13:51:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #contacts
13:51:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-contacts-irc
13:51:37 <tlr> rrsagent, make record public
13:51:40 <Cristina_OMA-CAB> Cristina_OMA-CAB has joined #contacts
13:51:40 <tlr> zakim, this will be contacts
13:51:40 <Zakim> ok, tlr; I see Team_(contacts)14:00Z scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:48 <tlr> Meeting: Contact Coordination
13:52:51 <tlr> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2010Sep/0003.html
13:52:54 <tlr> Chair: tlr
13:57:44 <Zakim> Team_(contacts)14:00Z has now started
13:57:52 <Zakim> + +1.418.656.aaaa
13:57:59 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
13:57:59 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
13:58:00 <Zakim> +Thomas
13:58:29 <tlr> zakim, aaaa is [Viagenie]
13:58:29 <Zakim> +[Viagenie]; got it
13:58:33 <tlr> zakim, Viagenie has MarcBlanchet
13:58:33 <Zakim> +MarcBlanchet; got it
13:58:40 <tlr> zakim, Viagenie has SimonPerrault
13:58:40 <Zakim> +SimonPerrault; got it
13:58:58 <Zakim> +??P6
13:59:15 <tlr> zakim, ??P6 is stpeter
13:59:15 <Zakim> +stpeter; got it
14:01:17 <Suresh> Suresh has joined #contacts
14:01:31 <Zakim> +??P7
14:02:21 <tlr> zakim, ??P7 is DongYoungLee
14:02:21 <Zakim> +DongYoungLee; got it
14:02:36 <Zakim> + +1.425.391.aabb
14:02:40 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:02:42 <richt> richt has joined #contacts
14:02:52 <Dong-Young> Dong-Young has joined #contacts
14:03:09 <tlr> zakim, aabb is Dan?(ATT)
14:03:09 <Zakim> +Dan?(ATT); got it
14:03:10 <Dong-Young> Presence+ Dong-Young_Lee
14:03:10 <Zakim> + +44.208.783.aacc
14:03:16 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aadd
14:03:19 <tlr> zakim, aacc is alexey
14:03:20 <Zakim> + +44.759.510.aaee
14:03:20 <Zakim> +alexey; got it
14:03:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:40 <Dong-Young> Present+ Dong-Young_Lee
14:03:43 <tlr> zakim, aadd is richt
14:03:43 <Zakim> +richt; got it
14:03:47 <Suresh> zakim, +[IPcaller]
14:03:47 <Zakim> I saw [IPcaller] just arrive
14:03:51 <Zakim> + +1.361.889.aaff
14:03:57 <tlr> zakim, aaee is Cristina_OMA
14:03:57 <Zakim> +Cristina_OMA; got it
14:04:10 <Suresh> zakim, [IPcaller] is Suresh
14:04:10 <Zakim> +Suresh; got it
14:04:17 <dom> dom has joined #contacts
14:04:17 <Suresh> Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
14:04:45 <Zakim> + +1.412.420.aagg
14:04:57 <dom> zakim, who's on the call?
