IRC log of svg on 2010-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:57:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
07:57:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc
07:57:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:57:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
07:57:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
07:57:15 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:57:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
07:57:16 [trackbot]
Date: 08 September 2010
07:57:22 [anthony]
Chair: Erik
07:57:26 [ChrisL]
Topic: last call comments on SVG1.1SE
07:57:33 [ChrisL]
Scribe: Chris
07:57:44 [ChrisL]
Scribenick: ChrisL
07:57:44 [anthony]
Present: CyrilC, ErikD, AnthonyG, JWatt, ChrisL, DougS
07:58:06 [ChrisL]
action-2812?
07:58:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-2812 -- Erik Dahlström to find the test case, commit it and make some proposed wording -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
07:58:06 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812
07:58:22 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/ua-tests/filter-feconvolvematrix-bias-ISSUE-2812.svg
07:58:22 [ChrisL]
ED: Found one test and an image
07:59:01 [ChrisL]
ED: extended the test with colour-interpolation-filters. Seems in inkscape 0.47 that al three are the same
07:59:34 [ChrisL]
CL: What is the correct result?
07:59:41 [ChrisL]
ED: That is what Jasper is asking
08:00:02 [ed]
ISSUE-2335?
08:00:02 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2335 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property -- raised
08:00:02 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2335
08:00:27 [ChrisL]
ED: What does firefox do with the bias?
08:00:44 [ChrisL]
... not much used so cost to change as a result of clarifications is low
08:02:21 [ChrisL]
(checking inkscape 0.48)
08:02:32 [ChrisL]
ED: Opera and Firefox same on bias
08:04:03 [ChrisL]
ED: In batik it drew nothing
08:06:04 [cyril]
cyril has joined #svg
08:07:30 [ChrisL]
ED: color-interpolation-filters should affect the result, so inkscape 0.48 is wrong
08:08:26 [ChrisL]
CL: Often filter implementations seem to not get the colour space right for calculations (at least, at first) until they see what a difference it makes
08:09:17 [jcdufourd]
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08:10:56 [ChrisL]
batik svn says 'rendering document failed' on that test
08:16:02 [ChrisL]
ED: ASV3 does same as Opera and Firefox
08:23:16 [shepazu_]
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08:24:17 [ChrisL]
CL: I extended the test to add an explicit bias="0.0"
08:24:23 [ChrisL]
... checking in now
08:26:36 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/ua-tests/filter-feconvolvematrix-bias-ISSUE-2812.svg
08:30:06 [ChrisL]
JW: What is the use case here
08:31:45 [ChrisL]
ED: For example comparing two images by subtraction, bias moves it from being centred on zero (and clipped) to centred on 0.5
08:32:04 [ChrisL]
DS: Maybe aske DDailey
08:32:16 [ChrisL]
CC: Ask Vincent Hardy
08:33:34 [ChrisL]
action: erik to ask Vincent Hardy and David Dailey about bias and ISSUE-2335
08:33:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2859 - Ask Vincent Hardy and David Dailey about bias and ISSUE-2335 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-09-15].
08:36:30 [ChrisL]
DS: Trying test in Safari and Chrome nightlies
08:39:02 [ChrisL]
Of the implementations that do color-interpolation-filters and do bias, they all get the same result and follow the spec.
08:39:14 [ChrisL]
s/Of/CL: Of/
08:43:15 [ChrisL]
DS: Chrome does not implement color-interpolation-filters but they do implement bias
08:47:38 [ChrisL]
Topic: SVG 2.0 and audio, video
08:50:42 [ChrisL]
CL: SVG 1.2T audio and video has good timing, which is an advantage for synchronisation compared to html5 audio and video, but our dom apis suck. A good first step would be the 1.2T markup, with timing and synchronisation, but with the HTML5 apis
08:51:14 [ChrisL]
ED: What about the src attribute and fallback?
