IRC log of svg on 2010-09-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:12:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
08:12:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc
08:12:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:12:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
08:12:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
08:12:50 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:12:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:12:51 [trackbot]
Date: 06 September 2010
08:13:02 [ed]
topic: ISSUE-2368
08:13:09 [cyril]
ISSUE-2368?
08:13:09 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2368 -- Problems with grammars for numbers -- raised
08:13:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2368
08:13:57 [cyril]
CC: I think the BNF grammar for points and paths has a bug
08:14:13 [cyril]
... missing '?' after the exponent
08:14:31 [cyril]
... and also is not correclty aligned with the <number> datatype
08:14:47 [cyril]
... which does not allow integer followed by just a '.' without digits
08:14:59 [cyril]
... I propose to merge the datatype definitions
08:15:52 [cyril]
ED: agreed
08:16:06 [cyril]
ACTION: Cyril to propose new wording for the spec for ISSUE-2368
08:16:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2843 - Propose new wording for the spec for ISSUE-2368 [on Cyril Concolato - due 2010-09-13].
08:17:09 [cyril]
scribe: Cyril
08:17:15 [cyril]
scribenick: Cyril
08:20:20 [cyril]
topic: CSS Transitions and Animations
08:21:47 [cyril]
ED: let's start with transitions
08:21:53 [cyril]
DS: that's a higher priority
08:22:10 [cyril]
ED: Mozilla implements transitions on SVG properties
08:22:14 [cyril]
... ?
08:22:31 [cyril]
ED: Can you do paint server animations ? gradient interpolations ?
08:22:55 [cyril]
JW: WE implement animation on anything that's a CSS properties
08:23:06 [cyril]
... we cannot animate attributes that are not CSS
08:23:18 [jwatt]
s/CSS properties/CSS properties I would think
08:24:18 [cyril]
DS: we should ask the CSS WG to consider transitions to apply to attributes in SVG
08:25:14 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/
08:26:38 [cyril]
ED: there is a transition-property property, maybe there should be a transition-attribute property
08:27:12 [ed]
DS: or perhaps the transition-property should handle both attributes and properties
08:27:21 [cyril]
ACTION: Doug to contact the CSS WG about a transition-attribute property or equivalent
08:27:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2844 - Contact the CSS WG about a transition-attribute property or equivalent [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-13].
08:27:57 [cyril]
CC: Can you start a CSS transition interactively ?
08:28:02 [cyril]
ED: sort of ...
08:28:14 [cyril]
... you'd have to change the class name based on a click
08:29:58 [cyril]
ED: the CSS animation module spec is a bit more advanced, covers more functionnality
08:31:23 [cyril]
ED: we need to spell out somewhere how the CSS transition/animation model fits with the SMIL sandwich model
08:32:16 [cyril]
ACTION: Erik to see what implementations are doing with regards to CSS transitions and SMIL sandwich models
08:32:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2845 - See what implementations are doing with regards to CSS transitions and SMIL sandwich models [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-09-13].
08:33:03 [cyril]
ED: I have examples mixing CSS animations/transitions and SMIL animations
08:37:58 [cyril]
AD: we treat the CSS animation/transition as a single interval in the SMIL timing sandwich model
08:38:32 [cyril]
AD: when the CSS animation begins it goes on top of the sandwich
08:39:14 [cyril]
CC: what about the additive behavior
08:39:26 [cyril]
AD: we have to pick a default behavior for CSS animations
08:39:32 [cyril]
... probably additive
08:40:43 [cyril]
CC: what happens when a property is animated on a g element with CSS and is inherited by a child element
08:40:59 [cyril]
... does it behave as if it was animated using SVG animations
08:41:22 [cyril]
JW: Mozilla does not support animations of gradients
08:41:59 [ed]
http://dahlström.net/svg/css3/transitions/
08:42:46 [anthony]
s/support animations of gradients/support CSS transitions of CSS gradients/
08:45:18 [cyril]
ED: CSS transitions of CSS gradients is complex because you have to fetch gradients and do the animation properly if they have the same number of stops
08:45:39 [tbah]
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08:46:54 [cyril]
DS: I'm worried about the schedule of implementations
08:47:15 [cyril]
... I wouldn't be surprised if the next versions of browsers include transitions
08:47:37 [cyril]
... we need to check this issue carrefully
08:47:43 [cyril]
... but there is no active editor
08:49:58 [shepazu]
s/there is no active editor/there doesn't seem to be recent editing activity/
08:50:49 [cyril]
DS: implementations seem to be moving forward regardless of the progress of the spec on the Rec track
08:52:13 [cyril]
... so this is problematic from a coordination view point because unless the spec is updated the implementations will only match the current draft not what is the best for SVG and HTML
08:52:41 [cyril]
AD: I created an ISSUE-2369
08:52:48 [cyril]
ISSUE-2369?
08:52:48 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2369 -- Define CSS3+SMIL behaviour for 'inherit' -- raised
08:52:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2369
08:54:54 [cyril]
JW: it may not be problematic for mozilla's implementation because we use a moz prefix
08:55:18 [cyril]
DS: it depends on how quickly you can update that
08:59:01 [cyril]
DS: we should schedule an FX call on this issue
08:59:14 [cyril]
ED: we need to prepare a clear agenda and material
08:59:57 [cyril]
DS: we need 1) an analysis of transitions and how it should affect SVG, we need to publish that on a wiki
09:00:17 [cyril]
... 2) pointing the CSS WG to that and then make an FX call
09:00:42 [cyril]
... Who's prepared to make this analysis
09:00:48 [cyril]
... ?