14:04:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Viagenie], Thomas, stpeter, DongYoungLee, Dan?(ATT), bryan_sullivan, alexey, richt, Cristina_OMA, Suresh, +1.361.889.aaff, +1.412.420.aagg
14:05:00 <tlr> zakim, aagg is CyrusDaboo
14:05:01 <Zakim> [Viagenie] has SimonPerrault
14:05:02 <Zakim> +CyrusDaboo; got it
14:05:37 <Zakim> +??P24
14:05:40 <dom> zakim, ??P24 is me
14:05:40 <Zakim> +dom; got it
14:06:04 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:06:56 <dom> ScribeNick: Suresh
14:07:10 <dom> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:07:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-contacts-irc#T14-07-10
14:07:15 <Suresh> Topic: Introductions
14:07:42 <Suresh> tlr: W3C defines an API for contacts/address book
14:07:56 <Suresh> Trying to understand the format to use for the API
14:08:34 <Suresh> It currently is based on PoCo, but we are aware of IETF vCard and we have received a liaison from OMA CAB re CAB Format
14:09:25 <Suresh> Topic: Quick overview of the various efforts
14:09:51 <Suresh> IETF Intro
14:10:11 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:10:14 <Suresh> Marc: new version of vCard spec is vCard4.0
14:10:25 <Suresh> Out in Mar 2010
14:10:48 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:10:50 <Suresh> Last occured two months ago, recevied comments, review under progress
14:11:01 <simon> simon has joined #contacts
14:11:01 <Suresh> s/Last/Last Call
14:11:06 <simon> yo
14:11:07 <Zakim> + +1.217.337.aahh
14:11:26 <tlr> zakim, aahh is PeteResnick
14:11:26 <Zakim> +PeteResnick; got it
14:11:29 <Suresh> we are pretty late in the new process for changes but their is some room
14:11:49 <Suresh> tlr: any clarifications?
14:12:03 <Suresh> OMA CAB Intro:
14:12:25 <Suresh> Cristina: OMA CAB is defining a service around address book
14:13:17 <Suresh> The relevance for this discussion is the format for contacts, we considered vcard, poco, and other fields of community interest
14:13:39 <Suresh> we would like to see this format be re-used as much as possible including W3C
14:13:51 <Zakim> +??P26
14:13:57 <danbri> zakim, ??P26 is danbri
14:13:57 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
14:14:09 <tlr> zakim, mute danbri
14:14:09 <Zakim> danbri should now be muted
14:14:10 <Suresh> W3C DAP Intro:
14:15:16 <Suresh> Richard: we are working between the device and the web, we are looking for a solution to address this
14:15:45 <Suresh> we have PoCo which looks like a superset to vCard, but we also have a new format CAB
14:15:56 <stpeter> could the person who is typing in the background kindly mute their audio?
14:16:20 <Suresh> xxx: why do you think vCard is a subset and not a superset?
14:16:22 <danbri> [poco has all the opensocial fields; these aren't in vcard]
14:16:32 <tlr> s/xxx:/stpeter/
14:16:45 <Cristina_OMA-CAB> CAB has considered vCard, PoCo, OpenSocial, OASIS, etc in the CAB format
14:18:49 <Suresh> Suresh: it is not fair to say PoCo is a superset of the vCard, it depends on the version of vCard, etc. to make this judgement
14:19:20 <danbri> (vcard might have also have some constructs not directly in poco, true)
14:19:30 <Suresh> tlr: Cristina, can you clarify from CAB and how you see convergence?
14:19:45 <simon> most input from Joseph Smarr was to take features *out* of vCard to make it aligned on PoCo
14:20:00 <Suresh> Cristina: we have considered all formats including vcard, and PoCo
14:20:09 <tlr> OASIS contacts
14:21:02 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #contacts
14:21:17 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
14:21:40 <Suresh> Mike: we have OMA come to us showing interest but no contributions later on
14:21:51 <dom> s/Mike/Marc/
14:22:24 <Suresh> vCard charter only included binding to XML but did not include functioanlity from OMA
14:22:53 <Suresh> Cristina: Individual companies representation was in IETF but not from OMA
14:23:26 <Zakim> +wonsuk
14:23:30 <Suresh> tlr: are we in a position to converge or are we so far that it is difficult?
14:23:53 <Suresh> Cristina: From OMA, it will be a major change to go back and change the format
14:24:22 <Suresh> Rich: Does this mean there are implementations, or a process issue?
14:24:43 <tantek> tantek has joined #contacts
14:24:57 <tantek> apologies for the delay
14:25:04 <Suresh> Cristina: a little bit of both i.e. implementations and process issue
14:25:18 <tantek> hi danbri
14:25:21 <tantek> what'd I miss? ;)
14:25:30 <Suresh> Jerry: There is also an industry initiative RCS which is considering to use CAB Format
14:25:52 <tantek> RCS (URL?), CAB Format (URL?)
