when?"
17:28:06 [noah]: Maybe we should retitle the action?
17:28:10 [Ashok]: Larry: People don't know how to write metadata ... lots of confusion
17:28:13 [jar]: masinter: A success criterion for this activity. RDFa, microdata, XIF, XMP, GPS, privacy policy. People are confused about what to use when. It's a confusing mess. What happens when they conflict? When I want to change it? Operational issues among W3C and other specs.
17:28:58 [noah]: NM: I think we also discovered that the advice in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html is misleading; ACTION-282 is mostly NOT about metadata access.
17:29:17 [noah]: LM: I'd like an architecture which is a framework into which these specific mechanisms can be placed.
17:29:19 [noah]: q?
17:29:38 [Ashok]: Larry: We need a framework into which these mechanisms can fit
17:30:00 [Ashok]: jar: That matches my memory of how this came up
17:31:17 [noah]: jar: F2F discussion would be good...we're ready
17:31:21 [Ashok]: jar: Perhaps duscuss at f2f
17:31:58 [Ashok]: Larry: Perhaps create an outline
17:32:49 [Ashok]: noah: I can put on an agenda
17:33:10 [Ashok]: Larry: May be good to have a reading list
17:33:47 [Ashok]: ... I will send mail
17:34:00 [noah]: . ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, which metadata mechanisms to use when. Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 [noah]: ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag.
17:34:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-465 - Schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and www-tag. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
17:35:53 [Ashok]: present: Larry, Noah, Jonathan, Ashok, Henry, John_Kemp, Yves
17:36:10 [Ashok]: regrets: DanA
17:37:03 [Ashok]: Topic: Generic fragment id processing
17:38:15 [Ashok]: Noah: There is inconsistency in 3023bis and frag-id processing for RDF+XML
17:38:35 [Ashok]: ... disagreement about what should be done
17:39:24 [Ashok]: ... TAG recommended that 3023bis back off but we got strong pushback saying that generic processing was desirable
17:39:32 [noah]: Larry's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0034.html
17:40:00 [noah]: q?
17:41:05 [Ashok]: Larry: Is there usecase for putting Xpointer in the frag-id?
17:41:29 [Ashok]: Noah: Recaps the generic processing argument
17:42:05 [noah]: ack next
17:42:47 [Ashok]: Yves: Issue is not have XPointer supported but all media types must have a syntax compatible with XPointer
17:43:10 [noah]: Martin Duerst's Note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0022.html
17:43:21 [noah]: Roy Fielding's note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0021.html
17:43:39 [noah]: Norm Walsh's note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0020.html
17:44:06 [noah]: q?
17:44:14 [johnk]: johnk has left #tagmem
17:44:31 [noah]: Norm writes:
17:44:31 [noah]: >> I find that unsatisfactory. It leaves generic XML processors out in
17:44:31 [noah]: >> the cold once again by expecting them to be aware of all of the media
17:44:31 [noah]: >> type registrations for all +xml formats.
17:44:56 [noah]: q+ to go back to talking about conneg
17:45:13 [Ashok]: Henry: By using +xml they buy into XML and thus folks expect XML processing
17:45:39 [noah]: ack next
17:45:41 [Zakim]: noah, you wanted to go back to talking about conneg
17:47:11 [Ashok]: Noah: So, people can read different documents and process the content differently
17:48:36 [Ashok]: Larry: You want frag-id processing be generic
17:48:51 [jar]: ht, noah: the URIref 'identifies' one thing when the processor has read the rdf+xml spec, a different thing when it reads 3023bis. maybe that's ok?
17:49:07 [jar]: ... a single document, same media type in both cases
17:50:22 [jar]: masinter: I want to push back on Norm's and Roy's use cases
17:50:39 [Zakim]: -Alan
17:50:54 [Ashok]: Larry: I want to push back on their usecases ... don't understand why frag-id processing has to be generic
17:50:58 [Zakim]: +John_Kemp
17:51:03 [noah]: HT: XSL stylesheets that format rdf+xml
17:51:30 [jar]: I don't buy that one. It would be meaningless (almost always) in the RDF interpretation
17:51:35 [ht_home]: Note that XInclude is _not_ an example, because it does not allow the use of FragIDs
17:52:05 [Ashok]: Larry: I will ask Norm or Roy for concrete example
17:52:09 [noah]: ACTION: Larry to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important
17:52:09 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-466 - Ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
17:52:11 [ht_home]: jar, the example I have in mind preserves the RDF semantics but restructures the RDF XML
17:52:56 [jar]: grumph. need details.
17:54:10 [noah]: topic: AWWW and the Web interaction model
17:54:13 [noah]: ACTION-355?
