15:53:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-irc
15:53:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:53:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:52 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:53:52 <trackbot> Date: 07 September 2010
15:54:10 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Sep/0000.html
15:54:15 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:54:21 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
15:54:21 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I don't know what conference this is
15:59:05 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
15:59:16 <boris> boris has joined #RDB2RDF
16:01:33 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
16:01:35 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:00 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:04 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:20 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:27 <MacTed> Zakim, what's the code?
16:02:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 7322733 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
16:02:32 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:02:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Ashok, cygri, Seema, boris, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot
16:02:38 <MacTed> hrm.
16:02:45 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
16:02:45 <Zakim> MacTed, this was already SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:02:46 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:02:51 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:02:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Ashok, cygri, Seema, boris, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot
16:02:55 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:02:55 <cygri> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas
16:02:57 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I do not recognize a party named 'mhausenblas'
16:02:59 <MacTed> broken bot.
16:03:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
16:03:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
16:03:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, I'm mhausenblas 
16:03:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm mhausenblas', mhausenblas
16:03:30 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
16:03:30 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:03:33 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:03:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, Souri, Ashok, cygri, Seema, boris, juansequeda, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot
16:03:35 <MacTed> bah
16:03:39 <cygri> hm, we can try this:
16:03:43 <cygri> nunolopes, who's here?
16:03:48 <cygri> nunolopes, i'm with mhausenblas
16:04:02 <Ashok> s/om/on/
16:04:04 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:04:08 <mhausenblas> seems we're having issues with Zakim
16:04:14 <nunolopes> cygri: this bot is even more broken then the other
16:05:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, this is SW_RDB2RDF
16:05:05 <Zakim> mhausenblas, this was already SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:05:06 <Zakim> ok, mhausenblas; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:05:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, help
16:05:13 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
16:05:15 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
16:05:17 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:19 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:05:22 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:25 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:28 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:05:31 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:05:33 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
16:05:36 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
16:05:39 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:05:42 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:05:44 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdb2rdf
16:05:45 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:05:48 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:05:48 <ericP> aha!
16:05:48 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's a bad bot?
16:05:49 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:05:51 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
16:05:53 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2010/03/15 18:49:04 $
16:05:55 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:05:56 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:05:56 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:05:56 <mhausenblas> ericP is very welcome
16:06:29 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
16:06:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:06:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see ericP, Zakim, nunolopes, Souri, Ashok, cygri, Seema, boris, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot
16:07:11 <mhausenblas> present+ Eric
16:07:17 <mhausenblas> present+ Nuno
16:07:23 <mhausenblas> present+ Richard
16:07:46 <mhausenblas> present+ Souri
16:08:04 <mhausenblas> present+ Ted
16:08:12 <mhausenblas> present+ Michael
16:08:33 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:08:36 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:08:41 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:10:08 <mhausenblas> present+ Juan
16:10:11 <mhausenblas> present+ Dan
16:10:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
16:10:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:10:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:10:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-irc
16:10:45 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:10:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:10:47 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
16:10:54 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:11:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
16:11:31 <Zakim> I don't see anyone present, mhausenblas
16:11:35 <ericP> q+ to say that "q+" won't work
16:11:40 <ericP> q-
16:12:11 <mhausenblas> scribenick: juansequeda 
16:12:25 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
16:12:33 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see
16:12:33 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2010/08/31-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:12:49 <cygri> the ambulance is for zakim
16:12:58 <mhausenblas> present+ Seema
16:13:01 <juansequeda> +1 for minutes
16:13:17 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: WG has accepted the minutes of past meeting
16:13:32 <juansequeda> TOPIC: Default Mapping
16:13:43 <boris_> boris_ has joined #RDB2RDF
16:13:57 <juansequeda> mhasenblas: there has been discussion on this in the last few hours
16:14:09 <juansequeda> ... will send the agenda earlier because this triggers discussion 
16:14:22 <mhausenblas> s/mhasenblas/mhausenblas
16:14:45 <juansequeda> juan: suggest to move on to topic 3 (syntax) and then go back to default mapping later
16:14:55 <juansequeda> TOPIC: Syntax
16:15:04 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43889/RDB2RDF-syntax/results
16:15:51 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: comments on the syntax?