14:26:22 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:26:22 <simon> e.g. genealogy stuff
14:26:31 <Suresh> Peter: In IETF, we considered social network extensions
14:26:32 <nwidell> nwidell has joined #contacts
14:27:13 <Suresh> It has not been an effort to define everything (e.g. zodiac signs) but allow extensions to support new fields
14:27:38 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:27:41 <tantek> genealogy stuff has very little to do with social network extensions - what was the justification for adding the genealogy stuff?
14:27:56 <tantek> (no address book I know of implements any of the genealogy stuff)
14:28:01 <Suresh> tlr: the most important part of divergence seems to be platform piece...can you elaborate on the differences
14:28:08 <simon> no, i mean that genealogy stuff is an example of stuff that was considered for extensions
14:28:09 <dom> zakim, who is noisy?
14:28:17 <simon> it's not in core
14:28:19 <Zakim> dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Dan?(ATT) (5%), Cristina_OMA (5%), Suresh (14%), +1.361.889.aaff (9%), CyrusDaboo (9%), wonsuk (43%)
14:28:26 <tantek> but simon, why are there DDAY BIRTH DEATH properties?
14:28:35 <marcblanc> marcblanc has joined #contacts
14:28:38 <richt> tantek, I beleive that was an off-the-wall example to state that vcarddav are not throwing the kitchen sink in to vcard v4.0.
14:28:38 <simon> 1. they were already in vcard 3
14:28:47 <simon> 2. they were widely used in implementations
14:28:54 <Suresh> tlr: can you explain structural differences vcard 3 and 4?
14:29:17 <tantek> DDAY BIRTH DEATH are NOT in vcard3
14:29:20 <tantek> what implementations?
14:29:22 <simon> either 1 or 2
14:29:28 <simon> not both
14:29:33 <tantek> name / give a URL to *any* address book sw
14:29:36 <tantek> that has DDAY BIRTH DEATH
14:29:37 <simon> and I don't remember, it's in the mailing list archives
14:29:45 <tantek> sorry, citation required
14:29:47 <tantek> I'm not buying it
14:29:47 <Suresh> Peter: structure and semantics is similar in vCard 3 and 4, but we have fixed some semantics in vCard 4, sync of vcard objects between multiple devices
14:29:48 <simon> ;)
14:30:10 <Suresh> tlr: Cristina, can you elaborate on CAB?
14:30:20 <tantek> "search the archives" is an insufficient answer
14:30:25 <simon> it's been two years!
14:30:35 <tantek> if the spec authors cannot provide URLs to references, how can any of the rest of us be expected to find them?
14:30:43 <tantek> CAB (URL?)
14:31:09 <simon> i'll search afterwards and send you the ref
14:31:14 <Suresh> Cristina: The structure was developed from scratch, it revolves around individual and group, however, we have provided mapping to vCard
14:31:29 <richt> I believe the CAB spec is public, rhi
14:31:34 <richt> s/rhi/right?
14:32:04 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:32:14 <Suresh> Suresh: yes, the draft is public
14:32:54 <tantek> Suresh - could you post a URL to said public draft?
14:32:58 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:33:47 <Cristina_OMA-CAB> the link to cab 1.0 TS including the CAB format: http://member.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/COM/COM-CAB/Permanent_documents/OMA-TS-CAB_XDMS-V1_0-20100831-D.zip
14:34:23 <Suresh> see sub-clause 5.2.1.1 and 5.2.1.7 (for structure and semantics)
14:34:27 <tantek> what's in the .zip?
14:34:31 <tantek> is there a direct link to some HTML?
14:34:58 <dom> in the zip, there are 2 Word documents
14:35:12 <tantek> dom, that's a joke right? you're not being serious are you?
