IRC log of ua on 2010-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:48 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:53:48 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc
16:53:50 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:50 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:53:52 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:53:52 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:53:53 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:53:53 [trackbot]: Date: 09 September 2010
16:54:10 [AllanJ]: chair: JimAllan_KellyFord
16:57:00 [kford]: kford has joined #ua
16:57:03 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:10 [Zakim]: + +1.512.206.aaaa
16:57:18 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
16:57:25 [AllanJ]: zakim, aaaa is really AllanJ
16:57:25 [Zakim]: +AllanJ; got it
16:57:27 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
16:57:27 [Zakim]: I see nothing on the agenda
16:57:50 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ Agenda+ HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:58:13 [kford]: Agenda+ Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/
16:58:14 [kford]: Agenda+ HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html
16:58:16 [kford]: Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:58:33 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda
16:58:33 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
16:58:38 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda?
16:58:38 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:58:39 [Zakim]: 1. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ Agenda+ HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper -
16:58:42 [Zakim]: ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html Agenda+ Browser Implementations [from AllanJ]
16:58:45 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
16:58:46 [Zakim]: 3. HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html [from kford]
16:58:49 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from kford]
16:59:00 [AllanJ]: zakim, close item 1
16:59:00 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ Agenda+ HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper -
16:59:02 [Zakim]: ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html Agenda+ Browser Implementations, closed
16:59:04 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:59:05 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
16:59:07 [Zakim]: + +1.425.895.aabb
16:59:28 [AllanJ]: zakim, aabb is really Greg
16:59:28 [Zakim]: +Greg; got it
16:59:52 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
16:59:55 [Zakim]: + +1.425.883.aacc
17:00:10 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:10 [kford]: zakim, 425-883-aaaa is kford
17:00:10 [Zakim]: sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '425-883-aaaa'
17:00:28 [kford]: zakim, 425-883-aacc is kford
17:00:28 [Zakim]: sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '425-883-aacc'
17:00:51 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:05 [kford]: zakim, 425.883.aacc is kford
17:01:05 [Zakim]: sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '425.883.aacc'
17:01:06 [sharper]: sharper has joined #ua
17:01:24 [oedipus_away]: agenda+ HTML WG Deadline for bug submission 2010-10-01
17:01:41 [sharper]: Zakim, code?
17:01:41 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:01:43 [kford]: zakim, aacc is kford
17:01:43 [Zakim]: +kford; got it
17:01:46 [oedipus_away]: agenda+ Accesskey Replacement Requirements
17:02:00 [oedipus_away]: scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
17:02:08 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:02:11 [oedipus_away]: scribenick: oedipus
17:02:34 [kford]: zakim, agenda
17:02:34 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', kford
17:02:35 [Zakim]: + +1.617.325.aadd
17:02:41 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
17:02:41 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:43 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:02:46 [Zakim]: 3. HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html [from kford]
17:02:46 [oedipus_away]: agenda+ Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby)
17:02:49 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:02:51 [Zakim]: 5. HTML WG Deadline for bug submission 2010-10-01 [from oedipus_away]
17:02:53 [Zakim]: 6. Accesskey Replacement Requirements [from oedipus_away]
17:02:53 [Jan]: Jan has joined #ua
17:02:59 [AllanJ]: zakim, aadd is really KimPatch
17:02:59 [Zakim]: +KimPatch; got it
17:02:59 [Jan]: zakim, code?
17:03:01 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:03:26 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:03:29 [Zakim]: +??P5
17:03:36 [Zakim]: +??P7
17:03:41 [sharper]: zakim, ??P7 is sharper
17:03:42 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
17:03:44 [Jan]: zakim, ??P5 is really Jan
17:03:44 [Zakim]: +Jan; got it
17:03:49 [kford]: we should take up the browser item last, I think that is item 5.
17:03:50 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make log public
17:03:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:04:35 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda
17:04:35 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
17:04:38 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda?