09:01:26 [cyril]
CC: there are 2 points: the timing issue and the inherit issue
09:01:31 [cyril]
ED: I'm interested into it
09:02:31 [cyril]
ACTION: Erik to prepare a draft about the relationships between CSS transitions and SVG
09:02:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2846 - Prepare a draft about the relationships between CSS transitions and SVG [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-09-13].
09:03:05 [cyril]
DS: I don't think CSS animations is that urgent
09:03:16 [cyril]
ED: I don't know well enough about it
09:04:31 [cyril]
topic: paint servers
09:04:50 [cyril]
TB: we would like to see mesh gradients
09:05:05 [cyril]
... matching the PDF version so that you can export easily
09:05:10 [cyril]
AD: that is a good idea
09:05:13 [cyril]
ED: me too
09:05:27 [cyril]
TB: we don't have a spec yet
09:05:37 [cyril]
... PDF has 4 types of mesh gradients
09:05:59 [cyril]
... one of them is Coons patch
09:06:20 [cyril]
... the formula's in the Adobe spec
09:08:05 [cyril]
s/PDF/The litterature/
09:09:22 [cyril]
AD: I see the Coons patch was formulated in 1967
09:09:31 [cyril]
... is a great candidate for inclusion in SVG
09:09:58 [cyril]
CC: VRML also has a mesh gradients, it was specified in 1997
09:10:55 [cyril]
ED: everyone agrees that it's nice to have
09:10:59 [cyril]
AD: yes
09:11:09 [cyril]
AD: we need a draft of specification (syntax ...)
09:12:50 [cyril]
ACTION: Tav to draft report on Coons patches
09:12:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2847 - Draft report on Coons patches [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-13].
09:13:45 [cyril]
DS: I always wanted to have a gradient along a path (spline interpolated gradient)
09:14:01 [cyril]
... this is a precursor for diffusion curves
09:15:09 [cyril]
TB: someone wanted to have a spiral gradient
09:15:54 [cyril]
AD: what is the use case ? who would use it ?
09:16:25 [cyril]
AG: I see a use case for a black to white gradient along a path
09:17:00 [cyril]
AD: once you have the idea for spline interpolation, you can use the whole path syntax
09:19:25 [cyril]
AD: you're actually talking about a gradient that is normal to the tangent of the path
09:19:49 [cyril]
TB: what do you do at sharp corners
09:22:24 [cyril]
AD: there are also issues when the path is self intersecting and if there are are many tangents at a given point of the path
09:22:54 [cyril]
AD: someone has to do some research on this aspects
09:23:05 [cyril]
s/this aspects/these aspects/
09:23:30 [cyril]
DS: from an authoring view point, it would be cool and useful for diffusion curves
09:24:21 [cyril]
AG: Tav, did you have feedback on diffusion curves from the Inkscape community
09:24:42 [cyril]
TB: not that I have seen on the mailing list, but there are other forums that I don't monitor
09:25:38 [cyril]
ISSUE: Investigate gradients along a path for SVG 2
09:25:38 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2370 - Investigate gradients along a path for SVG 2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2370/edit .
09:30:20 [cyril]
AG: we are still looking at the diffusion curves and I'll have some report soon
09:31:13 [cyril]
DS: CSS allows image as a paint server
09:31:31 [cyril]
AD: I would like to have a video as a paint server
09:31:36 [cyril]
CC: that's called texture mapping
09:32:27 [cyril]
ED: currently, we could do it with a pattern but we could extend it or change it so that if a fill points to an image or video element, you basically generate that as a pattern
09:32:44 [cyril]
AD: it could be using object bouding box
09:32:56 [cyril]
ED: but we have to look at image or video at the native resolution
09:33:30 [cyril]
DS: SVG introduced a bad designed by forcing everything that is referenced to use an element (marker, clipPath ...)
09:33:46 [cyril]
... use and symbol break this design and that's good
09:34:00 [cyril]
... those specialized element give you only the viewpoint
09:34:18 [cyril]
... but that could be defined generally
09:34:35 [cyril]
AD: in XPS there is a concept of a brush
09:34:50 [cyril]
... the brush can be an image, a gradient, a video ...
09:35:01 [cyril]
... GDI works the same
09:35:09 [cyril]
DS: that's a good idea
09:36:20 [cyril]
ISSUE: Allow paint servers to reference images and videos
09:36:20 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2371 - Allow paint servers to reference images and videos ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2371/edit .
09:37:12 [cyril]
TB: we also talked briefly about the hatching
09:37:23 [cyril]
... some inkscape users would be interested into that
09:37:43 [cyril]
... patterns have problems in the connecting of two patterns
09:38:18 [cyril]
AD: Andreas Neumann mentionned some interesting hatching used in HP-GL
09:38:34 [cyril]
... I have open sourced an implementation of HP-GL on the web
09:38:50 [cyril]
DS: is the technology royalty free
09:39:01 [cyril]
AD: HP-GL is more than 20 years old
09:39:41 [cyril]
ISSUE: Investigate hatching for SVG 2
09:39:42 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2372 - Investigate hatching for SVG 2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2372/edit .
