14:59:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
14:59:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-irc
14:59:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
14:59:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
14:59:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
14:59:07 <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2010
15:00:10 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
15:00:17 <Zakim> + +1.540.961.aaaa
15:00:24 <manu> zakim, I am aaaa
15:00:24 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:01:38 <Zakim> + +44.208.439.aabb
15:01:44 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:53 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:55 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:02:00 <mischat> zakim, Garlik is aabb
15:02:03 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:02:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:02:05 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'Garlik'
15:02:09 <mischat> zakim, i am aabb
15:02:16 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:02:21 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:02:22 <Zakim> +??P41
15:02:26 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:02:34 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
15:02:36 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
15:02:46 <hhalpin> ?
15:02:47 <mischat> hhalpin: poke
15:02:48 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, mischat, MacTed (muted), ??P41
15:03:03 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P41 is hhalpin
15:03:03 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
15:03:08 <Zakim> + +1.781.416.aacc
15:03:34 <mischat> +1
15:03:43 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: to accept minutes of Sept 1st meeting: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/01-swxg-minutes.html
15:03:50 <mischat> do people accept last weeks notes ?
15:04:11 <Zakim> + +1.510.931.aadd
15:04:14 <MacTed> +1
15:04:17 <hhalpin> ACCEPTED: minutes of Sept 1st meeting
15:04:22 <hhalpin> chair: hhalpin
15:04:25 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #swxg
15:04:31 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:04:31 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose +1.781.416.aacc
15:04:33 <Zakim> + +1.650.299.aaee
15:04:42 <hhalpin> scribe: Manu
15:04:43 <paul> paul has joined #swxg
15:05:00 <manu> Harry: meeting next week, discussing Infocard from HIggins project.
15:05:07 <manu> scribenick: manu
15:05:28 <manu> Harry: Don't see any problems there... let's try to get through these actions.
15:05:29 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Sept 22nd (Infocards and Higgins Project).
15:05:29 <hhalpin> ACCEPTED: Meeting next week on Infocards and Higgins project
15:05:29 <hhalpin> 2. Final Report Action Apocalypse
15:05:30 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #swxg
15:05:34 <Zakim> +??P45
15:05:39 <manu> Harry: At this point, we have to move the wiki to HTML now
15:05:45 <melvster> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:05:45 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:05:48 <manu> Harry: so we can get a coherent draft out to the community
15:05:53 <manu> Harry: We wrap up the XG in two weeks!
15:05:58 <hhalpin> ACTION [DONE]: Mischa to put up wiki page about social networks deploying these technologies. (i.e. reference the one from GNU Social?)
15:05:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
15:06:01 <manu> Harry: I believe most of the actions have been done.
15:06:06 <mischat> people are welcome 
15:06:07 <Zakim> +??P46
15:06:08 <mischat> :)
15:06:09 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P46 is me
15:06:09 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:06:28 <manu> Harry: the only action that remains seems to be <unheard> use case - Daniel - looking at use case document and move them to a coherent phrasing
15:06:33 <cperey> cperey has joined #swxg
15:06:43 <mischat> s/<unheard>/SWAT/
15:06:47 <mischat> +1
15:06:50 <mischat> i am happy with that 
15:06:50 <manu> Harry: unless the group objects, if you could use the use case out to a separate document... does that work for folks?
15:06:52 <melvster> +1
15:06:54 <hhalpin> ACTION [CANCELLED] DKA to shorten too long use-cases and see if he can reference in SWAT test cases.
15:06:54 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [CANCELLED]
15:06:58 <manu> Scribe notes no objections
15:07:10 <hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin move use-case appendix to separate document.
15:07:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-177 - Move use-case appendix to separate document. [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-09-22].
15:07:44 <manu> mischat: One of the <unheard> is currently empty.
15:07:52 <manu> Harry: We'll have time during the next two weeks.
15:07:59 <hhalpin> [CANCEL] ACTION:  For diaspora to talk about being included in final report (interoperable code-basess agreed to SWAT tests?).
15:08:02 <manu> Harry: We're going to cancel the diaspora thing... we ran out of time.