17:04:38 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:39 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:04:42 [Zakim]: 3. HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html [from kford]
17:04:46 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:04:48 [Zakim]: 5. HTML WG Deadline for bug submission 2010-10-01 [from oedipus_away]
17:04:49 [Zakim]: 6. Accesskey Replacement Requirements [from oedipus_away]
17:04:51 [Zakim]: 7. Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby) [from oedipus_away]
17:05:09 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Announcements
17:05:56 [oedipus]: JA: take up agendum 5 first -- HTML WG deadline for bug submission 2010-10-01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
17:06:16 [oedipus]: GJR: full details of HTML5 timeline: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
17:07:49 [AllanJ]: zakim, close item 5
17:07:49 [Zakim]: agendum 5, HTML WG Deadline for bug submission 2010-10-01, closed
17:07:50 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:51 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:07:56 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
17:08:03 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
17:08:34 [kford]: Gregory: I need to work with folks to get an access key replacement.
17:09:13 [kford]: Gregory: There were 9 requirements from PFWG and I've logged various replies on a wiki page.
17:09:43 [kford]: Gregory: I need to finish the process of going through 4.1 and making sure it reflects all the requirements that PF has.
17:09:59 [kford]: Gregory: Does that seem like a reasonale process?
17:10:06 [kford]: JA: Yes.
17:10:27 [kford]: Gregory asks if there other places in UAAG to look.
17:10:54 [kford]: Group replying we do not think so but can check again.
17:11:25 [kford]: Group now thinking need to look under some parts of perceivable section.
17:11:42 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:11:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html kford
17:12:33 [kford]: Gregory: I'll break this down and hopefully we can discuss this next week.
17:12:34 [Greg]: Here is the SC about presenting shortcut keys: 4.1.6 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control...
17:12:36 [Greg]: ...plus t"). (Level A)
17:13:03 [kford]: zakim, close this item
17:13:03 [Zakim]: I do not know what agendum had been taken up, kford
17:13:28 [kford]: zakim, close item 6
17:13:28 [Zakim]: agendum 6, Accesskey Replacement Requirements, closed
17:13:29 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:30 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:14:31 [oedipus]: zakim, open item 7
17:14:31 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby)" taken up [from oedipus_away]
17:14:35 [oedipus]: longdesc: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs - HTML A11y TF to determine if shoud be logged as issue (since there is no mechanism currently in HTML5 that provides for a verbose descriptor) or as a bug
17:14:39 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
17:14:39 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:14:41 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:14:44 [Zakim]: 3. HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html [from kford]
17:14:47 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from kford]
17:14:49 [Zakim]: 7. Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby) [from oedipus_away]
17:15:00 [kford]: zakim, take up item 7
17:15:00 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby)" taken up [from oedipus_away]
17:15:34 [kford]: Gregory, as everyoe knows, longdesc has been removed from HTML5. Currently, no replacement for a verbose descriptor.
17:15:57 [kford]: Gregory: Would be good if people could review requirements.
17:16:14 [oedipus]: 1. A programmatic mechanism to reference a specific set of structured content, internal (enhanced describedby model) or external (HTML4 longdesc model) to the document containing the described image.
17:16:19 [oedipus]: 2. A way to inform users and authors that a description is present/available.
17:16:23 [oedipus]: 3. A device independent way to access the descriptive content.
17:16:27 [oedipus]: 4. An explicit provision that accessing descriptive content, whether internal or external to the document containing the image, does NOT take the user away from the user's position in the document containing the image where the verbose descriptor was invoked;
17:16:30 [oedipus]: 5. A way to provide user control over exposition of the descriptor so that rendering of the image and its description is not an either/or proposition. (A visual indicator of the description should NOT be a forced visual encumbrance on sighted users by default).
17:16:34 [oedipus]: 6. A method to reference a longer description of an image, without including the content in the main flow of a page.