09:40:20 [cyril]
AD: www.ishtek.com/hpgl2.htm
10:47:16 [ed]
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11:14:15 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
11:14:25 [anthony]
ScribeNick: anthony
11:14:46 [anthony]
Topic: Demos
11:14:58 [anthony]
DS: Andrew Matseevesky
11:15:02 [anthony]
... showed me this demo
11:15:33 [anthony]
... during the conference I showed catmull-ron curves
11:15:43 [anthony]
... and he suggested an alternative way to do the curves
11:16:08 [anthony]
... This is a basic thing
11:16:26 [anthony]
... [Shows demo using Andrew's drawing tool]
11:17:03 [anthony]
... He calculates the control points on the spline itself
11:17:10 [anthony]
AD: What's the technique?
11:17:24 [anthony]
DS: Squares are the end points
11:17:30 [anthony]
... and the circles are control points
11:17:34 [anthony]
CC: What order?
11:17:42 [anthony]
AD: Is it putting an artificial point on a path
11:17:46 [anthony]
... looks like knots
11:18:04 [anthony]
TB: The control points can't be on the path
11:18:11 [anthony]
DS: Sorry, the handles are on the path
11:18:55 [anthony]
... he suggested instead of catmull-ron curves
11:19:02 [anthony]
... that you could basically break up a path into
11:19:05 [anthony]
... multiple points
11:19:23 [anthony]
... other people understood the maths
11:19:31 [anthony]
... I couldn't understand the maths
11:19:53 [anthony]
... other thing I wanted to show
11:19:59 [anthony]
... was his method of painting gradients
11:20:12 [anthony]
... first click fills the area
11:20:35 [anthony]
... second click adds colour to the original fill to create the gradient
11:21:10 [anthony]
... subsequent clicks adds a new colour
11:21:47 [anthony]
... not sure if that is approximating something
11:23:31 [anthony]
... This is sort of like a mesh gradient
11:23:51 [anthony]
CL: Seems to be building one up on the fly
11:26:39 [anthony]
DS: Not sure if it's interesting from an SVG point of view
11:29:41 [anthony]
JW: I'm not getting it from the point of view of an author how you would predict it's behaviour
11:30:02 [anthony]
AG: Particularly for animation
11:30:07 [anthony]
... you lay these things down
11:30:10 [anthony]
... then animate it
11:30:18 [anthony]
... might get an unknown result
11:31:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
11:37:13 [anthony]
AD: Need to figure out what editors export and draw
11:37:18 [anthony]
... and support those
11:38:20 [anthony]
... things like diffusion curves are really neat but might be able to do the same things using other technologies
11:38:37 [anthony]
DS: Thing is you can't have hit testing on diffusion curves because they make up a shap
11:38:44 [anthony]
s/shap/shape/
11:38:54 [anthony]
CL: I always thought of them as a paint server
11:39:14 [anthony]
... just seemed easier to clip
11:39:22 [anthony]
... much easier to cut out the shape than keep inside the line
11:39:38 [anthony]
DS: It's a singular paint server for a single element
11:39:48 [anthony]
... mesh gradients can be applied to multiple points
11:40:07 [anthony]
AG: Could use SVG point for mesh gradient
11:46:27 [anthony]
ACTION: Alex to Implement trimesh gradients using phong shading model
11:46:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2848 - Implement trimesh gradients using phong shading model [on Alex Danilo - due 2010-09-13].
11:50:23 [anthony]
Topic: Font description features
11:50:43 [anthony]
CL: Related to CSS3
11:50:55 [anthony]
... how the changes between CSS effects us
11:51:10 [anthony]
... and what things you'll be able to do and not be able to do anymore and stuff
11:51:34 [anthony]
... So CSS2 had 3 things you could with fonts
11:51:54 [anthony]
... you could intelligently match on their characteristics rather than the name
11:52:09 [anthony]
... the second one was synthesis
11:52:43 [anthony]
... i.e. make me a font with certain characteristics
11:52:58 [anthony]
... the third one was download
11:53:05 [anthony]
... SVG 1 dropped the first two
11:53:11 [anthony]
... and just supported download
11:53:20 [anthony]
... CSS2.1 dropped all of them
11:53:30 [anthony]
... CCS3 makes the same choices that SVG did
11:53:37 [anthony]
... i.e. only supports download
11:53:40 [anthony]
... but does make some changes
11:53:47 [anthony]
... the way that small caps are specified
11:53:49 [anthony]
... has changed
11:54:19 [anthony]
... all the implementations faked up small caps
11:54:31 [anthony]
... CSS3 talks about platform limitations
11:54:35 [anthony]
... that need to be taken into account
11:55:13 [anthony]
... which is the weight of the fonts
11:55:42 [anthony]
... One of the Windows APIs insist that all fonts have two weights
11:55:47 [anthony]
... instead of multiple weights
11:55:57 [anthony]
... so if you have a font with 6 weights, you will still only get two
11:56:16 [jwatt]
s/APIs/APIs (GDI)/
11:56:40 [anthony]
JW: Does DirectWrite support more than two weights?
11:56:42 [anthony]
AD: Yes
11:57:39 [anthony]
CL: Firefox has a new font engine that's currently switched off
11:58:41 [anthony]
... One of the changes in CSS3 fonts is when you write an @font-face weight, the weight gets used
12:05:45 [anthony]
... [show's demo]
12:05:57 [anthony]
... Notice that this is a font with four different weights
12:06:02 [anthony]
... and this is Windows XP
12:06:14 [anthony]
CC: Viewer?
