14:52:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:52:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-irc
14:52:20 <csma> Zakim, this will be RIF
14:52:20 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:29 <csma> rrsagent, make logs public
14:52:48 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:53:17 <csma> Regrets: MikeDean, GaryHallmark
14:53:35 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/0010.html
14:54:03 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
14:54:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html csma
14:54:36 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:54:36 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:54:42 <csma> item+ Admin
14:54:51 <csma> agendum+ Admin
14:54:59 <csma> agendum+ Liaisons
14:55:05 <csma> agendum+ Actions review
14:55:23 <csma> agendum+ RIF Primer
14:55:34 <csma> agendum+ RIF-XML data
14:55:44 <csma> agendum+ RIF in RDF
14:55:49 <csma> agendum+ UCR
14:56:09 <csma> agendum+ Test Cases
14:56:25 <csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting: 21 Sept?)
14:59:06 <AxelPolleres> I am sorry, but I can't attend today... as for RIF in RDF, I have drafted some text on the semantics of RIF-in-RDF which works for me: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_In_RDF
14:59:11 <AxelPolleres> sections 7 and 8
14:59:38 <csma> Hi Axel,
14:59:54 <csma> Can you send that text to the public mailing list, please?
15:00:33 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:06 <AxelPolleres> I see that Dave sent a review already.
15:01:12 <AxelPolleres> I have to look into this.
15:01:16 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:19 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #RIF
15:01:25 <Leora> Leora has joined #rif
15:01:33 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/mid/1284405398.2075.0.camel@dave-desktop
15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P14
15:01:35 <csma> Problems with Zakim France number
15:01:43 <csma> :-(
15:01:58 <Zakim> + +1.703.312.aaaa
15:02:12 <Leora> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:30 <Zakim> +Leora; got it
15:02:44 <Zakim> +??P35
15:02:59 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:03:08 <csma> Zakim GB does not seem to work, either :-(
15:03:28 <Leora> is anyone talking? I can't hear a thing.
15:03:36 <StellaMitchell> I hear typing
15:03:58 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:04:15 <Leora> Oh, that's probably me you hear.
15:04:20 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:20 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:04:23 <Leora> I can't figure out how to mute.
15:04:26 <Zakim> + +33.1.49.08.aabb
15:04:27 <Leora> zakim, please mute me
15:04:29 <Zakim> Leora should now be muted
15:04:36 <Leora> okay,  figured it out. ;)
15:04:41 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
15:04:41 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:04:50 <Leora> Stella, do you still hear me typing?
15:04:52 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ??p35 is me
15:04:52 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:55 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see DaveReynolds, Leora (muted), StellaMitchell, Harold, csma
15:05:20 <AxelPolleres> Dave, basically, I still think/hope that the extraction of encoded rulesets is possible, essentially, it seems that you can extract everything from "below" a focus-node that has some RIF properties.
15:05:26 <csma> Scribe: Dave Reynolds
15:05:36 <csma> scribenick: DaveReynolds
15:05:42 <DaveReynolds> Axel - disagree but can't scribe and discuss at same time :)
15:06:01 <AxelPolleres> likely though, we'd need to define what is a well-formed RIF/RDF document, that allows such exttraction... ok, let's take this to email
15:06:50 <csma> Scribe: Harold Boley
15:06:56 <Leora> csma, did you ask me something?
15:06:59 <Leora> I couldn't hear
15:07:00 <csma> Scribenick: Harold
15:07:05 <Leora> I guess not.
15:07:05 <csma> next item
15:07:09 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:07:25 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0001/24-rif-minutes.html
15:07:39 <csma> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon
15:08:04 <StellaMitchell> +1
15:08:06 <csma> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of Aug 24 telecon
15:08:27 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Sep/att-0009/rif-mins-7-Sept-2010.html
15:08:41 <csma> PROPOSED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon
15:08:50 <StellaMitchell> +1
15:08:54 <Leora> +1
15:08:56 <csma> RESOLVED: Approve the minutes of Sept 7 telecon
15:09:15 <csma> next item
15:09:24 <Leora> zakim, please unmute me
15:09:24 <Zakim> Leora should no longer be muted
15:09:52 <csma> next item
15:10:02 <csma> zakim, close agendum 2
15:10:02 <Zakim> agendum 2, Liaisons, closed
15:10:03 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:10:04 <Zakim> 3. Actions review [from csma]
15:10:10 <csma> next item
15:11:57 <StellaMitchell> close action-1050
15:11:57 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:13:06 <csma> Zakim, this is rif
15:13:06 <Zakim> csma, this was already SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:13:07 <Zakim> ok, csma; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:13:18 <csma> close ACTION-1050
15:13:18 <trackbot> ACTION-1050 Remove RIF syntax from UCR closed
15:13:58 <StellaMitchell> close action-1049
15:13:58 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:15:14 <csma> next item
15:15:35 <Harold> Leora: Ready for review.