17:17:08 [kford]: Gregory: Two possibilities. Keep longdesc with some adjustment.
17:17:40 [kford]: Gregory: Other possibility is aria describedby
17:17:57 [kford]: Gregory: Each of these has limitations.
17:18:47 [kford]: Gregory: Bugs have been filed on this.
17:19:27 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10455
17:19:44 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10017
17:20:35 [oedipus]: jeanne, bugzilla bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
17:21:15 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
17:21:24 [kford]: Action: kford to look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other also indicating they will look.
17:21:24 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-446 - Look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other also indicating they will look. [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-09-16].
17:21:37 [kford]: zakim, close item 7
17:21:37 [Zakim]: agendum 7, Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native describedby), closed
17:21:40 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:42 [Zakim]: 2. Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from kford]
17:22:20 [kford]: zakim, take up item 3
17:22:20 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html" taken up [from kford]
17:22:36 [oedipus]: JA: reply not made to list yet
17:23:00 [oedipus]: JA: sent message to list -- 5 bugs reported by HTML A11y TF as UAWG concerns
17:24:01 [oedipus]: JA: first: 8647 - tab order for IFRAME (when IFRAME processed, tab order in doc should be outside iframe, when get into iframe follow its tab order, when move off iframe, resume tab order at next tab following last tab that put user in iframe
17:24:25 [oedipus]: JA: might be similar to flash issues where things get inserted in DOM tree -- tab into and tab out into regular content and document flow
17:24:33 [oedipus]: JA: compound document implications
17:25:17 [oedipus]: JA: question: in IE and FF can use F6 to move between frames on windows platform -- if in IFRAME should be able to use F6 to jump from IFrame to main content
17:25:40 [oedipus]: GL: F6 is cycle through frames -- don't know if concept of main frame / parent exists
17:25:53 [oedipus]: GL: main viewport in which other viewports are contained
17:26:01 [oedipus]: KF: what if have page with 2 frames but no iframe
17:26:31 [oedipus]: KP: important to have a sure thing -- if toggling between things cannot do command to go to place x and do something
17:26:35 [oedipus]: JA: can with AT
17:26:42 [oedipus]: KP: cannot do it with speech with a toggle
17:26:54 [oedipus]: KP: useful to have command to put to known place
17:27:04 [oedipus]: q+ to say need aria role=iframe
17:27:25 [oedipus]: KP: really useful thing to be able to directly get to a known place
17:27:56 [oedipus]: KF: IE design philosophy -- F6 is a pane-cycling key -- ALT+D (address bar) is known place to return
17:28:08 [oedipus]: KF: if use SHIFT+F6 to navigate panes in reverse
17:28:12 [oedipus]: q
17:28:13 [oedipus]: q?
17:28:30 [oedipus]: ack oe
17:28:30 [Zakim]: oedipus, you wanted to say need aria role=iframe
17:29:00 [oedipus]: GJR: aria role=iframe that would make the iframe a landmark that could be easily navigated to
17:29:27 [oedipus]: JA: seems like overkill -- iframe just another type of frame -- can use F6 to jump between iframe
17:29:51 [oedipus]: JA: iframe should show up as part of frames list -- 1 less thing for author to have to do and get wrong
17:30:27 [oedipus]: KF: address in HTML5 or in UAAG?
17:30:43 [oedipus]: JA: this is one that UAAG needs to address unless go with role=iframe
17:31:04 [oedipus]: GJR: role=iframe is a non-starter -- already have a last call draft in place
17:31:37 [oedipus]: GJR: there has been talk of ARIA 1.1 as opposed to waiting for ARIA 2.0 for which there is an extensive wish list
17:32:54 [oedipus]: JA: recommend adding GL to UAAG if don't already have one
17:33:36 [oedipus]: proposed resolution: address bug 8647 in UAAG 2.0
17:33:56 [oedipus]: resolution: address bug 8647 in UAAG 2.0
17:34:04 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:34:31 [oedipus]: JA: next bug title attribute on iframe
17:34:44 [oedipus]: JA: suggest including advice on having title on IFRAME for navigation
17:35:27 [oedipus]: JA: HTML4 had @name ATs used to identify iframe to user
17:35:51 [oedipus]: JA: AT or other mechanism could use @name -- issue: @name is not required -- if were would be beneficial
17:36:08 [oedipus]: GJR: didn't @name get deprecated in favor of @id
17:36:17 [oedipus]: JA: name attribute required?