15:08:03 <Zakim> + +1.617.848.aaff
15:08:08 <melvster> diaspora opens code later today here: http://github.com/diaspora
15:08:20 <manu> Mischa: I think Henry went through it... haven't had a chance to read through it.
15:08:23 <bblfish> hi
15:08:26 <mischat> hi
15:08:37 <manu> Henry: Distributed federated networks?
15:08:42 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: bblfish and mischa to write a new introductory paragraph with definition of social web and case for open-source/business use of standards.
15:08:42 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport
15:08:44 <manu> s/Henry/Harry/
15:08:56 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport
15:09:02 <manu> Henry: So I added one paragraph... "heres my attempt at a definition..."
15:09:14 <hhalpin> [CANCEL] ACTION: MacTed to add to intro a "user story" of why current approaches don't work.
15:09:19 <cperey> zakim, 848.aaff is me
15:09:19 <Zakim> sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '848.aaff'
15:09:24 <manu> Harry: Cancelling that action, then.
15:09:34 <cperey> :-)
15:09:36 <manu> Harry: tried to setup a call w/ the various browser vendors, do we have any on the call?
15:09:45 <cperey> zakim, aaff is me
15:09:45 <Zakim> +cperey; got it
15:09:48 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: hhalpin to set up HTML5/Interaction domain telecon before Sept. 
15:09:50 <manu> Harry: There is definitely intrest from Apple, Google, Mozilla on identity in the browser.
15:09:55 <manu> Harry: No answer on Opera yet.
15:10:05 <manu> Harry: There is enough interest to get that going.
15:10:09 <mischat> hello
15:10:17 <manu> Unknown: Hi, I'm from the Chrome team at Google.
15:10:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:10:20 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: bblfish (and paul maybe?) flesh out and draft identity section.
15:10:29 <hhalpin> s/Unknown/Dirk
15:10:33 <bblfish> who was that from Google?
15:11:19 <manu> Mischa: One more comment - all of the XRDFY type stuff... we need to review that.
15:11:22 <manu> Aza: I'm here
15:11:36 <aza> aza has joined #swxg
15:11:39 <manu> Harry: Paragraph on mobile seems to be done
15:11:42 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: venezia to do mobile paragraph
15:11:49 <manu> Harry: W3C strategy is to pull vendors in quickly.
15:11:49 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: hhalpin to work on strategy document
15:12:09 <hhalpin> 3. Aza Raskin on Privacy Icon
15:12:11 <manu> Topic: Privacy Icons
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15:12:59 <manu> Harry: From a W3C strategy perspective, we are revamping process to make it more lightweight.
15:13:13 <manu> Harry: Hope to have it sorted out by november.
15:13:26 <manu> Harry: Hopefully, more W3C resources to federated social web area.
15:13:35 <manu> Harry: Looking for more vendor input on digital identity.
15:13:47 <manu> Harry: W3C should support these identity efforts.
15:14:21 <manu> Harry: W3C is not quite sure what the right move to make is yet... which is why Aza is here today. To see if there is a clear sign. W3C would like to make a move in this area. Perhaps a workshop, Perhaps with OpenID Foundation.
15:14:30 <melvster> IIW Europe 11th October by the way
15:14:34 <manu> Harry: If there are compelling technical solutions on the table, W3C may move into a WG on that.
15:14:50 <manu> Harry: This is an issue that is near to W3C's CEO's heart.
15:15:02 <manu> his gooey identity-loving heart.
15:15:42 <manu> Someone3: So, last week at IW in DC there was some meetings - not public info yet, but general idea is there are a number of people involved in active client work.
15:16:04 <mischat> s/Someone3/Paul (higgin's project/
15:16:17 <manu> Paul: The gist of the meetings is that you're going to see a change in the ?IETF? and see some changes in the browser based on the Infocard experience... definitely decisions are starting to get made.
15:16:24 <melvster> Paul Trevithick
15:16:27 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
15:16:27 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:16:28 <mischat> there you go 
15:16:28 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:16:57 <manu> Harry: W3C is looking for some technical leadership from people that have been in this space for longer than them... Infocard has been around here for a very long time.