15:16:06 <Harold> ... Last thing is compatibility section: RDF, OWL 2.
15:16:30 <ChrisW> I just finished updating the Test Cases section of PRimer
15:18:22 <Harold> Christian: Should we add compatibility with XML? As section 7.3?
15:18:43 <Harold> Leora: I could do it.
15:19:05 <Leora> I can do a short paragraph on compatibility with XML.
15:19:17 <Leora> I haven't yet read your document,  Christian.
15:19:25 <Leora> So honestly, this would be a short, brief document.
15:19:36 <Leora> If there is no example, it would be helpful to get an example.
15:19:51 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:19:59 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temproarily me
15:19:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ibm is temproarily me', ChrisW
15:20:05 <Harold> Christian: Reviewers are Gary and Sandro.
15:20:08 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:20:08 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:20:24 <Leora> s/short, brief document/short, brief paragraph
15:21:24 <Harold> Christian: Will ask Gary and Sandro to read it by next week.
15:21:25 <StellaMitchell> s/brief document/brief paragraph/
15:21:34 <csma> action: csma to send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer
15:21:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1052 - Send email to Gary and sandro re reviewing Primer [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-09-21].
15:21:49 <csma> next ietm
15:21:54 <csma> next item
15:22:51 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/XML-Data_alt
15:23:16 <Zakim> + +1.425.844.aacc
15:23:21 <Harold>  Christian: Based on discussion last week, redrafted the document, keeping the semantics but going back to XPath syntax.
15:23:58 <Harold> ... Much shortened the document.
15:24:09 <Harold> ... Not quite finished.
15:24:25 <Leora> zakim, please mute me
15:24:25 <Zakim> Leora should now be muted
15:24:36 <Harold> ... Semantic defined for any XPath expression.
15:25:34 <Harold> ... Sometimes only small subset used.
15:26:19 <Leora> Okay - -- so I should read the doc linked above?
15:26:38 <Harold> Christian: Yes.
15:26:46 <Leora> Christian, sorry --- I just didn't really hear you. Phone is fuzzy.
15:27:50 <Harold> Christian: Will add appendices.
15:28:32 <Harold> ... Will ask Michael if he can review it.
15:29:25 <Harold> Dave: References to XPath specs might be better than copying snippets.
15:29:39 <Harold> ... Otherwise there may be a maintenance issue.
15:30:12 <Harold> Christian: Copies are just non-normative.
15:30:33 <Harold> Dave: If not too many, then that's fair.
15:31:06 <Harold> Christian: Just terms that are used in several places such as "What is a sequence?".
15:32:28 <Harold> Sandro: What does the XML render in Presentation Syntax?
15:33:13 <Harold> s/What/How/
15:33:19 <csma> <Const type=...>child::schema-element(ex:Account)</Const>
15:39:30 <csma> "ex:Account"
15:40:36 <csma> ?x["child::schema-element(ex:Account)"->value]
15:40:36 <Harold> ***Lengthy Christian/Sandro discussion about PS/XML syntaxes***
15:42:09 <csma> For all the element nodes e ∈ E, Itruth(Iframe(IDM(e))(IC("expr"^^xs:string), RIFValue(e, expr))) = t (true)
15:42:44 <sandro> proposed test case:    someone assert some frames with xpath-syntax slot names.
15:43:58 <csma> next item
15:44:30 <Harold> Christian/Sandro: Have two reviews.
15:44:51 <Harold> Dave: Small bug in the table.
15:45:18 <sandro> DaveReynolds: small bug in table; main issue is with usedWithProfile -- defn in there requires you to be able to subtract a rif ruleset out of an RDF graph
15:45:43 <Harold> ... Substantial comments: Semantics currently requires to 'subtract' rule sets.
15:45:45 <sandro> DaveReynolds: an algo for doing that subtraction isn't provided, and I don't think it's possible.
15:46:18 <csma> Axel, are you here?
15:46:24 <Harold> ... Suggest to change semantics to omit subtraction.
15:46:27 <csma> q?
15:47:10 <Harold> Sandro: Axel was interested in subtraction, having a use case for it.
15:47:49 <Harold> ... Avoid 'pollution' by unnecessary rules.
15:48:13 <Harold> ... But one could live them, just querying the rest.
15:49:30 <Harold>  Dave: Transform rules with rules. Secure subtraction.