17:36:32 [oedipus]: KF: this is on iframe specifically?
17:36:46 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/IFRAME
17:37:17 [oedipus]: KF: @name becomes title for embedded document
17:37:54 [oedipus]: JA: HomePageReader used to go to URI of IFRAME src and pull out its TITLE -- otherwise used @name value
17:39:09 [oedipus]: JA: what to do?
17:39:57 [oedipus]: JA: iframe should be treated as frames and use a11y stuff used for frames -- UAAG should address how to handle FRAME and IFRAME -- would be nice if @name was required -- right now @name, @id, and @title are optional
17:40:18 [oedipus]: KF: for a11y want to use @title versus @name -- @name programmatic concept
17:40:37 [oedipus]: KF: don't think is specific thing UAAG needs to tell HTML5 to change
17:41:09 [oedipus]: GJR: can file a bug stating that @title should be required on IFRAME and FRAMES
17:41:16 [oedipus]: JA: that would solve a whole host of issues
17:41:44 [oedipus]: GJR: what i will i will send a proposed bug report to ua list and then we can discuss before i log it in the HTML5 bug tracker
17:42:24 [oedipus]: ACTION: Gregory - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user)
17:42:24 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-447 - - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-09-16].
17:42:48 [oedipus]: GL: could use a DIV for everything an IFRAME couldn't one?
17:43:24 [oedipus]: GL: can set flow attribute to auto -- IFRAME has fixed size
17:43:37 [oedipus]: JS: DIV won't let you embed external document
17:44:52 [oedipus]: GJR: points out some issues with iframe resizing -- have to use sandbox attribute
17:44:53 [Greg]: From the user perspective there is no difference...
17:45:25 [oedipus]: JA: date picker -- a11y concerns expressed for date picker applies to almost everything
17:45:42 [oedipus]: KF: question to ask ourselves is do we give enough guidance in SC to make controls accessible?
17:45:56 [oedipus]: JA: have that in "everything should be keyboard accessible"
17:46:27 [oedipus]: proposed resolution: UAAG will not take up bug 8666 -- covered by UAAG already
17:46:33 [oedipus]: resolution: UAAG will not take up bug 8666 -- covered by UAAG already
17:46:52 [oedipus]: JA: bug 8682 - tab and reading order for context menus
17:47:16 [oedipus]: JA: should be defined in spec to clarify usage; editor says "don't understand is a platform specific issue"
17:47:38 [oedipus]: JA: addition of context menu into native context menu of particular item or provide one for the user when not provided
17:48:01 [oedipus]: JA: for UAAG, use arrow keys in windows to move through context menu after opening
17:48:19 [oedipus]: JA: do we need an indicator for when author provided context menu different from standard context menu
17:48:32 [oedipus]: JA: think this is a UAAG issue and not an HTML5 issue
17:48:37 [oedipus]: KF: agree
17:48:44 [oedipus]: KF: should discuss need for indicator
17:49:38 [oedipus]: JA: any disagreement that is UAAG issue and not HTML issue?
17:50:16 [oedipus]: resolution: bug 8682 is a UAAG issue, not an HTML5 issue; need to discuss need for indicator for when author provided context menu different from standard context menu
17:50:29 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
17:50:59 [AllanJ]: action: Jim to review notification of existence of author context menu see bug 8682
17:50:59 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-448 - Review notification of existence of author context menu see bug 8682 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-09-16].