15:17:08 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/papers/privacy-ws-22.txt
15:17:27 <mischat> http://www.azarask.in/
15:17:27 <manu> Someone4: I'm the create lead for Firefox, used to head up User Experience at Mozilla - did Ubiquity, Geolocation spec, etc.
15:17:40 <mischat> s/Someone4/Aza Raskin/
15:17:53 <manu> Aza: Been working on Firefox4 features - working on Privacy for the Web.
15:18:08 <manu> Aza: Do a lot of design work - design focus - trying to understand the privacy space.
15:18:28 <melvster> manu: instead of typing Aza: each time you can just type '...'
15:18:40 <manu> Aza: Looking at P3P, Lorie Craynor Privacy finder, Nutrition labels - one of the things that we found were that these things were taking a taxonomical viewpoint.
15:18:54 <manu> Aza: We were letting the perfect be the enemy of the good - we wanted to focus on one question.
15:19:07 <mischat> http://www.slideshare.net/azaraskin/mozilla-privacy-icons-project
15:19:10 <manu> Aza: We do not want to make sure a user understands everything in a privacy policy - that is a difficult taks.
15:19:12 <mischat> slides ^^
15:19:42 <mischat> private broswer
15:19:53 <manu> Aza: Schematics - looking at things like Firefox anti-malware site protection.
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15:20:20 <manu> Aza: We fixed issues, but changes were not understandable to a end user.
15:20:31 <manu> Aza: So, we are asking what 'should' people care about in privacy?
15:20:44 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aagg - is perhaps Alan
15:20:46 <manu> Aza: That's the one question we're trying to answer... the fewer choices, the easier it is for people to understand and care.
15:20:57 <hhalpin> also folks my want to look at Zittrain and co.'s http://www.stopbadware.org/
15:21:24 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise 
15:21:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', mischat
15:21:24 <manu> Aza: Privacy often goes down the route of per-user or based on preferences, usually based on defaults - why not help people choose.
15:21:25 <pchampin> zakim, +1.760.705.aagg is me
15:21:25 <Zakim> sorry, pchampin, I do not recognize a party named '+1.760.705.aagg'
15:21:29 <Zakim> + +1.781.392.aahh
15:21:32 <manu> Aza: Problem is that people don't usually know what they want.
15:21:59 <manu> Aza: What do you want to eat? Difficult to answer.
15:22:09 <aza> http://www.flickr.com/photos/azaraskin/4786688290/in/photostream/
15:22:12 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
15:22:22 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan (9%)
15:22:24 <mischat> from Sören
15:22:28 <manu> Aza: Do you want delicious steak with a little bit of truffle oil and fois gras with a baked potato and mahi-mahi??? People find it easier to say yes to that.
15:22:42 <melvster> ah that's soeren's work, he's part of the SWXG too
15:22:50 <manu> Aza: most of US population can be identified down to name using only - zip code, birthday, gender
15:23:08 <manu> Aza: Those things people feel are not sensitive - first and last names are more sensitive than those previous three pieces of information.
15:23:24 <manu> Aza: People don't understand the meaning of giving up that data - so we're the experts, we need to help them understand.
15:23:41 <manu> Aza: But simultaneously, every time we ask a user what they don't care about - we've failed.
15:23:50 <manu> Aza: So this is how we ended up with the privacy icons stuff
15:23:51 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #swxg
15:23:57 <manu> Aza: What attributes of privacy should people care about?
15:24:23 <manu> ... I wanted to go into more basic stuff before delving into the icons.
15:24:34 <manu> ... the icons can be highly contentious, so we'll cover that last.
15:24:49 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:24:50 <manu> ... our goal is not to make this understandable by everyone.
15:24:56 <manu> ... we just need it to work for most people.
15:25:12 <manu> ... Privacy marketplace... we're not going after Facebook (yet) with Privacy policieis... 
15:25:32 <manu> ... we're focusing on places where Privacy already affects you.
15:25:39 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #swxg
15:25:44 <manu> ... places like sites that say they're not going to re-use your e-mail address.
15:25:53 <manu> ... will it change the way you use google or facebook? probably not
15:25:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:26:03 <manu> ... however, it may make sense on sites that you don't know anything about.