15:49:45 <csma> s/live/leave/
15:50:06 <Harold> Sandro: Dave's proposal is good.
15:50:11 <sandro> sandro: I think DaveReynolds's proposal to just remove the usedWithProfile triple is good.
15:51:20 <Leora> zakim, please unmute me
15:51:20 <Zakim> Leora should no longer be muted
15:51:27 <ChrisW> Leora, I don't think the using dataypes example works
15:51:33 <csma> q?
15:51:37 <Harold> Sandro: Leora asks for more examples.
15:51:55 <Harold> ... Will do that, too, once back from vacation.
15:52:13 <ChrisW> in particular the "at least 5 years ago" constraint looks to me like "after the year 5"
15:52:37 <Harold> Leora: Examples would help with how mapping is done and more clear.
15:52:43 <Leora> very likely, Chris.
15:53:07 <Harold> Sandro: Currently one big example (in appendix).
15:53:22 <Leora> Chris, I actually had a question about the representation of years.
15:53:38 <Harold> ... The document was not meant to be terribly tutorial.
15:54:21 <ChrisW> ok
15:54:30 <Harold> Leora: Little more than Hello World example in intro.
15:54:31 <Leora> Chris, let me revisit the examples.
15:54:45 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda?
15:54:45 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:54:47 <Zakim> 6. RIF in RDF [from csma]
15:54:47 <Zakim> 7. UCR [from csma]
15:54:49 <Zakim> 8. Test Cases [from csma]
15:54:50 <Zakim> 9. AOB (next meeting: 21 Sept?) [from csma]
15:54:51 <ChrisW> next item
15:55:08 <Leora> And apologies for talking about both the primer and  rif in rdf 
15:55:16 <Leora> at the same time
15:55:53 <Harold> Chris: Document is good now.
15:56:56 <Harold> Leora: UC 4.4
15:57:35 <Zakim> -csma
15:58:28 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
16:00:48 <Zakim> +??P27
16:01:09 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:01:20 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (30%), Leora (19%)
16:01:34 <ChrisW> zakim, drop ??P27
16:01:34 <Zakim> ??P27 is being disconnected
16:01:36 <Zakim> -??P27
16:02:56 <Zakim> +??P39
16:03:27 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P39 is me
16:03:27 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:03:41 <Harold> ***Lengthy Chris/Leora discussion about modal logic***
16:04:31 <AdrianP> unfortunately I have bad WLAN quality
16:04:35 <Harold> Chris: Swap two sections, so shorter one goes earlier.
16:04:58 <ChrisW> FORALL ?x AND (encoding(?x) believes(Leora,ugly(?x)))
16:05:44 <Harold> Leora: Will fix things in next 24 hours.
16:05:58 <Leora> Harold, that was a lengthy discussion about to what extent sentences that would ordinarily be represented in  modal logic, or at least, directly in fol using possible-worlds semantics
16:06:17 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:06:46 <Leora> but which could possibly be represented, in a kludgey way in BLD.
16:06:52 <Harold> s/two sections/two sections (4 and 5)/
16:06:54 <ChrisW> next item
16:06:59 <Leora> Chris, your FOL formula is false.
16:07:11 <Leora> Not to mention that it mentions belief, explicitly!
16:07:18 <Zakim> +??P24
16:07:22 <Harold> Chris: Reviewed UCR, need one more.
16:07:37 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:38 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:07:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see DaveReynolds, Leora, StellaMitchell, Harold, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, ??P24
16:07:43 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:07:50 <StellaMitchell> I can review UCR
16:08:04 <ChrisW> action: Stella to review UCR
16:08:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1053 - Review UCR [on Stella Mitchell - due 2010-09-21].
16:12:59 <StellaMitchell> one more left to apprive
16:14:24 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modeling_Brain_Anatomy
16:14:39 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy
16:14:43 <AdrianP> +1 for the test case
16:14:53 <ChrisW> +1
16:14:53 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:14:54 <Leora> +1
16:15:08 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve Modeling Brain Anatomy
16:15:37 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css
16:19:07 <ChrisW> meet again in 1 week
16:19:21 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:19:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +33.1.49.08.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP
16:19:26 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:19:29 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/14-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:19:32 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:19:33 <Zakim> -Leora
16:19:41 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:19:47 <AdrianP> bye
16:19:51 <Zakim> -Harold
16:21:28 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:21:30 <Zakim> - +1.425.844.aacc
16:21:32 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:21:34 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.703.312.aaaa, Leora, DaveReynolds, Harold, +33.1.49.08.aabb, csma, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, +1.425.844.aacc, AdrianP