17:51:24 [oedipus]: JA: bug 8743 --- auditory icons clashing with AT
17:51:44 [oedipus]: JA: icons in HEAD of document could be visual/aural/olfactory/etc.
17:51:56 [oedipus]: JA: are auditory icons meant to be played by UA when page loads
17:52:09 [oedipus]: JA: HTML editor said how icons displayed and act is a UA issue
17:52:34 [oedipus]: JA: agree with editor -- how UA should handle auditory icons should be handled by UA under user control
17:52:36 [oedipus]: KF: agree
17:53:16 [oedipus]: GL: 1 concern: don't disagree, but when HTML spec defines something but doesn't define how to be used, get diff implementations from different browser devs
17:53:44 [oedipus]: GL: similar to issue with @title -- how to expose?
17:54:11 [oedipus]: GL: personally think is bad not to provide some guidance as to how can be used
17:54:29 [oedipus]: GL: UAAG should outline user control over auditory events
17:54:36 [oedipus]: JA: sounds like another configuration thing
17:55:11 [oedipus]: GJR: user should be able to decide how things are done (per instance or as universal setting)
17:55:55 [oedipus]: resolution: bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such events
17:56:16 [oedipus]: issue: bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such events
17:56:16 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-73 - Bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such events ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/73/edit .
17:56:43 [oedipus]: JA: last bug 8751 - user should have ability to override automatic scrolling
17:57:10 [oedipus]: JA: can use HTML5 to scroll element into view -- when detected, supposed to put element into viewport
17:57:50 [oedipus]: JA: should be way for user to override automatic scrolling because auto-scroll may entail much more work on part of user
17:58:12 [oedipus]: JA: editor said scrolling req is a SHOULD not a MUST -- must bring to user's attention but agnostic on how should be done
17:58:28 [oedipus]: JA: this is a specific scripting thing being added to HTML5 affecting UA behavior
17:58:39 [oedipus]: JA: if in HTML5, may know what is being done and how to control
17:58:49 [AllanJ]: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/editing.html#scrolling-elements-into-view
17:58:57 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8751
18:00:09 [oedipus]: JA: if it is in HTML5, UA should know what is going on, so UA should have ability to control whether happens automatically or only on specific request
18:00:42 [oedipus]: JA: if just javascript, UA won't have a clue -- should ask author to assign ARIA politeness level to it so user can make decision to auto scroll or not
18:01:19 [oedipus]: JA: HTML5 has hundreds of these javascript "standardization"
18:02:16 [oedipus]: JA: should all of this stuff in HTML5 will inform what UAs will do with DOM manipulation or will it go into javascripted black hole
18:02:31 [oedipus]: JR: dont' mention focus -- strange
18:02:40 [oedipus]: GL: think that is intentional
18:03:00 [oedipus]: JA: scrolls whole object into view but doesn't put programmatic foucus on object
18:03:18 [oedipus]: JR: doing something that will cause user's attention to it, but haven't moved focus
18:03:56 [oedipus]: GL: use case: have 2 panes -- 1 where user is working, 1 where info about background tasks; want to scroll 1 pane into view without causing focus to move so user can return to pane 1
18:04:25 [oedipus]: JS: googledocs - when delete or paste, jumps to top of doc; WordPress - if delete comment from bottom, jumps to the top, so have to delete them one-by-one
18:04:35 [oedipus]: JR: this could be a fix for that?
18:04:56 [oedipus]: KP: if user could say "don't move my focus"
18:05:11 [oedipus]: s/JS: googledocs/KP: googledocs/
18:05:44 [oedipus]: GJR: KP are you saying "don't move focus, but you can move my viewport if you bring me back to original focus?