15:26:04 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?[IPcaller.a] is me
15:26:04 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?[IPcaller.a]'
15:26:18 <manu> ... we want to get adoptives to understand this transparency.
15:26:37 <manu> ... Washington Journal did a cover on all the diferent types of privacy policies that companies did
15:26:42 <manu> ... they had to do a ton of digging
15:26:47 <manu> ... we want to make it simpler
15:26:54 <manu> ... taxonimical view doesn't work - it's too much information.
15:27:09 <manu> ... writing a privacy policy is very company-specific (at least, that's what the lawyers want us to think)
15:27:25 <manu> ... when you use an icon, it gets bolted to the very end of the privacy policy.
15:27:36 <manu> ... "We do not sell data or barter with your data."
15:27:58 <manu> ... no matter what the privacy policy says, this is asserted somewhere in the privacy policy.
15:28:02 <manu> ... it's a minimum guarantee.
15:28:16 <mischat> http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/what-should-matter-in-privacy/
15:28:16 <manu> ... we're also trying really hard not to penalize business as usual.
15:28:33 <manu> ... it's a fail if people have to put up an icon that scares people.
15:28:41 <manu> ... is 3rd party sharing of data suspect?
15:28:46 <manu> ... it's not
15:29:08 <manu> ... amazon sharing your addresss with UPS to ship something to you is 3rd party sharing
15:29:14 <manu> ... but thats not bad.
15:29:25 <manu> ... we're still writing some of the legal behind some of the icons we're doing.
15:29:34 <manu> ... not everyone has to use a bad icon
15:29:43 <manu> ... last point that I want to bring up as background 
15:29:55 <manu> ... is that these icons are different from Creative Commons in a very important respect.
15:30:05 <karen> karen has joined #swxg
15:30:10 <manu> ... in CC, everyday authors have to figure out what they are to license their work under.
15:30:19 <manu> ... you have to be able to write what your work is licensed under.
15:30:39 <manu> ... with Privacy icons, you don't have to do the writing part... that's the job of the lawyer... we just needt o make sure these things are readable.
15:30:53 <manu> ... conditions for Privacy Icons are more lax when deciding what icon to use.
15:30:57 <manu> ... why Firefox, why now?
15:31:16 <manu> ... we thing that the taxonomical look didn't work well, and we don't think that the product people looked at it in this way before.
15:31:18 <aza> http://www.flickr.com/photos/azaraskin/4128966575/in/photostream/
15:31:23 <caribou> caribou has joined #swxg
15:31:25 <manu> ... we're looking at what identity in the browser looks like
15:31:28 <aza> http://www.flickr.com/photos/azaraskin/4156454152/in/photostream/
15:31:34 <manu> ... here are a couple of things that we're looking at right now
15:31:41 <manu> ... about what we're thinking of putting into firefox.
15:31:41 <aza> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/accountmanager/
15:32:04 <manu> ... the basic idea is that you don't need to do the whole signing in/signing out to a website.
15:32:09 <manu> ... browser should understand who you are
15:32:12 <bblfish> aza: Are you working on tying this in with the SSL layer?
15:32:13 <manu> ... Weave
15:32:20 <hhalpin> very nice design BTW
15:32:38 <manu> ... should understand all of your passwords - getting rid of login
15:32:40 <bblfish> very nice, I present it at all my talks
15:32:53 <paul> agreed
15:33:01 <manu> ... This is supposed to be a very fast thing for websites to implement - in 15 minutes.
15:33:12 <manu> ... So, if we manage to get something like this
15:33:20 <manu> ... these are early markups
15:33:32 <manu> ... if we do this, browsers become a user agent to all sites.
15:33:54 <manu> ... they are intermediaries of identity. If that is true, then we own the sign-in sign-out experience.
15:34:04 <manu> ... decreases sign-up time, increases conversion rate, etc.
15:34:10 <manu> ... lots of good things related to this.
15:34:22 <manu> ...sign in to a site using one button click.
15:34:38 <manu> ... this also means that we control the way in which end-users see the sign-up process.
15:34:47 <manu> ... we have a huge opportunity to affect the way the web works.