12:06:20 [anthony]
CL: Firefox minefield
12:06:29 [anthony]
... this font family has the weights
12:06:38 [anthony]
... CSS says how you handle the weights
12:06:41 [anthony]
... it's allocated the weights
12:07:06 [anthony]
... that's using @font-face
12:07:18 [anthony]
... so using the fonts used on my system
12:07:24 [anthony]
... only get two weights
12:07:28 [anthony]
... instead of four
12:07:32 [anthony]
... so we should align with this
12:07:42 [anthony]
... exactly and completely
12:07:54 [anthony]
DS: To that end, should we simply reference that?
12:08:02 [anthony]
CL: We have an XML syntax
12:08:11 [anthony]
... but we could do some sort of normative reference
12:09:32 [anthony]
... Straight into stylistic sets now
12:09:39 [anthony]
... same font with same text
12:10:08 [anthony]
... have different style types on the letters
12:10:15 [anthony]
... it's an OpenType feature
12:10:18 [anthony]
... still searchable
12:10:22 [anthony]
... still the same text
12:10:31 [anthony]
... and the fall back is the same line
12:11:02 [anthony]
... this is discretionary ligatures
12:11:19 [anthony]
... here is one where there are small letters tucked into other letters
12:11:29 [anthony]
... Swash forms
12:11:49 [anthony]
... when it has more space it does different swash
12:11:56 [anthony]
... the fall back is again the top line
12:12:00 [anthony]
CC: What is the syntax?
12:12:12 [anthony]
CL: Syntax is currently under discussion in the CSS Working Group at the moment
12:12:22 [anthony]
TB: Mozilla supports ligatures?
12:12:24 [anthony]
CL: Yes
12:12:44 [anthony]
TB: Inkscape puts the ligatures in, but they don't come up
12:12:51 [anthony]
JW: We should look into that
12:13:33 [anthony]
DS: Could be a bug. I know cases where ligatures disappear when you put them on a path. Even on straight path
12:15:18 [anthony]
CL: My proposal is we align completely with what CSS3 Fonts says
12:15:26 [anthony]
... I'd be prepared to do any editing work necessary
12:15:37 [anthony]
DS: This is for SVG 2 or 1.1?
12:15:39 [anthony]
CL: Just SVG 2
12:15:52 [anthony]
AG: I'm happy with it
12:16:00 [anthony]
AD: Ok, makes sense
12:16:07 [anthony]
DS: ooo and arrrr
12:16:18 [anthony]
... Enthusiastic agreement
12:16:48 [shepazu]
s/arrrr/ahhhhh/
12:18:08 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We agree that in SVG 2 we will completely align with CSS 3 Fonts
12:19:56 [anthony]
Topic: HTML + SVG in no-HTML User Agents
12:21:48 [anthony]
DS: There are three basic ideas:
12:22:01 [anthony]
... one is SVG shouldn't have text wrapping
12:22:19 [anthony]
... second position should have basic word srapping
12:22:34 [anthony]
... third is SVG should not rely on HTML to do any word wrapping
12:22:50 [anthony]
s/srapping/wrapping/
12:23:15 [anthony]
CL: The second point could be broken up
12:23:25 [anthony]
... it was more about the formatting
12:23:31 [anthony]
... rather than the markup
12:23:59 [anthony]
JW: Might be time to rethink the box model
12:24:13 [anthony]
... need be able to handle shapes that are not box model
12:24:26 [anthony]
... need to talk to people in Mozilla
12:24:40 [anthony]
AD: One thing is need to think about the pure SVG world
12:24:43 [anthony]
... such as IPTV
12:24:48 [anthony]
... where they want wrapping
12:25:05 [anthony]
... but they don't want to pull in another names space
12:25:25 [anthony]
CL: We had wrapping text in a shape, but we couldn't do two paragraphs
12:25:53 [anthony]
... it was basically, here's some text, here's a shape and fit it
12:26:11 [anthony]
DS: If we want deeply structured text
12:26:18 [anthony]
... there should be some HTML involved here
12:26:34 [anthony]
... paragraphs, tables
12:26:42 [anthony]
... should be able to pull in a subset
12:26:46 [anthony]
CL: Couldn't restrict it
12:27:56 [anthony]
AD: All you're doing is replacing invisible GIF with the ability to fill text into a shape
12:28:12 [anthony]
... that's the join that is the most useful from a design point of view
12:28:23 [anthony]
DS: From a specification point of we shouldn't limit HTML
12:28:38 [anthony]
... but from best practices point of view
12:28:56 [anthony]
CL: I see two classes of UAs
12:29:07 [anthony]
... Pure SVG UAs and one that knows about HTML and other standards
12:29:19 [anthony]
... I'm not seeing a third class
12:29:29 [anthony]
... that can do SVG and bits of other things
12:29:58 [anthony]
DS: Do we have to assume that all aspects of the box model will apply
12:30:11 [anthony]
AD: The only reason we never went with it
12:30:18 [anthony]
... was we could never solved the margin problem
12:31:28 [anthony]
... so those problems were two hard to solve with complex shapes
12:31:33 [anthony]
... which is why we said drop margins
12:31:53 [anthony]
... and we said if you're using an odd polygon, don't use padding and margins
12:32:03 [anthony]
... we thought about stand alone SVG
12:32:08 [anthony]
... the work should be revisited
12:32:12 [anthony]
... in light of SVG being in HTML
12:32:52 [anthony]