16:16:20 <juansequeda> ... questions?
16:17:10 <juansequeda> cygri: so far, the answers are from the people who are deeply involved in the discussion
16:17:25 <juansequeda> ... it would be interesting to get popular vote from the people who haven't thought about these issues
16:17:30 <juansequeda> ... how to do this?
16:17:37 <juansequeda> ... would it make sense to make this a public poll?
16:17:47 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: I was expecting feedback from the group on this
16:17:58 <juansequeda> ... probably people involved in RDB2RDF are better informed to make this decision
16:18:06 <juansequeda> ... but opening to the public is an option
16:18:20 <juansequeda> ericP: I think that is a good idea. interested to see what consumers would like to type
16:18:40 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: should we have a separate poll? or open this one to the public
16:18:47 <juansequeda> ericP: need to get permission
16:19:00 <juansequeda> .. from everybody who has already submitted
16:19:10 <ericP> +1
16:19:10 <Ashok> By "public" do you mean W3C members or man-in-the-street?
16:19:57 <juansequeda> cygri: I will volunteer to make the custom syntax example can be the same as the others 
16:20:28 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: wrt Ashok's question... it is open to either
16:20:28 <Souri> Seema and I have added a new (revision 2) page for XML-schema based example: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Example_of_SQL-based_RDB2RDF_Mapping:_Revision_2
16:21:26 <juansequeda> Souri: in the DB community, I don't know how much is connected to this group. The feedback that we will get from the community is mostly going to be from the RDF side
16:21:53 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: this is the opportunity to do PR. We can approach people from Semtech
16:22:23 <juansequeda> Souri: the DB people may not care about RDF
16:23:17 <juansequeda> ... the db people are not enthusiastic in RDF, but will be players. 
16:23:30 <juansequeda> ... the feedback will come from RDF people
16:24:03 <juansequeda> cygri: the people who want to do this are the RDF people and we hope that the DB people will come later 
16:24:25 <juansequeda> ... if we believe something is better for DB people, then it is just speculation
16:24:39 <juansequeda> ... it is reasonable to design for people that we know who will use it
16:25:10 <juansequeda> Souri: I agree that we need to have a RDF syntax. 
16:25:15 <juansequeda> ... we should be open to the XML syntax
16:26:05 <juansequeda> ... with an open poll, we will probably get feedback about RDF and not about XML
16:26:33 <juansequeda> cygri: from the poll, we can see that the RDF syntax should be done
16:26:52 <juansequeda> ... I don't think anybody will object for the RDF syntax
16:27:05 <juansequeda> ... some people say that the custom and xml is not a good idea
16:27:23 <juansequeda> ... We could start with the RDF syntax for the FWPD
16:27:24 <boris> boris has joined #RDB2RDF
16:27:56 <juansequeda> ... expressing the same thing in another syntax is not a huge problem when we already have nailed down what we want in the first syntax
16:28:09 <juansequeda> Souri: yes, let's make an equivalent XML syntax on the way
16:28:14 <ericP> q+ to say that we can ask for explicit feedback in FPWD
16:28:33 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:28:33 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that we can ask for explicit feedback in FPWD
16:28:49 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: it seems that we have a new proposal of going forth with the RDF syntax with a synchronized XML syntax
16:29:15 <juansequeda> ericP: if we show in the doc both syntaxes, we can have the question in the doc if people like this
16:29:32 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: use RDF/Turtle in FPWD + keep XML syntax in sync and ask for feedback in FPWD
16:30:09 <ericP> second
16:30:13 <cygri> +1
16:30:15 <juansequeda> mhausenblas, everybody agrees?
16:30:18 <juansequeda> +1 
16:30:52 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: WG has decided to use RDF/Turtle in FPWD + keep XML syntax in sync and ask for feedback in FPWD
16:31:01 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:31:24 <juansequeda> Souri: for the RDF syntax, we need to work hard so it can stay simple and it corresponds to each of the things in XML
16:31:44 <juansequeda> ... there should be a 1:1 correspondence 
16:32:10 <juansequeda> cygri: in the RDF draft, I took the XML example and tried to write it in RDF. There are a few things that I didn't know how to write them
16:32:17 <juansequeda> ... so I know there are some things that don't match
16:32:30 <juansequeda> ... we need to start writing them down, and see what them mean and how they work
16:33:21 <juansequeda> Souri: if I can look at the RDF, how can I translate it to XML and vice-versa
16:33:42 <mhausenblas> Topic: FPWD
16:34:00 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/
16:34:01 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: I would suggest to work directly on the document and not on the wiki
16:34:14 <juansequeda> ... who volunteers to edit this?