15:34:57 <manu> ... if this is the case, we can start bubbling up information about privacy policities.
15:35:05 <manu> ... Mozilla is very privacy-cognizant
15:35:29 <hhalpin> machine-readable - perhaps in RDFa?
15:35:31 <manu> ... We need to make sure people know what their privacy state is... we can tell the user how the information is used.
15:35:55 <manu> ... We think that's exciting... we can take a very pro-active standpoint
15:36:20 <manu> ... it also helps identify bad-actors... if they don't give any sort of machine readable form of privacy data.
15:36:36 <oshani> oshani has joined #swxg
15:36:37 <manu> ... So, that's the background.
15:36:51 <mischat> q+
15:36:53 <bblfish> q+
15:36:57 <manu> Aza: Questions?
15:36:58 <hhalpin> q+
15:37:01 <hhalpin> ack mischat
15:37:13 <manu> Mischat: I was wondering how people are going to be representing the privacy icons.
15:37:24 <manu> Mischat: If I am a provider, how do I display privacy icons?
15:37:41 <manu> Aza: We haven't delved into that yet - mainly because we want to figure out where to show these things in the interface.
15:37:49 <manu> Aza: What are the things that matter most to people.
15:38:10 <mischat> ok
15:38:11 <manu> Aza: Delving into how people link, how to display - is just things to figure out as we move down the path... no strong preferences as long as it is pragramtic.
15:38:13 <Tom> Tom has joined #swxg
15:38:18 <hhalpin> ack bblfish
15:38:29 <manu> q+ to offer RDFa communities help on this
15:38:34 <bblfish> http://chromium.googlecode.com/issues/attachment?aid=-3626469059404489666&name=Picture+1.png&token=c3f3619e4a2e8a18d0031d6e9f912422&inline=1
15:38:45 <manu> Henry: Wonder if you're interested in demo by Google 
15:38:52 <Zakim> -Alan
15:38:55 <bblfish> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=29784
15:39:14 <manu> Henry: Would be interesting to see how this would work with SSL layer
15:39:37 <manu> Henry: if you don't do things over https, then we don't really have secure identity.
15:39:57 <manu> Henry: Just to show how Google/Chrome/Firefox could complement each other.
15:40:09 <mischat> q+
15:40:35 <manu> Henry: There is a bug report on Firefox on SSL security issue - we really need Firefox to lead this
15:40:46 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
15:40:51 <hhalpin> http://www.phreedom.org/research/rogue-ca/
15:40:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.513.aaii
15:40:53 <manu> Aza: I'm always sad when CA's get more authority.
15:41:02 <manu> Henry: No, we can bypass CAs entirely with this.
15:41:04 <hhalpin> must be careful with CAs.
15:41:10 <manu> Henry: Client side certs don't need to have CAs
15:41:14 <aza> http://blog.sidstamm.com/2010/08/http-strict-transport-security-has.html
15:41:15 <manu> Henry: That's a big misunderstanding.
15:41:32 <manu> Aza: We did just add HSTS
15:41:50 <manu> Aza: We really need to discuss having the User Agent intermediate the login process.
15:41:56 <manu> Aza: This solves a big problem.
15:42:11 <manu> Aza: Both from a technical as well as a user perspective.
15:42:12 <bblfish> yes definitively allowing the user to see what he logged in as is really important
15:42:19 <manu> q?
15:42:41 <manu> Henry: I was trying to understand privacy icon work... they don't know there is absence, they know there is presence.
15:42:57 <manu> Henry: If you don't have a license, then we know you're a bad actor.
15:43:11 <manu> Henry: These icons may be everywhere?
15:43:23 <melvster> yes about 25%
15:43:24 <manu> Henry: There is a substantial minority of people that care about privacy.
15:43:34 <manu> s/Henry/Harry/
15:43:38 <manu> s/Henry/Harry/
15:43:39 <manu> s/Henry/Harry/
15:43:43 <melvster> 'privacy fundamentalists' was the category
15:44:09 <manu> Harry: The user must set this in their privacy settings... 
15:44:28 <manu> Harry: perhaps we can control what privacy icons appear based on the site that they refer to?