14:35:19 <dom> I'm afraid I am
14:35:22 <tlr> indeed
14:35:36 <marcblanc> for completeness for all to review:
14:35:39 <tantek> seriously folks, if you can't post HTML of your draft/proposal, you don't deserve to contribute to WEB standards
14:35:42 <tantek> no sympathy
14:35:42 <marcblanc> vcard4: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardrev/
14:35:55 <tantek> this is no longer the 1990s
14:35:59 <marcblanc> vcard xml mapping: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardxml/
14:36:00 <Cristina_OMA-CAB> the link to the mapping between CAB format and vcard 2.1 and 3.0: http://member.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/COM/COM-CAB/Permanent_documents/OMA-TS-CAB-V1_0-20100901-D.zip, see sect. 5.4.3
14:36:38 <Suresh> 5.4.3 for mapping to vCard
14:37:13 <tantek> correct - not on phone
14:37:27 <tantek> call day/time turned out to be very bad for me, Chris Messina (also traveling), and Joseph Smarr
14:37:48 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:37:54 <tantek> tlr what's the "PoCo question" ?
14:38:23 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:39:22 <Zakim> +nwidell
14:39:31 <Suresh> tlr: action item to set up a mailing list between the groups
14:39:53 <tantek> tlr - will yet another mailing list that everyone has to follow actually solve the problems?
14:40:15 <Suresh> tlr: action point: Cristina to circulate the final draft of OMA CAB specs
14:40:54 <Suresh> from W3C perspective we will continue discussions to see how we can resolve this issue
14:40:58 <tantek> Suresh, tlr - I request circulating a URL to HTML on the public web of the draft of the OMA CAB specs
14:41:07 <tantek> something that can be indexed/searched by web search engines
14:41:33 <Suresh> has anyone done vCard XML and CAB specs?
14:42:03 <simon> is that what you mean? vcard xml mapping: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardxml/
14:42:21 <Suresh> Cristina: not sure if everyone has looked at the liaison from OMA to W3C
14:42:51 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #contacts
14:42:54 <Suresh> we have two options: 1) W3C adopt CAB, 2) provide API to support only the common fileds across different fields
14:43:18 <Suresh> Cristina: 2) maybe more appropriate
14:43:43 <wonsuk> Wonsuk: +1 for 2)
14:43:57 <Suresh> Richard: dependency on external formats can be a problem
14:44:15 <Suresh> Bryan: all specs are open in OMA
14:45:03 <tantek> Bryan please provide URLs to the licenses which you mean by "open" in this context by OMA
14:45:10 <tantek> e.g., Creative Commons, OWFa, etc.
14:45:17 <tantek> CC0 preferably IMHO
14:45:44 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:45:58 <Suresh> +q
14:46:26 <Suresh> Cristina: the situation is still the same with vCard in terms of maturity
14:46:43 <simon> we're talking about vcard 4 here. vcard has been around for a long time
14:46:58 <Zakim> +bryan_sullivan
14:47:27 <Cristina> for vcard 3.0 and 2.1 we provide a mapping in cab
14:47:54 <Suresh> richard: extension mechanisms in vcard is good
14:48:24 <tantek> richard, why? please cite URLs to use cases.
14:48:29 <Suresh> Suresh: CAB is in XML and will let you add extensions
14:48:56 <Suresh> xxx: vCard 4 allows you to provide extensions
14:49:02 <simon> that was cyrus
14:49:12 <tlr> s/xxx:/cyrus:/
14:49:40 <marcblanc> extensions that can be registered in a managed IANA registry, available publicly, with pointers to specs.
14:49:43 <tantek> re: XML and extensions - in practice on the web, XML extensions have nearly universally been a failure
14:49:50 <tantek> e.g. death of XHTML2 etc.