... bringing complex wrapping to SVG, offered things that other standards couldn't
12:33:10 [anthony]
... we were address use cases where the shape was not a box
12:33:27 [anthony]
DS: This comes back to a concern that TB had
12:33:37 [anthony]
... we're talking about aligning more closely with HTML
12:33:43 [anthony]
... and this is great for some UAs
12:33:48 [anthony]
... but a problem with other UAs
12:34:33 [anthony]
... we need to be careful that we don't abandon pure SVG UAs
12:35:08 [anthony]
... TextArea was poorly named
12:35:18 [anthony]
... I would suggest we break here with SVG Tiny 1.2
12:35:19 [anthony]
on this
12:36:02 [anthony]
... I suggest we have a mechanism, where we have something called a text shape
12:36:22 [anthony]
... you would reference a shape and say wrap to this shape
12:36:26 [anthony]
AD: So we have clipPath
12:36:45 [anthony]
... so we can reference textShape
12:37:00 [anthony]
JW: Putting aside SVG only UAs
12:37:21 [anthony]
... the sensible thing to do is the ability in HTML to reference an SVG
12:37:28 [anthony]
... the whole flowing concept wouldn't exist in SVG
12:37:33 [anthony]
... it would exist in HTML
12:37:37 [anthony]
... the shape comes from SVG
12:37:44 [anthony]
ED: That would be useful in SVG as well
12:38:04 [anthony]
JW: In SVG you have a coordinate system
12:38:51 [anthony]
AD: Unless you have an anonymous block
12:39:04 [anthony]
... it has it's own coordinate system that moves inside the block
12:39:12 [anthony]
JW: Taking an SVG element that's implicit
12:39:21 [anthony]
DS: You're suggesting that the syntax is like flow-shape
12:39:24 [anthony]
... as property
12:39:29 [anthony]
... that you apply
12:39:41 [anthony]
... I think that it should take multiple values
12:39:49 [anthony]
... a comma separated list of shapes
12:40:04 [anthony]
AD: You'd have to address what happens when you the shapes fill up
12:40:21 [anthony]
... we've addressed what happens when you have donut shapes and self intersecting paths
12:40:39 [tbah]
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Text-Flow.html
12:41:29 [anthony]
JW: Cameron looked into flow stuff at some length
12:41:34 [anthony]
CL: As part of constraints
12:43:00 [anthony]
TB: Inkscape implemented this SVG Full 1.2 feature
12:43:15 [anthony]
... Inkscape still exports this
12:43:20 [anthony]
CL: Batik implemented this
12:44:58 [anthony]
DS: Here is one suggestion for Inkscape. If we did this type of text flow, it would be very easy to take old Inkscape content
12:45:03 [anthony]
... and convert it to this sytnax
12:45:12 [anthony]
... that would work
12:45:26 [anthony]
... CSS WG and XSL-FO WG are already interested in this
12:45:41 [anthony]
... we could tell them that we are considering a property
12:45:56 [anthony]
AD: Would be nice to have use case and requirements
12:46:44 [anthony]
... I can see so much merit in saying, here's a complex polygon and fill it with your HTML content
12:47:25 [anthony]
... so image and tables would be treated as rectangular blocks
12:47:35 [anthony]
... and if they look really tiny, they look really tiny
12:48:16 [anthony]
JW: And you could say how much overlap and colouring outside the lines you could do
12:49:30 [anthony]
DS: People shouldn't wrap images and iFrames
12:50:14 [anthony]
AD: Need to keep it simple
12:50:31 [anthony]
... not everyone has access to optical kerning for example
12:51:57 [jwatt]
AD: a lot of the problems were worked out in the now retired SVG 1.2 Full draft http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/flow.html
12:53:00 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Start a write up page on shape-flow-container-galley property
12:53:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2849 - Start a write up page on shape-flow-container-galley property [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-13].
12:53:42 [anthony]
AD: What do you do with the HTML if you're just in SVG
12:53:59 [anthony]
... So the text between the tags is shown in HTML but not show in SVG
12:54:04 [anthony]
... what does SVG do with the mixed content
12:54:25 [anthony]
DS: Would a solution about the text container flow discussion
12:54:37 [anthony]
... that we have a property that can be applied to SVG or HTML content
12:54:46 [anthony]
... which passes the id of one or more shapes
12:54:51 [anthony]
... to which the text is wrapped
12:55:03 [anthony]
TB: As long as you have the SVG text there covered
12:55:07 [anthony]
... then that's fine
12:55:49 [anthony]
DS: It would be easy for people to author in Inskcape and hand code the HTML that they wanted to use
12:57:57 [anthony]
CC: I think this would work, but with a small note
12:58:04 [anthony]
... when you're doing Tiny on embedded platforms
12:58:11 [anthony]
... the computation might be too hard
12:58:24 [anthony]
AD: I've done the flow text for any platform
12:58:30 [anthony]
... it's not very expensive at all
12:58:51 [anthony]
CC: I think it's a nice trick
13:00:19 [anthony]
DS: Do we take into account stroke?