17:54:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:54:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355
17:54:42 [noah]: John did some writing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0034.html
17:55:38 [Ashok]: Discussion of John's document
17:56:26 [noah]: AWWW section on
17:56:32 [noah]: AWWW section on "Interaction": http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction
17:58:05 [Ashok]: Noah: AWWW slices into 3 themes, identification, interaction, data formats
17:59:49 [Ashok]: John: How does client know it can use a particular URI ... client/server agreement
18:00:51 [Ashok]: ... update of state w/o user interaction e.g. web sockets
18:01:59 [Ashok]: ... need to define 'user agent' ... may be more than a browser
18:02:29 [Ashok]: ... acts on behalf of server also
18:03:24 [Ashok]: Larry: Web apps break our model of knowledge ... downloaded code knows stuff client does not know
18:04:29 [Ashok]: ... client runs downloaded code on behalf of server
18:04:31 [noah]: Larry: what's interesting is the client is executing code not (just) on behalf of the client, but rather downloading code that acts on behalf of the server
18:04:44 [noah]: I think that's a really useful way to put it.
18:05:54 [Ashok]: John: Clients act like servers and servers like clients
18:07:34 [Zakim]: -ht_home
18:07:50 [Ashok]: Larry: Client has to know security bounadries not the semantics
18:08:42 [Ashok]: s/bounadries/boundaries/
18:09:30 [Ashok]: Noah: John, can you write a document ... maybe a sketch
18:09:39 [Ashok]: John: Yes
18:10:04 [noah]: LM: Be careful about terminology about "client", "server" and "knowing"
18:10:23 [Ashok]: Larry: Be careful about terminology -- client, server and knowing
18:11:00 [Ashok]: ... only need URIs for states you need to come back to
18:11:06 [noah]: What I asked John to do was an early draft of either an updated version of http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction, or else perhaps a finding that would be the start of a complementary section in some TAG publication
18:12:08 [Zakim]: -John_Kemp
18:12:37 [noah]: AM: Larry, you commented on my writeup saying that, and I agree with you. Raman came back and pushed back, but I've forgotten what his point was.
18:12:40 [noah]: AM: Do you know?
18:12:46 [noah]: LM: No.
18:13:55 [noah]: topic: MIME and the Web
18:13:56 [Zakim]: +John_Kemp
18:14:05 [Ashok]: Topic: MIME and the Web
18:14:48 [Ashok]: Larry: I wrote a blog post on use of MIME and how it could be aligned better
18:15:09 [Ashok]: ... suggested some improvements to MIME registry
18:15:52 [noah]: LM: Thinking of splitting into two documents.
18:16:12 [Ashok]: ... may be easier to get agreement on status and history than the improvements
18:16:20 [noah]: We are discussing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0027.html
18:16:31 [noah]: LM: Also might relate to versioning issues
18:16:52 [Ashok]: ... also about sniffing
18:17:18 [Ashok]: ... probly separate versions from variants
18:17:27 [ht_home]: ht_home has left #tagmem
18:18:06 [Ashok]: ... finally about distrbuted extensibility
18:18:34 [Ashok]: ... I want to bring learning from other MIME types to HTML
18:20:30 [Ashok]: Larry: Pehaps descriptive expositions of what has happenned
18:20:46 [Ashok]: Noah: Can you do some work on this
18:21:01 [Ashok]: Larry: I will have another document in a week
18:22:26 [noah]: ACTION: Larry to revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft
18:22:26 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-467 - Revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to Internet Draft [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].
18:23:30 [noah]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
18:23:42 [Ashok]: Topic: Pending Review Actions
18:23:53 [Ashok]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
18:25:02 [noah]: NM: I've closed ACTION-322
18:25:05 [noah]: ACTION-322?
18:25:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-322 -- Jonathan Rees to brief Science Commons counsel re forbidding hyperlinking -- due 2010-08-20 -- CLOSED
18:25:05 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322
18:25:23 [Zakim]: +Masinter
18:25:27 [Zakim]: - +1.408.332.aacc
18:25:36 [noah]: ACTION: Noah to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking"
18:25:36 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-468 - Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].
18:25:41 [noah]: ACTION-468?
18:25:41 [trackbot]: ACTION-468 -- Noah Mendelsohn to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN
18:25:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/468
18:25:56 [masinter]: masinter has joined #tagmem
18:26:23 [masinter]: zakim, who is here
18:26:23 [Zakim]: masinter, you need to end that query with '?'
18:26:29 [masinter]: zakim, who is here?
18:26:29 [Zakim]: On the phone I see noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, John_Kemp, Masinter
18:26:31 [Zakim]: On IRC I see masinter, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, noah, jar, Yves, trackbot
18:26:54 [noah]: ACTION-355?
18:26:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN
18:26:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355
18:27:32 [noah]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue
18:29:02 [Zakim]: -Ashok_Malhotra
18:29:03 [Zakim]: -John_Kemp
18:29:13 [Ashok]: Adjourned
18:29:15 [Zakim]: -Yves
18:29:16 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Rees
18:29:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-minutes.html Yves
18:29:18 [Zakim]: -Masinter
18:29:30 [Ashok]: meeting: TAG Weekly
18:29:38 [Ashok]: chair: Noah
18:29:53 [Ashok]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:30:06 [Ashok]: rrsagent, pointer
18:30:06 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-irc#T18-30-06
18:31:09 [Zakim]: -noah
18:31:10 [Zakim]: TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:31:12 [Zakim]: Attendees were Masinter, noah, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, ht_home, +1.760.705.aaaa, +1.408.332.aabb, +1.408.332.aacc, John_Kemp