08:51:44 [ChrisL]
... fallback formats in 1.2T not as good as the html5 ones, we should adopt them
08:52:01 [ChrisL]
s/src attribute/soure elements/
08:52:39 [ed]
s/soure elements/source elements/
08:52:43 [ChrisL]
CC: Microsoft asked me at SVG Open about the differences between html5 and svg video
08:52:55 [ChrisL]
s/soure/source/
08:53:23 [ChrisL]
CC: I had five points of key differece (looks for notes)
08:54:25 [cyril]
CC: separation of document timeline from media timeline
08:54:41 [cyril]
CC: ability to start/stop the media timeline at specific time in the document timeline
08:55:06 [cyril]
CC: ability to start/stop the media timeline at a specific time in the media timeline (SMIL clipBegin/clipEnd)
08:55:32 [cyril]
CC: explicit syncing of media timelines
08:56:40 [ChrisL]
CL: For example syncing a video stream to an audio stream
08:57:24 [cyril]
CC: ability to receive events from the media (Media Access Events)
08:57:34 [ChrisL]
DS: Would like to see a more detailed comparison of markup and APIs
08:58:13 [ChrisL]
CC: People are scared of smil, the timing model is not complex and is already in falsh, mpeg4 etc is is needed functionality
08:58:25 [cyril]
s/falsh/flash/
08:59:08 [ChrisL]
DS: Simon Fraser said it was tricky to sync multimedia due to platform concerns. Animation is very different from audio and video sync
08:59:40 [ChrisL]
CC: yes, timing and animation are quite different. Also audio and video typically handled by a decoder or an external system library
08:59:51 [ChrisL]
DS: Conzstraints are on the multimedia engine
09:00:28 [ChrisL]
s/nz/n/
09:01:35 [cyril]
s/the timing model/the timing model when you restrict it to these 5 points/
09:01:35 [ChrisL]
DS: Would prefer to discuss this i the FX task force because Simon is there
09:01:58 [ChrisL]
s/i /in /
09:02:02 [cyril]
CC: the use of time containers (nested ...) is complex
09:03:14 [ChrisL]
DS: Not totally convinced SVG should have audio and video
09:03:29 [ChrisL]
CC: HTML5 has audio, video and track
09:03:41 [ChrisL]
... SVG has audio video and animation
09:04:16 [ChrisL]
CL; Want to see explicit support for subtitling in SVG video so its clear how to add it
09:04:28 [ChrisL]
s/CL;/CL:/
09:04:28 [cyril]
s/CL;/CL:§
09:05:00 [ChrisL]
DS: Want to see that in the platform
09:05:09 [shepazu_]
DS: I want to see subtitling on the web platform, but I want it to be the same as is used in HTML
09:06:28 [ChrisL]
DS; Its important to have audio and video content in SVG but using the HTML5 audio and video its not much of an authoring burden and the api is nice
09:06:44 [ChrisL]
s/DS;/DS:/
09:09:14 [ChrisL]
CC: f the video is only in html, is it flexible enough? Can you make a video paint server for example?
09:09:52 [ChrisL]
ED:Yes you could, depends on how its implemented, need to wrap in foreign object, better to have a video element as it removes two steps of indirection
09:10:13 [cyril]
s/CC:f the/CC:if the/
09:10:31 [ChrisL]
CL: Yes there is no need to invoke an unused box model for a video elemetn (or indeed audio)
09:10:41 [ChrisL]
DS: Ned to look more at foreignObject
09:10:49 [cyril]
s/Ned/Need/
09:10:51 [ChrisL]
s/Ned/Need/
09:17:24 [ChrisL]
DS: We need to get more input from the browser implementors on this
09:18:10 [ChrisL]
ED: Opera experience is that SVGT1.2video is much more efficient than HTML5 video wrapped in foreign object, for svg-with-video
09:18:28 [ChrisL]
Topic: Markers
09:19:09 [shepazu_]
I don't want SVG to add video and audio unless it is done in a compatible way to HTML5 (which is what we've been talking about) and unless we have buy-in from all the major browser vendors
09:21:39 [shepazu]
s/because Simon is there//because Simon, DSinger, Jack Jansen, and other implementers with specific multimedia expertise are there/
09:33:46 [shepazu]
scribenick: shepazu
09:49:24 [shepazu]
ChrisL: [gives background]
09:49:48 [shepazu]
... GKS had the concept of fill, stroke, and marker...
09:50:09 [shepazu]
... it was pivotal in the 1970s in framing the language of 2d graphics
09:50:24 [shepazu]
... when SVG added it, it seemed obvious to talk about it in those terms
09:50:46 [shepazu]
... but if you look at the use of markers, people use markers, or they use paths with fill and stroke...