18:06:39 [oedipus]: GL: document will be taken by devs as instructing them to scroll in all cases -- title is "scroll into view" and states SHOULD scroll (although non-normative) -- key part is MUST focus but doesn't state how
18:07:03 [oedipus]: GL: acknowledge that user settings may change behavior -- most authors will never read UAAG so would be good to have in HTML5 directly
18:07:11 [oedipus]: KF: if we want something need to propose a change
18:07:34 [oedipus]: JS: most effective way to get done is propose a change
18:07:58 [oedipus]: GJR: 2 steps: 1 log bugs - 2. write change proposal for HTML WG
18:08:03 [Greg]: It would be NICE but not absolutely required for the HTML document to acknowledge that user preference settings can change how this is handled. We can and should put it in UAAG but many developers won't read it.
18:08:32 [oedipus]: JS: need to reopen bugs
18:09:17 [oedipus]: GJR: need to take bug 8751 and put them in a change proposal on HTML WG wiki
18:09:28 [oedipus]: KP: user settings can affect this
18:10:21 [oedipus]: GL: would prefer them to change wording slightly so that more context available before user starts scroll
18:10:59 [oedipus]: GL: if can find implementations should at least make recommendation; wording in a number of places could allow for that rather than seeming to prohibit it
18:11:23 [oedipus]: JA: could you write something up on this GL?
18:11:38 [oedipus]: JA: please work with GJR on this
18:12:30 [oedipus]: ACTION: Greg - work with GJR to write up wording to address bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for HTML WG
18:12:30 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-449 - - work with GJR to write up wording to address bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for HTML WG [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-09-16].
18:12:33 [Greg]: Also, it would be nice for the HTML5 document to acknowledge that user preference settings could let the user specify the size of a buffer around the edge of the viewport such that when scrolling to found etc. content that content would not appear at the very edge of the viewport, but instead inset somewhat so the user can see more context around it without having to scroll. UAAG20 could...
18:12:35 [Greg]: ...include a low-priority recommendation (e.g. Level AAA) that UA provide such a setting.
18:13:45 [oedipus]: JR: author wants info of use to user -- want attention to be on object x -- for mouse user bringing something into middle of viewport, makes easy to mouse links -- if focus left behind, then those links are no closer for non-mouse user
18:14:04 [oedipus]: JR: if telling people attention should be here, focus should be here too?
18:14:23 [oedipus]: GJR: will author use HTML5 details element or aria-dialog?
18:14:34 [Zakim]: -sharper
18:14:46 [oedipus]: JR: like 2 pane work use case -- if second pane isn't allowed to scroll, not getting full functionality
18:14:58 [oedipus]: KP: can you fix if author broke it
18:15:26 [oedipus]: JA: could be user setting -- if viewport moves, have focus move with it
18:15:42 [oedipus]: GL: what authors want to do is move focus, not scroll into view
18:16:16 [oedipus]: GL: when author explicitly does not want to move focus, would be useful to retain focus in one pane while providing viewport for second
18:16:56 [Greg]: The HTML5 document should probably give more guidance on when authors would use scrollIntoView vs. moving the focus (which also scrolls things into view in the default configuration). Authors should almost always move the focus rather than using scollIntoView, except in very specific circumstances where they REALLY want to bring something to the user's attention WITHOUT stealing the keyboard...
18:16:58 [Greg]: ...focus.
18:17:09 [oedipus]: KP: best case - user gets info - if overriden, notify getting something different;
18:18:08 [oedipus]: JR: "before you use scroll into view, make sure you do not want to move focus..."
18:18:28 [oedipus]: JR: "scroll element into view without moving focus to element"
18:18:54 [oedipus]: JA: are we covered?
18:19:13 [oedipus]: GJR: are we also saying "don't move focus, but you can move my viewport if you bring me back to original focus?
18:19:31 [oedipus]: JA: GL 3.10 "help user to use viewports and orient within them"
18:20:05 [oedipus]: JA: indicate viewport position -- all in GL 3.10
18:20:11 [oedipus]: JA: have a lot of that covered
18:23:21 [oedipus]: investigate scrollIntoView crossover with ARIA politeness levels and live regions
18:24:06 [oedipus]: JA: can scrollIntoView be first thing on page so user is placed in middle of document?