15:44:43 <manu> Aza: Privacy rules are pretty fascinating.
15:44:55 <manu> Aza: We want these icons to be important and universal.
15:45:08 <manu> Aza: if the site doesn't have it, perhaps we can crowd-source the icons to a site.
15:45:28 <manu> Aza: as soon as the site puts up info, they get a better icon
15:45:44 <manu> Aza: There are some questions of adoption, in the beginning, we wouldn't bubble the information up.
15:45:51 <hhalpin> q+
15:45:52 <manu> Aza: only the 20% that care would see it at first.
15:46:07 <manu> Aza: We hope that all major sites adopt it... but it'll take time.
15:46:12 <mischat> ack manu 
15:46:12 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to offer RDFa communities help on this
15:46:13 <hhalpin> ack manu
15:46:50 <mischat> Manu: asks about vetting the icons themselves, do you have any relationships with the CC group, for they have lots of experience in this space ?
15:47:11 <hhalpin> manu: any connections to creative commons
15:47:22 <manu> Aza: Yeah, so we've worked with Joi Ito and CC guys a bit
15:47:27 <hhalpin> manu: I'm sure RDFa community would be happy to help, I'm on the WG
15:47:33 <mischat> Manu: the microformats/microdata/ and rdfa, would help out, and would give input into this process 
15:47:34 <manu> Aza: As soon as we have some legal text, they'll help us there.
15:47:45 <manu> Aza: It's incredibly important to people like that.
15:48:04 <manu> Aza: As far as actual method of machine readability, there are a lot of smart people that will solve it.
15:48:13 <manu> Aza: Anything that is pragmatic makes sense.
15:48:15 <hhalpin> ack mischat
15:48:32 <manu> Mischa: Two questions - all this talk about decentralized social networks - does it fit?
15:48:47 <manu> ... Do you think privacy icons relate to that?
15:49:03 <manu> Aza: potentially, but one of the things we're ignoring is the social networking case.
15:49:11 <mischat> http://semanticidentity.com/Resources/Entries/2010/7/1_Virtual_Goods_+_ODRL_Workshop_2010.html
15:49:30 <manu> ... granted, when expectations of privacy on social network is violated.
15:49:35 <manu> ... people care at that point.
15:49:42 <manu> ... so there is this secondary use problem.
15:50:21 <manu> Mischa: Second question, identity in the browser: Is that basically a username/password management thing? Firefox Weave?
15:50:37 <manu> Mischa: You're not using client-side certs... not using passwords?
15:50:58 <mischat> ODRL machine readable privacy icons for social networking ^^
15:51:13 <manu> Aza: A little bit more than that... one time passwords... name, address, credit card... if people are okay with that in the browser, you can do progressive input to websites.
15:51:26 <hhalpin> contact API - DAP Working Group?
15:51:27 <manu> Aza: We should provide an API for this, so it's easier for sites to ask for that data.
15:51:32 <hhalpin> PortableContacts...
15:51:36 <manu> Aza: identity starts to become much more powerful at that point.
15:51:58 <manu> Aza: it's interesting middle-ground - the browser isn't just a client - it also could have a cloud-side to it.
15:52:07 <manu> Mischa: So, that's working with the DAP working group?
15:52:09 <manu> Aza: Yes.
15:52:39 <manu> Mischa: How does privacy icons relate to that group?
15:52:46 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/report.html
15:52:49 <manu> Aza: Really like that approach - these are two complementary approaches.
15:52:52 <mischat> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/privacy-rulesets/
15:53:03 <manu> Aza: Especially around secondary use... many things boil down to that.
15:53:06 <manu> q?
15:53:32 <manu> Harry: Quite interesting, going in direction where it could work with federated social networks.
15:54:00 <manu> Harry: Question that I have is: What is the cross-browser work in this area? You could just push this into Firefox when ready.
15:54:09 <manu> Harry: People most interested in Privacy probably also use Firefox.
15:54:34 <manu> Harry: There are other browsers that have interest in this area - do you think there is room for cross-browser work?
15:54:45 <manu> Aza: yes, the browser agents are always collaborating in some ways.
15:55:02 <manu> Aza: We are also competing... but real interest is in making the web better.
15:55:11 <mischat> q+ 
15:55:13 <mischat> :)
15:55:17 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
15:55:19 <manu> Aza: we'll see other browser vendors do this if it's important.
15:55:33 <hhalpin> then the problem is also multiple devices...
15:55:35 <hhalpin> like identity transfer
15:55:40 <manu> Aza: It's not required that it happens everywhere re: Privacy Icons.
15:55:46 <manu> Aza: helps us bootstrap much faster.
15:56:27 <manu> Aza: Making all user agents do it? Maybe we can popularize it?
15:56:47 <manu> ... maybe if we can get a few million to care about it... that would be great.
15:56:57 <manu> Harry: What about identity over multiple devices?
15:57:06 <dpranke> i can chime in at some point - there's definitely a place and a desire for browser vendors to work together on identity. probably on privacy as well
15:57:14 <hhalpin> http://www.links.org/?p=932
15:57:19 <manu> Harry: Are you guys looking at that space as well? How do you transfer identity over multiple devices - Nigori protocol like stuff?
15:57:25 <hhalpin> q+ dpranke
15:57:42 <manu> Aza: I'm not the best person to talk about this - Firefox 4 has sync stuff
15:58:05 <manu> Aza: I can transfer where I'm browsing, passwords, etc, between browsers.
15:58:28 <manu> Aza: As long as experience gets richer and richer, that "identity" will get synched across from point to point.
15:58:33 <hhalpin> ack dpranke
15:58:35 <mischat> sure, you ask my question hhalpin 
15:58:36 <manu> Aza: just to make sure that all devices are in sync
15:59:02 <manu> Dirk: I agree with almost everything that Aza has said - the days of us using one browser on one computer are going away.
15:59:13 <Zakim> -cperey
15:59:24 <manu> Dirk: we need to interoperate across browsers.
15:59:32 <cperey> bye bye!
15:59:37 <mischat> bye cperey 
15:59:37 <manu> Dirk: vendors need to interoperate across browsers.
15:59:43 <cperey> thank you, very interesting talk and discussion!
15:59:47 <hhalpin> Role of the W3C in this sort of work? Workshop? Group?
15:59:47 <manu> Harry: Do you think there is a role for W3C here?
15:59:56 <manu> Dirk: I think there is always a role for W3C to work together... 
16:00:04 <manu> Dirk: I'm still trying to understand how we can work together.
16:00:14 <Zakim> - +1.781.416.aacc
16:00:22 <manu> Harry: W3C is definitely interest in work around this.
16:00:29 <hhalpin> ack mischat
16:00:35 <dpranke> one more thing … the nigori protocol is definitely interesting
16:00:45 <manu> Mischa: When you're thinking about identity, are you always thinking it's going to be inside the browser? Or is there a place for cloud-based identity.
16:00:50 <Zakim> -Thomas
16:00:59 <manu> Aza: Whatever solution we go with, it has to be federated - it has to be distributed.
16:01:09 <manu> Aza: We need best-in-class identity via the browser.
16:01:11 <melvster> +1 set up your own servers, yay! 
16:01:12 <hhalpin> agreed re nigori protocol
16:01:17 <manu> Aza: You shouldn't have to remember your identity.
16:01:28 <manu> Aza: OpenID is a good example of a route that we don't want to go.
16:01:37 <hhalpin> if you want to chime in on that dirk, just chime in right after mischa.
16:01:46 <manu> Aza: Always want an option to do federated identity.
16:01:49 <bblfish> that is what WebID is for :-) solving the nascar problem - login without typing username or password, in one click
16:02:13 <manu> Dirk: Nigori is interesting in-so-far as distributing secrets in the cloud.
16:02:22 <hhalpin> yes, we should definitely ping mike hanson for his opinion
16:02:43 <manu> Dirk: There are people that are not going to be happy with one company knowing all of your information... so Nigori is an interesting answer to that. I also think WebID is very intersting.
16:02:53 <bblfish> cool :-)
16:02:54 <manu> Dirk: The problem with OpenID is the UI/Nascar problem.
16:03:06 <manu> Harry: Any more final questions? We're at the end of the hour.