09:51:27 [shepazu]
.... markers are on points of particular interest, rather than on the geometry of the path beziers
09:51:56 [shepazu]
ChrisL: so, I feel it was a mistake to add markers in this way...
09:52:11 [shepazu]
... you can have markers on markers, etc. which isn't useful
09:52:39 [shepazu]
... I think it might be a good idea to deprecate markers and add a new, more useful equivalent
09:53:46 [shepazu]
... for example, allowing them to dispatch events rather than just being part of the rendering model
09:53:50 [shepazu]
ChrisL: I started to make a proposal for "polymarkers"...
09:54:06 [shepazu]
... which would be like polyline, takes a list of points
09:54:44 [shepazu]
... but that's not good enough, because you can't put events on individual makers
09:55:45 [shepazu]
ChrisL: so instead, I think it would be better to have a marker container, where each marker is an element, which can have an id, can be animated and interactive
09:55:56 [shepazu]
jwatt: so you couldn't reuse a marker?
09:56:13 [shepazu]
ChrisL: you could use a "use"...
09:56:23 [shepazu]
... haven't thought through the exact mechanism
09:56:38 [shepazu]
... could have 'd' attribute, but that's not good enough
09:56:51 [shepazu]
... the other option is having it more like a <use>
09:57:09 [shepazu]
... so you can have multiple colors, and multiple instantiations
09:57:37 [shepazu]
ChrisL: if you wanted them to be identical, the container could have the href that points to the marker
09:58:04 [shepazu]
jwatt: 2 questions
09:58:25 [shepazu]
... when the path that you're marking....
09:58:56 [shepazu]
ChrisL: no, you're not putting them on a path, they are separate
09:59:28 [shepazu]
jwatt: ok, as an author, I may draw a path that I want to have markers in sync
10:00:59 [shepazu]
ChrisL: right, but if you want to have straight lines, that's easy... but if have a smooth curve, you always have to sync manually
10:01:27 [shepazu]
jwatt: I've been thinking about this, too....
10:02:23 [shepazu]
... rather than have markers at the vertices between the segments, have a property that says, "every x unit along the path"
10:03:03 [shepazu]
ChrisL: or "I want x number of markers evenly placed"
10:03:52 [shepazu]
shepazu: or points at a certain length along a path
10:04:53 [shepazu]
ChrisL: the disadvantage to that is that it only extends our current model, with lack of addressability
10:05:06 [shepazu]
break for lunch
10:16:18 [Zakim]
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11:32:57 [ed]
[back from lunch]
11:35:22 [ChrisL]
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11:36:05 [shepazu]
action: ChrisL to write up different proposals for markers
11:36:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2860 - Write up different proposals for markers [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-15].
11:36:08 [ChrisL]
zakim, remind me in 5 hours to go home
11:36:08 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL
11:36:26 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
11:38:57 [shepazu]
Topic: F2F schedule
11:39:25 [shepazu]
ed: we're meeting at TPAC; if you haven't registered, you should do so soon
11:40:24 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2010JulSep/0040.html
11:40:37 [shepazu]
ed: what about the next F2F?
11:41:17 [shepazu]
... TPAC is in November
11:41:37 [shepazu]
anthony: we could do Sydney in February
11:41:56 [shepazu]
ed: or New Zealand, where heycam will be
11:45:23 [shepazu]
[discussion about NZ]
11:48:24 [shepazu]
it would get us folks from Australia, like heycam, Brian Birtles, Alex Danilo... and hopefully ROC could join for a day or 2
11:49:43 [shepazu]
ChrisL: where would it be? would mozilla host?
11:50:35 [shepazu]
jwatt: there is a small office in Auckland, not big enough to host, but we could talk about getting facilities for a meeting.... I'll have to ask
11:51:41 [shepazu]
action: jwatt to investigate Mozilla hosting an SVG WG F2F in Auckland, NZ in February/March
11:51:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2861 - Investigate Mozilla hosting an SVG WG F2F in Auckland, NZ in February/March [on Jonathan Watt - due 2010-09-15].