18:24:19 [oedipus]: JA: example: google search puts focus in edit box
18:24:56 [oedipus]: JA: propose Greg and Gregory get wording ready to submit to HTML5 -- find out what is response, then follow up if needed
18:25:27 [oedipus]: JA: need to remember to bump up GL 3.10 to make sure that cover this in implementation of viewports
18:25:57 [oedipus]: FIVE MINUTE WARNING
18:26:25 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Writer's Surveys
18:26:32 [oedipus]: JA: where to start?
18:26:45 [oedipus]: JA: don't know if have enough time to get to any of them
18:26:53 [oedipus]: KF: take up next week with survey 3
18:27:37 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Browser Implementations
18:28:22 [oedipus]: KF: would like WG review of all success criteria -- think we are close, but when reviewed ATAG, noticed that drafting very crisp -- where can UAAG 2.0 be tightened up especially in regards SC
18:29:01 [oedipus]: JR: ATAG got major feedback -- may have to cycle back to WD -- cautionary tale for UAAG 2.0
18:29:08 [oedipus]: KF: GL you have ATAG comments?
18:29:21 [oedipus]: GL: yes, need to divide between high priority and regular priority
18:29:37 [oedipus]: GL: submit as go or wait for comprehensive feedback
18:30:01 [oedipus]: JR: would like to get as much feedback as soon as possible -- AUWG having F2F next week to process LC issues
18:30:33 [oedipus]: JR: stabilization draft feedback is what we need
18:30:46 [oedipus]: JR: people have pavlovian response to the term "Last Call"
18:31:05 [oedipus]: JS: getting other WAI groups feedback before LC is key
18:31:20 [oedipus]: JR: UAAG feedback to AUWG good --
18:31:52 [oedipus]: JR: also received substantive issues from other sources, which is why may have to cycle back through another PWD and another LC
18:32:52 [oedipus]: [ADJOURN]
18:34:47 [Zakim]: -kford
18:34:49 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
18:34:51 [Zakim]: -KimPatch
18:34:53 [Zakim]: -AllanJ
18:34:54 [Zakim]: -Jan
18:35:03 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:35:09 [jeanne]: gregory, can we talk about Bugzilla?
18:35:19 [Zakim]: -Greg
18:35:51 [oedipus]: jeanne -- yes -- can we talk in about half an hour?
18:36:08 [jeanne]: sure. What phone number can I call you at ?
18:36:10 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:36:11 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:36:13 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, Jeanne, +1.425.883.aacc, Gregory_Rosmaita, kford, +1.617.325.aadd, KimPatch, sharper, Jan
18:36:20 [oedipus]: jeanne, the bug on bugzilla is: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
18:36:30 [oedipus]: zakim, please part
18:36:30 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:37:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:37:40 [oedipus]: s/jeanne -- yes -- can we talk in about half an hour?//
18:38:18 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:39:05 [oedipus]: present- +1.512.206.aaaa, +1.425.895.aabb, +1.425.883.aacc, +1.617.325.aadd
18:39:11 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:41:11 [oedipus]: i/Gregory: I need to work/TOPIC: Accesskey Replacement Requirements/
18:41:19 [oedipus]: i/Gregory: I need to work/scribenick: kford/
18:41:24 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:42:36 [oedipus]: i/JA: reply not made to list yet/scribenick: oedipus/
18:42:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:43:25 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:43:31 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-actions.rdf :
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kford to look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other also indicating they will look. [1]
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc#T17-21-24
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregory - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) [2]
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc#T17-42-24
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jim to review notification of existence of author context menu see bug 8682 [3]
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc#T17-50-59
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Greg - work with GJR to write up wording to address bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for HTML WG [4]
18:43:52 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc#T18-12-30