14:50:06 <richt> tantek, my point explained on the call (but not minuted) was that vCard 3.0 was published a loong time ago. Then an industry organically co-ordinated to create impp extension at a later date (all in IETF) 
14:50:39 <tantek> ah, centralized extensions - ok - that makes more sense - thanks richt
14:51:00 <richt> ...so extensions could allow industries to align organically or within specific industries (e.g. browser makers). That the hypothesis of my argument.
14:51:44 <Suresh> Suresh: our position is that the second option is the most practical way forward
14:52:19 <Suresh> It is a short term solution and in long term we should aim for convergence
14:53:15 <Suresh> tlr: the questions is whether we can provide API extensions and whether CAB and vCard extensions are useful from DAP perspective
14:53:56 <tlr> say "q+" on IRC
14:54:51 <Suresh> Cristina: there are efforts to offere mapping between multiple formats, so it is only matter of putting the formats together and taking the common denominator
14:55:12 <tantek> is there a wiki for vcarddav work?
14:55:19 <tantek> or OMA work?
14:55:40 <marcblanc> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/vcarddav/trac/wiki
14:55:48 <marcblanc> (not used currently by the wg)
14:56:15 <Suresh> Suresh: de IETF folks think about the short term solution i.e. use the common fields in the DAP API
14:56:27 <Suresh> s/de/what do
14:56:27 <marcblanc> generic place for IETF wg with issue tracker, etc...
14:56:28 <marcblanc> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vcarddav/
14:56:46 <tantek> have to run
14:56:52 <tantek> thanks for the URLs marcblanc
14:56:59 <tantek> will be back on #contacts in about 30min
14:57:05 <tantek> in case anyone wants to continue chatting
14:57:08 <tantek> thanks everyone!
14:57:18 <Cristina> no wiki for OMA
14:57:34 <Suresh> Topic: Next Steps
14:57:47 <danbri> (public minutes is good / essential)
14:58:03 <Suresh> tlr: will post the minutes and action items from the meeting
14:58:41 <Suresh> marc: from IETF, we will post these minutes and discuss within IETF the next steps
14:59:07 <Zakim> -dom
14:59:08 <Zakim> - +1.361.889.aaff
14:59:08 <Zakim> -bryan_sullivan
14:59:10 <Zakim> -Thomas
14:59:10 <Zakim> -[Viagenie]
14:59:10 <Zakim> -Cristina_OMA
14:59:11 <Zakim> -alexey
14:59:12 <Zakim> -nwidell
14:59:13 <wonsuk> wonsuk has left #contacts
14:59:14 <Zakim> -richt
14:59:15 <danbri> zakim, drop danbri
14:59:17 <Suresh> tlr: will send the conclusion, thank you all for the call
14:59:18 <Zakim> -CyrusDaboo
14:59:20 <Zakim> -stpeter
14:59:22 <Zakim> danbri is being disconnected
14:59:24 <Zakim> -danbri
14:59:26 <Zakim> -PeteResnick
14:59:28 <Zakim> -wonsuk
14:59:30 <Zakim> -Suresh
14:59:34 <Zakim> -Dan?(ATT)
14:59:41 <Zakim> -DongYoungLee
14:59:42 <Zakim> Team_(contacts)14:00Z has ended
14:59:44 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.418.656.aaaa, Thomas, MarcBlanchet, SimonPerrault, stpeter, DongYoungLee, +1.425.391.aabb, bryan_sullivan, Dan?(ATT), +44.208.783.aacc, +1.760.705.aadd,
14:59:47 <Zakim> ... +44.759.510.aaee, alexey, richt, +1.361.889.aaff, Cristina_OMA, Suresh, +1.412.420.aagg, CyrusDaboo, dom, +1.217.337.aahh, PeteResnick, danbri, wonsuk, nwidell
15:01:30 <tlr> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-contacts-minutes.html tlr
15:02:52 <dom> dom has left #contacts
15:44:48 <tantek> tantek has joined #contacts
17:19:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #contacts
17:28:09 <tantek> tantek has joined #contacts