13:00:31 [anthony]
AD: Have to decide, might find it harder to do it to the stroke
13:04:12 [anthony]
AD: Going to back to my question about what happens to unrecognised content
13:04:32 [anthony]
DS: So I did up this test
13:04:43 [shepazu]
<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
13:04:43 [shepazu]
<circle id="circle_1" cx="75" cy="25" r="20" fill="orange" stroke="red" />
13:04:43 [shepazu]
<foo stroke="green">
13:04:43 [shepazu]
<rect id="rect_1" x="75" y="25" width="40" height="40" fill="lime" />
13:04:44 [shepazu]
</foo>
13:04:44 [shepazu]
<ellipse id="ellipse_1" cx="115" cy="65" rx="25" ry="12" fill="indigo" stroke="indigo"/>
13:04:46 [shepazu]
</svg>
13:05:02 [anthony]
DS: Most user agents do not render the rectangle
13:05:19 [anthony]
... Firefox does render the rectangle
13:05:27 [anthony]
AD: I actually prefer your behaviour
13:05:34 [anthony]
DS: And so do I
13:05:48 [anthony]
... for an extensibility mechanism
13:05:59 [anthony]
... for elements not in the SVG name space
13:06:05 [anthony]
... they essentially act as groups
13:06:20 [anthony]
... in the SVG name space
13:06:27 [anthony]
... but if you do understand the element you render
13:06:37 [anthony]
... as it suppose to be
13:07:34 [anthony]
AD: This is useful for the case in geo mapping
13:07:43 [anthony]
... where the is a global geo transform
13:08:15 [anthony]
... currently they have to make it a sibling of the SVG to make it work
13:08:27 [anthony]
... and do these horrible hacks for it work
13:08:35 [anthony]
... where as if it were a parent
13:08:41 [anthony]
... wouldn't have to do these hacks
13:08:49 [anthony]
JW: Seems like you could get bitten doing this
13:09:00 [anthony]
DS: From an accessibility point of view
13:09:11 [anthony]
... if you had a connector and it had a child path
13:09:18 [anthony]
... if the UA didn't understand connector
13:09:31 [anthony]
... you'd still get the path nested inside the connector
13:10:01 [anthony]
... so a UA like inkscape could output connector for example
13:10:10 [anthony]
... and it would work in firefox
13:10:25 [anthony]
AD: Rather than using meta data in inkscape
13:10:31 [anthony]
... where groups are overloaded as layers
13:10:42 [anthony]
... could have a <layer> and it would just work
13:11:00 [anthony]
ED: We tried to walk into subtrees we don't understand
13:11:16 [anthony]
... more efficient than walking the tree to find something you understand
13:11:50 [anthony]
DS: So things not in the SVG name space it is ignored
13:12:03 [anthony]
ED: It's not going to work in the deployed UAs but it's a nice idea
13:13:08 [ed]
s/We tried to walk into subtrees we don't understand/opera cuts off subtrees that are rooted by unknown elements (in both svg and other namespaces)/
13:14:39 [anthony]
ED: This kind of proposal will work fine
13:14:47 [anthony]
DS: Inkscape will not have to change
13:14:52 [anthony]
CC: What about text
13:15:20 [anthony]
... what if you had a <foo> with text content inside and this <foo> is child of <text>
13:15:29 [anthony]
ED: So it's an unknown text element
13:15:40 [anthony]
AD: Just decide if it is displayed or not
13:15:57 [anthony]
ED: Have you tried that test?
13:21:28 [anthony]
AG: So is this going to work for pure SVG UAs only?
13:21:50 [anthony]
... or this is not going to apply to UAs that understand HTML + SVG
13:24:03 [anthony]
DS: The element might be put in the HTML namespace
13:24:19 [anthony]
... shouldn't cause any problems but wouldn't be ideal
13:25:51 [anthony]
ED: I think it would take someone to write a proposal first
13:26:00 [anthony]
... from this discussion it doesn't seem too hard
13:26:07 [anthony]
DS: I could write something up in integration
13:27:15 [anthony]
... right now in SVG 1.1 it says to "ignore" them and doesn't define what "ignore" means
13:27:34 [anthony]
... SVG Tiny 1.2 "ignore" is defined
13:27:50 [anthony]
AD: Don't think it'd be a problem
13:28:11 [anthony]
... most of it is done as controlled deployment space
13:31:01 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
13:32:25 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Add the idea of processing children of unknown elements in the SVG namespaces to the integration specification
13:32:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2850 - Add the idea of processing children of unknown elements in the SVG namespaces to the integration specification [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-13].
13:35:35 [anthony]
Topic: Shape path
13:37:36 [ChrisL]
OT http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVGmeetup-Paris.html
13:41:29 [anthony]
ED: Text on a path is laying out text on a path
13:41:44 [anthony]
... so putting shapes on a path is similar
13:41:55 [anthony]
CL: What do you do with the varying shape sizes
13:42:05 [anthony]
... and their x & y positions?
13:42:17 [anthony]
... does that mean you need a 'g' like element
13:42:27 [anthony]
... that gathers together a collection
13:42:31 [anthony]
... and puts it on a path
13:42:41 [anthony]
... if you have a container you reference the container
13:42:52 [anthony]
DS: Would we create a new container?
13:43:04 [anthony]
... or would it be a property on <g>?
13:43:16 [anthony]
CL: You wouldn't use an SVG for each one
13:43:23 [anthony]
DS: Then there's a question of orientation
13:43:27 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
13:43:37 [anthony]
... do you honour the x & y, the cx & cy
13:44:11 [anthony]
CL: The x & y would be ignored
13:44:17 [anthony]
AD: What's the use case?