11:52:52 [shepazu]
shepazu: obviously there is also SVG Open and TPAC20111
11:53:46 [shepazu]
... seems like SVG Open may be in Seattle
11:53:48 [shepazu]
ed: what about LGM
11:54:10 [shepazu]
ChrisL: it's in Montreal 10-13 May
11:54:51 [shepazu]
.... AC meeting and possible Interaction Domain meeting 14-17 in Bilbao, Spain
11:57:56 [shepazu]
ed: so, if we meet at LGM, it would have to be the first week of May
11:58:11 [shepazu]
shepazu: it could just be a short F2F
12:01:24 [shepazu]
Topic: telcon times
12:01:50 [shepazu]
anthony: I'm happy to do 6am australian time
12:02:38 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Times
12:04:11 [shepazu]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2010&month=4&day=15&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=240&p2=195&p3=43&p4=224&iv=1800
12:05:18 [shepazu]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2010&month=9&day=16&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=240&p2=195&p3=43&p4=224
12:07:13 [shepazu]
http://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst2010.html
12:09:50 [shepazu]
ed: so, we keep the existing times until October 31
12:09:58 [shepazu]
... when DST ends
12:11:19 [shepazu]
ed: FXTF meetings will be on Monday 20:00 UTC for 1 hour
12:11:49 [shepazu]
action: doug to update FX wiki with telcon times
12:11:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2862 - Update FX wiki with telcon times [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-15].
12:19:08 [shepazu]
Topic: Non-retain property
12:19:50 [shepazu]
ed: this came up at SVG Open
12:20:58 [shepazu]
cyril: Andreas Bovens from Opera mentioned the buffered-rendering property, which enables faster rendering after optimization
12:21:41 [cyril]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/painting.html#BufferedRenderingProperty
12:21:52 [shepazu]
... for a subtree that's not expected to be dynamic
12:22:13 [cyril]
CC: static = "Indicates that the element is not expected to be modified often. "
12:23:46 [shepazu]
cyril: I would like to go a step further with a new value that allows you to trash the DOM
12:24:19 [shepazu]
anthony: wouldn't that discard the vectors?
12:24:42 [shepazu]
cyril: no, you'd keep the internal vector representation, but it would still save memory
12:25:20 [shepazu]
anthony: this would be good for the proposed extended path syntax
12:26:03 [shepazu]
cyril: we'd have to discuss whether animations or script would still apply
12:27:54 [shepazu]
ed: I would like a way to allow a subtree of an SVG that acts as a separate layer, composited on top, which doesn't depend on other parts of the document
12:29:34 [shepazu]
shepazu: what about simply allowing SVG in the <image>?
12:30:04 [shepazu]
ed: I don't think that gets us the same thing, because there's no interaction
12:35:06 [ed]
... SVGT12 <animation> + buffered-rendering might be a way to go though
12:39:37 [ed]
ACTION: cyril to investigate how the buffered-rendering property can be improved for SVG2
12:39:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2863 - Investigate how the buffered-rendering property can be improved for SVG2 [on Cyril Concolato - due 2010-09-15].
12:45:09 [shepazu]
topic: charter
12:45:33 [shepazu]
here's a rough list of stuff in the draft (no order, some duplicates):
12:45:35 [shepazu]
* Animation and Media
12:45:36 [shepazu]
* Color Management
12:45:36 [shepazu]
* Compositing
12:45:36 [shepazu]
* Connectors
12:45:36 [shepazu]
* Filters
12:45:38 [shepazu]
* Integration
12:45:38 [shepazu]
* Layout Requirements and Use Cases
12:45:40 [shepazu]
* Layout
12:45:42 [shepazu]
* Masking and Clipping
12:45:44 [shepazu]
* Media Access Events
12:45:46 [shepazu]
* Pagination
12:45:48 [shepazu]
* Paint Servers
12:45:50 [shepazu]
* Parameters
12:45:52 [shepazu]
* Transformations
12:45:54 [shepazu]
* Vector Effects
12:45:57 [shepazu]
* SVG 2
12:45:58 [shepazu]
* SVG DOM API
12:46:00 [shepazu]
* SVG Fonts
12:46:02 [shepazu]
* SVG 2 Requirements
12:46:04 [shepazu]
* Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) Tiny 1.2: Requirements; Specification
12:46:06 [shepazu]
* SVG 2 Modular Specification
12:46:08 [shepazu]
* SVG Print: Requirements; Part 1: Primer; Part 2: Language
12:46:10 [shepazu]
* SVG Filters: Requirements; Part 1: Primer; Part 2: Language
12:46:12 [shepazu]
* Paint Servers
12:46:14 [shepazu]
* SVG Masking and Clipping
12:46:16 [shepazu]
* SVG Vector Effects
12:46:18 [shepazu]
* SVG Compositing
12:46:20 [shepazu]
* SVG Layout: Requirements; Part 1: Primer; Part 2: Language
12:46:22 [shepazu]
* SVG WebFonts
12:46:24 [shepazu]
* Media Access Events
12:48:54 [ChrisL]
http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/49ColorProfiles/
12:52:22 [shepazu]
ChrisL: we're currently on a charter extension
12:55:04 [shepazu]
ed: and will we ask for another one until SVG 1.1 SE is done?