16:34:33 <juansequeda> ... we need people in the next 2 weeks to start writing this editor draft
16:34:52 <Souri> I don't mind editing with Richard (and if Seema agrees)
16:34:53 <juansequeda> cygri: I can
16:35:13 <Seema> I can help out too
16:36:07 <juansequeda> <talking logistics of cvs >
16:37:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: editors of the FPWD are Souri, Seema and Richard
16:37:15 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: what is the title of that document?
16:37:46 <Souri> Language for Mapping Relational Data to RDF ?
16:37:59 <juansequeda> Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language
16:38:13 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: R2RML - Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language
16:38:23 <juansequeda> +1
16:39:20 <juansequeda> <discussion about title>
16:39:38 <juansequeda> cygri: is R2RML the fixed name? or can it be changed?
16:39:55 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: yes it can be changed
16:40:16 <juansequeda> ericP: ML usually means Markup Language
16:40:17 <ericP> PROPOSAL: Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language
16:40:55 <juansequeda> ericP: don't give a name for the language... yet
16:41:11 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: but we used R2RML for the Use case doc
16:41:18 <juansequeda> ericP: so are we committed? 
16:41:22 <mhausenblas> +1 ericP's proposal
16:41:47 <juansequeda> macted: we need to have a place holder
16:42:10 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: It doesn't need to be in the title, but we can still use R2RML as a placeholder
16:42:27 <juansequeda> ericP: if it is not used in the title, then we can change the name of the language later
16:42:32 <MacTed> +1 title change
16:43:04 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: WG decided that the FPWD will have the title "Relational Database to RDF Mapping Language"
16:43:30 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: how will the editors plan to incorporate the semantics
16:43:53 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: having the semantics as a separate document
16:45:10 <juansequeda> juansequeda: recommend to have different document for the direct mapping and semantics
16:46:08 <juansequeda> cygri, didn't catch what you said
16:47:44 <juansequeda> cygri: in two weeks we can have something worth discussing
16:47:57 <cygri> juansequeda: i suggested to first create a skeleton of the document addressing the syntax, and when that is done discuss about how to fit the semantics in (same or separate doc)
16:48:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: Ashok are you available for chairing next week?
16:48:10 <juansequeda> cygri, thanks and +1
16:48:39 <Souri> I agree, 2 weeks is more realistic (we'll be out Sep 19-23, and at risk for sep 22)
16:48:48 <cygri> there's a language "R2R" already in the RDF world: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/r2r/
16:49:40 <Ashok> Yes, I should be able to chair next week
16:49:47 <mhausenblas> great, thanks!
16:49:58 <juansequeda> ericP: could we get the direct mapping doc out quickly, because it has been 3 months since our last publication
16:49:59 <mhausenblas> focusing on direct mapping next week, ok?
16:50:13 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: let's discuss the direct mapping next week
16:51:23 <juansequeda> Souri: I won't be in 2 weeks
16:51:34 <juansequeda> ... it's fine if Richard presents
16:52:22 <mhausenblas> Topic: AOB
16:52:29 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: good meeting. next week Ashok will chair and we will talk about the direct mapping
16:52:42 <juansequeda> ... sooner or later we should have a f2f meeting
16:53:08 <Ashok> I suggest after we have a FRWD
16:53:20 <Ashok> s/FRWD/FPWD/
16:53:23 <juansequeda> ... it might make sense that once we have the first draft, we can have a f2f so we can keep editing
16:54:05 <Zakim> restarting bot in 2 minutes to recover bridge state
16:55:35 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:55:46 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
16:56:52 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
16:56:56 <mhausenblas> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:57:01 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:57:42 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
16:57:42 <RRSAgent> I see no action items