13:45:10 [anthony]
DS: The people who have already been doing this with fonts
13:45:14 [ChrisL]
avoiding misusing text (text on a path) for decorative shapes
13:45:39 [anthony]
... if you wanted to have a pattern along a line
13:45:58 [anthony]
... might be a good substitute for markers
13:46:12 [anthony]
AD: Cartographers might like this
13:46:25 [anthony]
CL: For markers you want to give an explicit x & y position
13:46:41 [anthony]
ED: If there was an implementation that did full SVG fonts you'd already do that
13:46:48 [anthony]
... but it's not the right way to do it
13:48:09 [anthony]
DS: Next step is to draw the use case and requirements
13:49:01 [anthony]
CL: It's shapes repeated along a path
13:49:31 [anthony]
DS: We hadn't decided if this was for laying out existing shapes or creating a pattern
13:50:29 [anthony]
AG: Maybe that's what the x & y of a shape mean
13:50:49 [anthony]
... it's an offset from the tangent and the normal
13:51:15 [anthony]
AD: You need a positioning mechanism
13:51:42 [anthony]
DS: I think we need to go to a use case and requirements document
13:52:57 [anthony]
... this is different to shape path
13:53:08 [anthony]
... because it didn't have repetition
13:53:52 [anthony]
... if you were doing a train or a train track you wouldn't want all these elements in the DOM
13:53:58 [anthony]
... maybe it's a pattern in that sense
13:54:16 [anthony]
CL: Who's pushing for this and who is going to write it up?
13:54:34 [anthony]
DS: I expect the Mapping Taskforce
13:54:40 [anthony]
ED: I think that's a good starting point
13:55:25 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Talk to Andreas about shapes on path and stroke patterns about drawing up use case and requirements
13:55:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2851 - Talk to Andreas about shapes on path and stroke patterns about drawing up use case and requirements [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-13].
13:58:27 [anthony]
Topic: Path on a path
13:58:35 [anthony]
TB: This is about using a path to deform an object
13:59:47 [anthony]
... this is useful for varying the stroke using a shape or a path
14:00:48 [anthony]
... [shows a demo]
14:01:01 [anthony]
DS: How would it work on a syntactic level?
14:01:07 [anthony]
TB: You'd define a shape
14:02:00 [anthony]
... Right now Inkscape does a whole bunch of things with live path effects
14:02:52 [anthony]
CL: So if the mathematics in the deformation defined on how it works?
14:03:03 [anthony]
TB: If you want the formula I can extract it
14:03:46 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
14:03:50 [tbah]
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects.html
14:05:10 [anthony]
ED: Would be nice to have a full description
14:05:25 [anthony]
DS: Do people like the idea?
14:05:40 [anthony]
CL: It's a different way to how we thought about doing variable stroke width
14:08:15 [anthony]
ACTION: Tav to Extract the maths from Inkscape for path on path and write a report
14:08:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2852 - Extract the maths from Inkscape for path on path and write a report [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-13].
14:08:31 [anthony]
Topic: Spiros
14:09:13 [anthony]
CL: At the type con I was talking about Spiro. I was shown code that did an iteration until it reached a result
14:09:27 [anthony]
... but I was told that you only need three or even one iteration
14:10:32 [anthony]
... the only thing is you might get slight angles that don't match correctly
14:10:36 [anthony]
... but it's very slight
14:11:05 [anthony]
... the algorithm might be something worth considering
14:11:07 [ChrisL]
shown code/shown code by Raph Levein/
14:11:43 [ChrisL]
s/did an/did only one/
14:19:18 [anthony]
DS: I propose we do some shape that takes the same syntax as path
14:19:51 [anthony]
... but has new shape types in it
14:20:03 [ChrisL]
polycurve element. like polyline but ... curved
14:21:26 [ChrisL]
worried that path is too entrenched, cost of changing it is too high
14:22:15 [anthony]
... that's where we'd put the catmull-ron curves as well
14:29:43 [jwatt]
scribe: Jonathan Watt
14:29:44 [jwatt]
scribenick: jwatt
14:29:46 [jwatt]
topic: 2D-transforms
14:32:18 [anthony]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html?rev=1.1
14:34:40 [jwatt]
AG: I've got proposed changes marked by red (remove) and green (add)
14:35:15 [jwatt]
...should "transform affect" just be "transform property" for SVG as well as CSS?
14:36:38 [jwatt]
CL: the default value for 'transform' in CSS is 'none"
14:36:58 [ed]
just for the comparison, here's the latest css3 2d transforms spec: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/
14:37:11 [jwatt]
...we would need to make clear how that interacts with transforms on parent and child elements
14:37:56 [jwatt]
JW: surely it would just act as the identity matrix for matrix concatenation for the purposes of working out the CTM
14:39:08 [jwatt]
TB: there's a lot of discussion on the cairo mailing list far adding perspective transforms to cairo
14:40:26 [jwatt]
AG: so what I've done is my rough pass at merging the two specs, and now we need to tidy it up
14:40:52 [jwatt]
s/list far/list for/
14:41:52 [jwatt]
DS: so this adds transform-origin
14:42:34 [jwatt]
ED: we talked about how transform-origin needs to be fixed for backwards compat
14:42:42 [jwatt]
...in a previous telcon
14:45:16 [ed]
xhttp://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-fx-minutes.html
14:46:21 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-fx-minutes.html
14:54:48 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
15:14:13 [ed]
[back from break]
15:23:52 [jwatt]
AG: I can't see minuting of transform-origin in those minutes
15:24:01 [jwatt]
ED: it could have been a different telcon
15:25:13 [jwatt]
s/minuting of/minuting of a resolution for/
15:25:20 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2010/05/17-fx-minutes.html
15:26:02 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2010/05/03-fx-minutes.html
15:28:23 [jwatt]
ED: what do we need to align with CSS 2D transforms?