13:07:24 [shepazu]
[end break]
13:08:42 [shepazu]
ed: I want to see a much better treatment of 'foreignObject', with HTML in particular, including requirements, tight wording, and tests for interoperability
13:10:41 [shepazu]
ChrisL: it should say that when the CSS box model is used to render the contents of 'foreignObject', the size of the 'foreignObject' element is taken as the size of the outermost containing block, and starts a new CSS canvas
13:12:20 [shepazu]
Resolution: we should prioritize defining 'foreignObject' behavior in SVG Integration
13:12:44 [shepazu]
action: shepazu to define 'foreignObject' behavior in SVG Integration
13:12:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2864 - Define 'foreignObject' behavior in SVG Integration [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-15].
13:13:46 [shepazu]
ed: does this handle zooming and transforms?
13:14:03 [shepazu]
CL: I don't think zoom is adequately defined....
13:14:18 [shepazu]
... we once had zoom vs. magnify, but we got rid of that
13:17:03 [shepazu]
ed: we should say that if you're an HTML+SVG UA, you must support SVG in the 'foreignObject' element
13:17:18 [shepazu]
shepazu: and MathML too
13:17:56 [ed]
s/support SVG/support HTML and SVG/
13:18:44 [shepazu]
CL: if you support the CSS box model & SVG, then you must support the use of the box model in the SVG 'foreignObject' element
13:35:53 [shepazu]
shepazu: I'll add that Transformations may include 2D and 2.5D transforms
13:48:45 [shepazu]
Topic: Params
13:49:25 [shepazu]
shepazu: need to decide on a better syntax that works for CSS as well
13:50:21 [shepazu]
... and for a URL syntax that doesn't trigger multiple server requests, and isn't cached, like the "?" delimiter does
13:51:03 [shepazu]
CL: what about #params(foo=1,bar=red) ?
13:51:09 [shepazu]
shepazu: ok
13:56:24 [shepazu]
action: shepazu to update Params spec to change URL syntax
13:56:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2865 - Update Params spec to change URL syntax [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-15].
13:57:35 [shepazu]
shepazu: that syntax should also work for external CSS stylesheet, if CSS decides to add this too
13:58:09 [shepazu]
... I'd like to discuss this with them during the FXTF call
14:00:08 [anthony]
Topic: SVG 2
14:00:15 [anthony]
CL: What are the hot new features for it?
14:00:27 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
14:00:30 [anthony]
ScribeNick: anthony
14:00:32 [anthony]
DS: Tighter with HTML 5
14:00:51 [anthony]
s/Tigher/Tigher integration/
14:01:48 [shepazu]
Tighter integration with HTML5 and CSS, including using SVG features like filters and gradients with HTML content
14:02:17 [anthony]
ED: Advanced gradients, transforms, filters
14:02:26 [anthony]
... and compositing
14:02:47 [anthony]
CL: Vector Effects is a fairly visible feature
14:02:52 [anthony]
DS: Params
14:02:56 [anthony]
ED: Params is very useful
14:03:01 [anthony]
... is the feedback I've been getting
14:03:06 [anthony]
... makes things reusable
14:03:27 [anthony]
DS: New gradients (mesh, diffusion curves?)
14:03:32 [anthony]
CL: Was asking at a high level
14:03:51 [anthony]
... looking at blocking out an area as to why you'd use SVG 2 instead of old versions
14:04:05 [anthony]
DS: Component based reuse of SVG is Params
14:04:33 [anthony]
... possibly connectors?
14:04:42 [anthony]
ED: New CSS properties that might apply to SVG
14:04:51 [anthony]
... gives better integration with HTML
14:05:31 [anthony]
DS: Maybe the fact that we are cleaning up some of the cruft and making it more consistent
14:05:48 [anthony]
... and interoperable
14:05:59 [anthony]
... what about canned effects?
14:06:11 [anthony]
... author friendly short hands for common effects
14:06:19 [anthony]
CL: Ease of authoring
14:07:10 [anthony]
DS: Richer SVG and CSS animation
14:07:21 [anthony]
... or maybe cleaner
14:08:56 [anthony]
ED: What features would you be looking for if you were a stand alone UA?
14:08:59 [anthony]
... the shape path thing
14:09:15 [anthony]
DS: Skeleton paths
14:09:46 [anthony]
CC: Wire frames
14:10:11 [anthony]
CL: Vector Effects can draw like a filter and as a stand alone object
14:10:30 [anthony]
... and Super path
14:10:45 [anthony]
... I'd group that with the smooth curves
14:10:51 [anthony]
ED: And the variable stroke width
14:10:59 [anthony]
... all very useful functionality
14:11:51 [anthony]
CL: I'm after a high level summary
14:11:59 [anthony]
... with groupings of these features
14:12:04 [anthony]
AG: Should we make something like that?
14:12:06 [anthony]
CL: Yes
14:13:24 [anthony]
... pulling that stuff together with broad headings would make a nice document
14:14:37 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Put together a high level overview stating the most important new features in SVG 2
14:14:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2866 - Put together a high level overview stating the most important new features in SVG 2 [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-15].
14:15:03 [anthony]
CL: This is something I'd expect someone to be able to read in a few minutes
14:15:11 [anthony]
... and have an idea of what we're doing
14:16:43 [anthony]
CL: Are there any big areas of functionality we've been asked for
14:17:03 [anthony]
... but don't have any work in the area?
14:17:11 [anthony]
DS: Layout and constrains
14:18:41 [anthony]
AG: Have we thought about when we are going to start SVG 2?
14:18:55 [anthony]
DS: I think it is unrealistic for us to simply do it from scratch
14:19:11 [anthony]
... it is not good for us to simply pull things in
14:19:29 [anthony]
... we can bring in sections that we need as place holders
14:19:31 [anthony]
... from 1.1
14:19:39 [anthony]
... and give them a class that gives them a maturity
14:19:57 [anthony]
... that maturity would indicate if it's been reviewed
14:20:02 [anthony]
... there are testable assertions
14:20:11 [anthony]
... that it is consistent with other parts of the spec
14:20:15 [anthony]
... and it has test
14:20:38 [anthony]
... There would be some stylistic thing
14:20:43 [anthony]
... which denotes it's new
14:21:34 [anthony]
CL: I agree we should pull that text in as a place holder
14:21:54 [anthony]
DS: I think if we go for this more rigorous process of review
14:22:13 [f1lt3r]
f1lt3r has joined #svg
14:22:16 [anthony]
... we will find inconsistencies that hadn't been found
14:22:27 [anthony]
... or address things that hadn't been addressed
14:22:41 [anthony]
DS: We talked about having an annotated version of the spec
14:23:05 [anthony]
... and in that version we could have reasons for certain technical decisions
14:23:12 [anthony]
CL: If you do it the other way around
14:23:28 [anthony]
... where you author with the annotations
14:23:37 [anthony]
... and have an XSLT to give you the raw document
14:24:10 [anthony]
DS: My idea was we have a document on the side, in addition to use case and requirements
14:24:35 [anthony]
... which is like a developers guide
14:24:37 [anthony]
... and the annotated version of the spec we'd have links into the developers guide
14:24:55 [anthony]
JW: Some sort of design rational doc sounds reasonable to me
14:24:57 [anthony]
... even for us
14:25:21 [anthony]
DS: Sometimes you're not around CL and it would be good to have that information around
14:25:32 [anthony]
... for discussions
14:25:51 [anthony]
... I'm proposing we have a system
14:26:06 [anthony]
JW: Everyone understands how to add stuff
14:26:25 [anthony]
DS: Right, so people can see why we've made the decision
14:26:35 [anthony]
JW: I think it will save us work explaining why we did something
14:26:46 [anthony]
... rather than trying to recall it
14:27:08 [anthony]
AG: We could link it straight to trackbot
14:27:22 [anthony]
DS: We could put ISSUE numbers in
14:27:35 [anthony]
CL: So when we commit trackbot picks up on it
14:27:44 [shepazu]
we could use this: http://www.w3.org/People/Schepers/spec-conventions.html
14:28:15 [anthony]
DS: My proposed stylistic and syntactic convention
14:28:26 [anthony]
... things would be marked up certain way
14:28:33 [anthony]
... and it makes it easy to pull out
14:29:23 [anthony]
ED: I liked the thing that Cameron did
14:29:31 [anthony]
... with the script
14:29:39 [anthony]
... that would link to definitions
14:29:46 [anthony]
... and put them in the spec
14:29:48 [anthony]
... when it was generated
14:30:10 [anthony]
AG: Do we have mark up for assertions?
14:30:17 [anthony]
DS: No, need to add that
14:31:14 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Add to the common convention document mark up for testable assertions
14:31:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2867 - Add to the common convention document mark up for testable assertions [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-15].
14:31:28 [anthony]
CL: We should have an ID for the assertions
14:31:46 [anthony]
DS: We want to have a link to go to the tests and back
14:32:20 [anthony]
CC: The widget spec being edited while the tests were being edited
14:32:29 [anthony]
... and so what they did was have a hash
14:32:40 [anthony]
... that was generated for each test
14:33:00 [anthony]
DS: To a large degree we can solve that by settling on name conventions
14:33:09 [anthony]
... since we are going to edit the spec by hand
14:33:43 [anthony]
... we can come up meaningful names
14:34:01 [anthony]
CC: I the test suite at the moment we already have names
14:34:35 [anthony]
CL: Sequential number of sections is a bad idea. But sequential number for tests in a section name is ok
14:35:18 [anthony]
DS: How much of Cameron's build system can be used?
14:35:24 [anthony]
ED: I think it's a good idea to use
14:35:34 [anthony]
... it's Java based and uses some XSLT
14:35:39 [anthony]
... and some Perl scripts
14:35:57 [anthony]
CL: If we can modify it to meet our needs
14:36:07 [anthony]
... then that's better than building something from scratch
14:36:15 [anthony]
ED: Already working well with the modules
14:36:31 [anthony]
DS: We can start with that
14:36:38 [anthony]
... and the build system can always be changed
14:37:44 [anthony]
Topic: Using href in addition to xlink:href
14:38:45 [anthony]
DS: So the href property would be a getter and setter for the href attribute
14:38:58 [anthony]
CL: And if someone puts in xlink:href what happens?
14:39:17 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Href
14:39:47 [anthony]
DS: [Reads out page]
14:42:11 [anthony]
CC: So I have to remember what the value was?
14:42:17 [anthony]
... why being so strict?
14:42:22 [anthony]
ED: That's DOM requirement
14:42:26 [anthony]
... in DOM core
14:42:59 [anthony]
CC: So it's adding a flag probably
14:43:04 [anthony]
DS: That's if only they're using it
14:43:17 [anthony]
CC: maybe that's not an issue because XML events are not being used
14:43:33 [anthony]
... what about the "ev" prefix?
14:43:43 [anthony]
ED: We just use "event" we don't use the namespace
14:43:49 [anthony]
... you have to define the prefix
14:44:11 [anthony]
DS: Maybe something we need to think about at some point
14:44:50 [anthony]
... we are trying to align with HTML here
14:45:12 [ed]
s/ED: We just use "event" we don't use the namespace/ED: We just use XML events (in SVGT12), and yes you do have to declare the ev prefix to be from XML Events/
14:48:33 [anthony]
Resolution: We accept the proposal on the wiki and we will add this to the integration specification
14:51:46 [anthony]
ED: I think we should probably put this in SVG 2
14:51:56 [anthony]
... it doesn't belong in Integration
14:52:14 [anthony]
DS: Need a new resolution then
14:52:33 [anthony]
Resolution: We accept the proposal for href on the wiki and will add this to the SVG 2 specification
14:52:48 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Add wiki href proposal to the SVG 2 specification
14:52:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2868 - Add wiki href proposal to the SVG 2 specification [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-15].
14:58:12 [anthony]
Topic: Color
14:58:21 [anthony]
CL: There was some good feedback about CieLAB
14:58:33 [anthony]
... it didn't say what the white point was
14:58:40 [anthony]
... to make LAB you find out what the white point
14:58:49 [anthony]
... and you draw a line through the 3D space
14:59:05 [anthony]
... and that becomes the black white line
14:59:40 [anthony]
... we need to specify it so we have a default
15:00:04 [anthony]
... having initially thought that D65 would be the best default
15:00:09 [anthony]
... because that's what SRG be uses
15:00:24 [anthony]
... I'm now convinced that D50 is the one to use
15:00:27 [anthony]
AG: Why?
15:00:40 [anthony]
CL: Because that's what is used when doing the colour conversions
15:01:23 [anthony]
... that's a change I plan to add
15:01:30 [anthony]
... and add some wording to the primer
15:02:33 [anthony]
... It is interesting that IE9 has added colour management
15:03:51 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGColor12/
15:04:36 [anthony]
CL: Firefox gets the ICC 4 profiles wrong
15:05:12 [anthony]
... when people buy a printer they use ICC 4 profiles
15:05:33 [anthony]
... and ICC 4 profiles are used for profiling screens
15:06:13 [anthony]
... Apples color sync uses ICC 4 profiles
15:06:20 [anthony]
JW: It badly regressed?
15:06:35 [anthony]
... between 3.0 and 3.11
15:06:38 [anthony]
CL: Yes
15:07:00 [anthony]
... Mozilla said they wanted to have their own library because it was smaller and faster
15:07:15 [anthony]
... but it gives the wrong results
15:07:37 [anthony]
... LCMS 2 does full ICC 2 and 4 support
15:07:44 [anthony]
... and it's faster than LCMS 1
15:08:08 [anthony]
... LCMS 2 was released after Firefox changed away from LCMS 1
15:08:40 [anthony]
... At LGM there was someone from the Ghost script project
15:09:10 [anthony]
... that has added all the colour management stuff that's needed for PDF and Post Script
15:09:28 [anthony]
... He said there was a little module that reads in SVG and converts to PDF
15:09:58 [anthony]
... so if that code was hacked to understand our syntax for LAB and it would go through that library and have PDF
15:10:09 [anthony]
... which has all the colour management syntax
15:10:26 [anthony]
... I believe Inkscape has colour management in the latest version
15:11:16 [anthony]
AG: What about black point?
15:11:37 [anthony]
CL: We could add something about black point compensation
15:11:45 [anthony]
... which says how to join the black up
15:11:51 [anthony]
... means you don't lose shadow detail
15:11:57 [anthony]
AG: Could add it in a later version
15:12:14 [anthony]
CL: That's the update for the module
15:12:20 [anthony]
... I'd like to see it in SVG 2
15:13:08 [anthony]
... One of the conformance class is obeying the profiles in images
15:13:23 [anthony]
ED: Does Firefox do images only?
15:13:27 [anthony]
JW: Yes
15:14:04 [ed]
s/images/color management for raster images/
15:16:25 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Change the CieLAB with a D50 default white point
15:16:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2869 - Change the CieLAB with a D50 default white point [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-15].
15:18:45 [anthony]
AG: I have an action which relates to this
15:18:48 [anthony]
ACTION-2606?
15:18:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-2606 -- Anthony Grasso to propose wording for "preserve black" attribute for color profiles -- due 2009-06-16 -- OPEN
15:18:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2606
15:23:05 [anthony]
Meeting ended
15:23:13 [anthony]
trackbot, end telcon
15:23:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:23:13 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:23:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:23:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-minutes.html trackbot
15:23:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-actions.rdf :
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: erik to ask Vincent Hardy and David Dailey about bias and ISSUE-2335 [1]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T08-33-34
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisL to write up different proposals for markers [2]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T11-36-05
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jwatt to investigate Mozilla hosting an SVG WG F2F in Auckland, NZ in February/March [3]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T11-51-41
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: doug to update FX wiki with telcon times [4]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T12-11-49
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cyril to investigate how the buffered-rendering property can be improved for SVG2 [5]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T12-39-37
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to define 'foreignObject' behavior in SVG Integration [6]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T13-12-44
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to update Params spec to change URL syntax [7]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T13-56-24
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to Put together a high level overview stating the most important new features in SVG 2 [8]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T14-14-37
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to Add to the common convention document mark up for testable assertions [9]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T14-31-14
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to Add wiki href proposal to the SVG 2 specification [10]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T14-52-48
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to Change the CieLAB with a D50 default white point [11]
15:23:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-svg-irc#T15-16-25