16:03:09 <bblfish> (unemployed now so always happy to help out)
16:03:10 <aza> http://www.flickr.com/photos/azaraskin/4796824084/
16:03:12 <mischat> !?!?
16:03:30 <Zakim> - +1.617.513.aaii
16:03:32 <hhalpin> q?
16:03:38 <manu> Mischa - this is what the NASCAR problem is about: http://xauth.org/info/
16:03:44 <dpranke> NASCAR - you have to put a whole bunch of icons onto the page
16:03:56 <manu> Aza: 3rd party sharing of PII for purposes that you don't intend.
16:04:01 <dpranke> and end up looking like a stock car :)
16:04:08 <manu> Aza: These are not mutually exclusive icons...
16:04:32 <manu> Aza: data could be given to law enforcement.
16:04:39 <manu> Aza: warrant or not to get data (icon)
16:05:04 <manu> Aza: Legal nightmare, at times.
16:05:18 <mischat> these slides, describe them http://www.slideshare.net/azaraskin/mozilla-privacy-icons-project
16:05:19 <manu> Aza: Cannot talk about whether or not you can delete or export PII data (icon)
16:05:27 <manu> Aza: How long is your data kept for (icon)
16:05:35 <manu> Aza: 3 months, 9 months, 18 months, etc.
16:05:54 <Zakim> - +1.781.392.aahh
16:06:02 <manu> Aza: Ads - do you know wheter a site is using ads - don't need an icon for that, but behavioral tracking is difficult (icon)
16:06:30 <manu> Aza: Does the site give the data to an Ad network? too finiky to add, but it's our strawman - some more thinking to do on that.
16:07:01 <manu> Aza: We will need to tweak these icons - what can and can't you do - how can the icons be used on our site.
16:07:08 <manu> Aza: We are going to eat our own dogfood.
16:07:15 <bblfish> cool
16:07:37 <manu> Harry: Let us know how you want W3C to track or help with your work.
16:07:50 <dpranke> cheers!
16:07:59 <bblfish> thanks all
16:08:21 <hhalpin> trackbot, meeting adjourned
16:08:21 <trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, meeting adjourned'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:08:54 <Zakim> - +1.510.931.aadd
16:08:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:08:58 <Zakim> - +1.650.299.aaee
16:08:59 <Zakim> -mischat
16:10:03 <mischat> um
16:10:05 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:10:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, MacTed (muted), hhalpin, melvster, [IPcaller.a]
16:10:11 <melvster> rdf is still in mozilla
16:10:12 <mischat> are things needed to make the minutes and stuff
16:10:13 <aza> aza has left #swxg
16:10:19 <melvster> need to upgrade to rdflib
16:10:20 <mischat> rdf is still in mozilla 
16:10:28 <mischat> they were super early adopters 
16:10:35 <melvster> it wasnt updated for ages
16:10:51 <melvster> also look at the tabulator library ...
16:11:51 <melvster> i think danbri was maintaining the rdf thing in mozilla :)
16:12:06 <melvster> i could be wrong, but he knows about it at least
16:15:20 <dpranke> dpranke has left #swxg
16:16:11 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:16:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, MacTed (muted), hhalpin, melvster, [IPcaller.a]
16:18:13 <mischat> iirc the namespaces they uses on mozilla.org aren't there anymore 
16:18:15 <mischat> hhalpin: 
16:18:21 <mischat> can you make the minutes and stuff 
16:18:27 <mischat> i dont know how to do it 
16:18:34 <hhalpin> yes
16:18:42 <hhalpin> it's already done
16:18:53 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
16:18:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:18:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.961.aaaa, manu, +44.208.439.aabb, MacTed, mischat, hhalpin, +1.781.416.aacc, +1.510.931.aadd, +1.650.299.aaee, melvster,
16:18:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:18:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:18:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:18:55 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-actions.rdf :
16:18:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin move use-case appendix to separate document. [1]
16:18:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/15-swxg-irc#T15-07-10
16:18:57 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant, +1.617.848.aaff, cperey, [IPcaller], Thomas, +1.760.705.aagg, +1.781.392.aahh, +1.617.513.aaii