15:29:07 [jwatt]
DS: there are some things we should have, such as transform based on an arbitrary point
15:29:31 [jwatt]
CL: I don't believe CSS 2D transforms allows *arbitrary* points
15:30:57 [ChrisL]
we need to add the transform-origin (including auto centre) from CSS to our attribute syntax
15:31:31 [jwatt]
ED: the spec should say that it applies to SVG content, and how
15:31:56 [jwatt]
...and there should be an authoring note saying that if you use the new 2D transforms features it may not work as an attribute
15:32:15 [jwatt]
...but I don't think we need to put the new wording in any other spec than this one
15:32:34 [jwatt]
...so hopefully we can then implement and get something working quicker, without waiting for SVG 2
15:33:10 [jwatt]
...it means we get the transform-origin attribute as well
15:33:57 [jwatt]
CL: we're reusing the 'transform' name?
15:34:01 [jwatt]
ED: yes
15:34:56 [jwatt]
CL: I think SVG 2.0 should clearly mark what is new to make it easier for authors to decide what to use if they're concerned with backwards compat
15:36:18 [jwatt]
topic: Connectors
15:37:02 [jwatt]
CC: connectors as Doug proposes have two parts: the semantics, and the graphical
15:37:20 [jwatt]
...I would prefer to have a path element with connecting semantics on it
15:37:40 [jwatt]
...if you need to change the drawing when two points move, I'd prefer to have a drawing operator
15:41:06 [jwatt]
...so have a path that contains connector elements
15:41:39 [jwatt]
...instead of having connectors with drawing semantics
15:41:54 [jwatt]
...the main difference is that UAs that don't understand connectors would still draw the path, at least initially
15:42:28 [jwatt]
...if the points need to move then it wouldn't be fixed up automatically of course
15:42:47 [jwatt]
DS: I think that's a reasonable syntax
15:43:18 [jwatt]
...I've suggest a connector with a path fallback instead
15:43:36 [jwatt]
CL: put in an editorial comment explaining the alternative and the pros and cons of each
15:44:15 [jwatt]
resolution: publish connectors spec with alternative proposal
15:45:40 [jwatt]
DS: I'm also going to publish a usecases and requirements spec
15:45:53 [jwatt]
...it's not ready for first public working draft yet
15:46:16 [jwatt]
...we don't want comments yet until we've progressed it further ourselves
15:47:51 [jwatt]
topic: SVG points
15:48:40 [jwatt]
TB: what is the orientation?
15:48:47 [jwatt]
...can we have that as a property?
15:48:57 [jwatt]
DS: x-axis
15:49:05 [jwatt]
s/orientation/orientation of a marker/
15:50:14 [ChrisL]
rotations of the marker would be about that point. need syntax for that? or does 'auto' cover it already?
15:51:01 [jwatt]
DS: there's a general question of orientation around a point
15:51:04 [jwatt]
...markers are one
15:51:08 [jwatt]
...text are another
15:51:18 [jwatt]
...you may want it to be independent of transform
15:51:27 [jwatt]
...or dependent on the orientation of the device
15:53:02 [jwatt]
AD: depending on orientation of the device could go wrong
15:53:16 [jwatt]
...things could end up crossing in weird ways
15:53:49 [jwatt]
...probably you want script rather than magic auto reorientation
15:55:05 [jwatt]
...I wonder about the usability from an authoring perspective
15:56:29 [jwatt]
DS: you can always do it using script if you don't want the auto behavior
15:58:18 [jwatt]
resolution: add SVG point to the connectors spec, to possibly be moved later
15:59:14 [jwatt]
action: Doug to spec out SVG point
15:59:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2853 - Spec out SVG point [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-13].
16:00:42 [anthony]
We are concluded for the day
16:00:49 [ChrisL]
adjourned
16:00:49 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-minutes.html anthony
16:01:00 [jwatt]
trackbot: end telcon
16:01:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:01:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-actions.rdf :
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cyril to propose new wording for the spec for ISSUE-2368 [1]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T08-16-06
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to contact the CSS WG about a transition-attribute property or equivalent [2]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T08-27-21
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to see what implementations are doing with regards to CSS transitions and SMIL sandwich models [3]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T08-32-16
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to prepare a draft about the relationships between CSS transitions and SVG [4]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T09-02-31
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Tav to draft report on Coons patches [5]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T09-12-50
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to Implement trimesh gradients using phong shading model [6]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T11-46-27
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to Start a write up page on shape-flow-container-galley property [7]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T12-53-00
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to Add the idea of processing children of unknown elements in the SVG namespaces to the integration specification [8]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T13-32-25
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to Talk to Andreas about shapes on path and stroke patterns about drawing up use case and requirements [9]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T13-55-25
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Tav to Extract the maths from Inkscape for path on path and write a report [10]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T14-08-15
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug to spec out SVG point [11]
16:01:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/06-svg-irc#T15-59-14
16:01:04 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees