00:15:24 -Judy 00:15:25 -John_Foliot 00:15:27 -Janina 00:15:28 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended 00:15:30 Attendees were Janina, Sean, Plh, John_Foliot, Eric, Silvia, Kenny_Johar, Judy 00:19:08 plh has left #html-a11y 01:30:12 davidb has joined #html-a11y 02:04:00 Zakim has left #html-a11y 15:05:04 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 15:05:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-irc 15:05:23 gfreed has joined #html-a11y 15:05:59 zakim, who is here? 15:05:59 sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is 15:06:00 my point of view is I'll go for a non-valid docuemnt if I ever need the longdesc attribute in some page 15:06:00 On IRC I see gfreed, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ben, Marco_Ranon, kliehm, AllanJ, dboudreau, JF, eric_carlson, oedipus, davidb, janina, trackbot 15:06:11 zakim, call janina 15:06:11 sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is 15:06:43 zakim, list conferences 15:06:43 I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM, Team_(geochairs)13:30Z, SW_RDFa()10:00AM, Styl_XSL-FO-()11:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM active 15:06:45 also scheduled at this time are WAI_Team()9:30AM, SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM, T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM, WF_TF()8:00AM, VB_VBWG(CCXML)11:00AM, Team_Comm()10:30AM, GA_SVGWG()10:30AM 15:06:53 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML 15:06:53 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started 15:06:59 zakim, call janina 15:06:59 ok, janina; the call is being made 15:07:01 +Janina 15:07:34 zakim, choose a victim 15:07:34 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Eric 15:08:16 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:08:16 On the phone I see Eric, John_Foliot, kliehm, Gregory_Rosmaita, Denis_Boudreau (muted), ??P5, Janina 15:08:29 zakim, choose a victim 15:08:29 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Janina 15:08:38 zakim, choose a victim 15:08:38 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Eric 15:08:54 thanks Zakim! 15:09:14 AllanJ has joined #html-a11y 15:09:16 zakim, ??P5 is Ben_Caldwell 15:09:16 +Ben_Caldwell; got it 15:09:28 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:09:29 +Marco_Ranon 15:09:44 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 15:09:44 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:09:44 agenda: this 15:09:44 agenda+ Identify Scribe 15:09:44 agenda+ Actions Review 15:09:45 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage 15:09:48 agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup: 15:09:49 agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements 15:09:51 agenda+ Drag & Drop Discussion 15:09:53 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe 15:09:55 agenda+ be done 15:09:57 15:10:16 zakim, pick a victim 15:10:16 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Janina 15:10:28 zakim, pick a victim 15:10:28 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gregory_Rosmaita 15:10:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Scribe_List 15:10:46 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 15:10:51 scribenick: oedipus 15:11:08 TOPIC: Preliminaries 15:11:15 JS: MikeSmith will chair next 2 meetings 15:11:28 zakim, take agendum 1 15:11:28 I don't understand 'take agendum 1', oedipus 15:11:33 zakim, agendum 1 15:11:33 I don't understand 'agendum 1', oedipus 15:11:41 TOPIC: Action Items Review 15:11:48 paulc has joined #html-a11y 15:12:07 Sorry I am late, drove 560km this morning 15:12:13 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 15:13:12 ACTION-47? 15:13:12 ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-07-29 -- OPEN 15:13:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47 15:13:43 agendum 1 was just opened, kliehm 15:13:45 action-50? 15:13:45 ACTION-50 -- Janina Sajka to add some introductory text to requirement docs clarifying that these are user requirements, not necessarily UA requirements -- due 2010-07-08 -- CLOSED 15:13:45 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/50 15:13:59 +[Microsoft] 15:14:14 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc 15:14:14 +paulc; got it 15:14:31 agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina] 15:14:54 CS: Steve and I worked on draft to update the change proposal based on feedback from MJS -- came up with list of things, RS and i sent text to steve to integrate -- thought would be available today, but haven't yet seen it 15:15:36 CS: have tuesday meeting next week to review 15:16:17 CS: hope is will be able to bring to TF next thrusday and then to WG and then for review for 2 to 3 weeks by HTML WG 15:16:20 JS: good plan 15:16:33 CS: will probably be discussed in HTML WG telecon next hour 15:16:55 zakim, move to next agendum 15:16:55 agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina] 15:17:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 15:19:49 dboudreau has left #html-a11y 15:20:08 dboudreau has joined #html-a11y 15:20:11 JS: Canvas: no action; heard from Cynthia about mapping - hope to move revised rationale in this meeting next week 15:20:19 JS: drag and drop stuck due to vacations 15:21:04 JF: media -- very productive conference calls for last few weeks -- very in depth conversation of particular points -- at point where believe had req docuemtn that is complete -- please review if haven't looked at or checked recently -- think haev done our due dilligence 15:21:16 JS: still waiting for a couple of additions from JudyB 15:21:26 JF: yes, but most of intent has been succesfully captured 15:22:02 frankolivier has joined #html-a11y 15:22:23 JF: next step: proposals emerging -- action-50 is create a matrix or grid to list technical reqs as agnostically as possible -- identified key things, capture as tech req, assign priority to it to help guide development and keep discussion focused and on track 15:22:45 JF: document has rough outline in my head -- took on action-50 to get together for end of the month 15:22:57 JF: will probably get most work done when on vacation 15:23:27 JS: expectation for matrix -- view of what type of technologies are needed to satifisfy user reqs we identified 15:24:02 JS: cannot rely on exissting containers to handle synchronization -- have to support 3rd party for sign language as primary track -- very important 15:24:47 JF: asynchronous synchronization -- how to insert a 20 minute description into a 10 minute clip; processing media content is complex, but no native way for container to do that -- one of issues identified 15:25:08 JS: proofs-of-concepts based on user requirements -- some have been around for years 15:25:24 zakim, move to next agendum 15:25:24 agendum 4. "TF Recommendations Followup:" taken up [from janina] 15:25:48 zakim, close agendum 4 15:25:48 agendum 4, TF Recommendations Followup:, closed 15:25:49 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:25:50 5. Keyboard Access Requirements [from janina] 15:25:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Bugs/Bugs_Awaiting_A11yTF_Keyword_Decision 15:26:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0013.html 15:27:09 MK: list of bugs -- 41 -- others are not important enough or don't meet reqs - some can be followed up by individuals and not TF 15:27:19 MK: will have telecon next tuesday to examine remaining 21 15:27:31 JS: very good news -- thanks for helping progress that issue 15:27:47 azkim, take up agendum 4 15:27:54 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:27:54 agendum 4. "TF Recommendations Followup:" taken up [from janina] 15:28:11 JS: decision from HTML WG chairs regarding HTML WG Issue-30 (longdesc) 15:28:53 i will contribute to the formal objection... trying to see if I need to object myself or simply support someone else's 15:29:00 JS: JF posted intent to object and others have signed up -- i am composing email response -- did not see direct response to the TF/PF/WAI Consensus recs on @alt; some additional issues as well 15:29:38 JS: please keep discussion constructive -- bottom line is that have requirement that can't be satisfied -- there are implementations out there -- Oracle already indicated that it uses longdesc everytime there is a screen shot 15:29:59 JS: what may have gotten lost is requirement for a verbose descriptor without replacement 15:30:09 I have a longdesc on this party flyer - feel free to use it as a use case: http://bembelterror.de/frankfurt/bday-2007 15:30:17 JS: can do better than longdesc mechanism from HTML 4.01 but perhaps not under HTML WG timelines 15:31:15 JS: re-read WAI Consensus rec -- missing is ability to reference verbose descriptor either an extrernal file (longdesc) or if description in same doc as image can use aria-describedby 15:31:37 JS: ARIA 2.0 to do item is to make aria-describedby capable of referencing an external as well as internal resource 15:31:40 q? 15:32:01 JF: my question: is this TF going to support a formal objection? 15:32:09 bottom line, we need a mechanism allowing to come up with a structured description for a complex image. Can we consider working on something else or should we fight for @longdesc? 15:33:11 JF: i've already personally committed to launching formal objection -- intend to follow through on this as individual -- non-W3C communication from a chair that dismissively comments on capacities and capabilities of HTML A11y TF -- that's another issue for another space, but i will formally object 15:33:42 JF: if HTML A11y TF wants to persue further, will work with TF members on formal objection, but if my tack is different from TF's will file as individual 15:33:50 JF: what should be the next step? 15:34:28 PC: understand why TF takes position -- if 1 chair has to present formal objection to director, much better if supporters are clearly identified -- encourage formal objection to list individuals and orgs that support it 15:35:01 Paul does this mean that without a support from browser vendors, the formal objection wouldn't hold much chance of being heard? 15:35:16 JS: on process of TF -- part of HTML WG and part of PFWG -- may be better for WAI iteself to raise objection -- still on tabel -- more i look at it, more concerned i am -- very primary req 15:35:58 JS: possible that there will be formal objection from inside WAI -- possibly PF -- reference guidance this TF provided -- approx 76% approval via WBS 15:36:35 JS: people did what should do in HTML40 and WCAG20 and we don't have a next step without longdesc 15:37:10 JF: concern: if use longdesc in fully conforming HTML5 doc only problem is can't validate -- works in browsers with native longdesc support -- can get longdesc using Opera and FireFox 15:37:36 JF: now have 2 of four/five major browsers provide native support for longdesc; will always be rendered by browsers that support HTML4 15:37:47 JF: chairs justifications completely missed the point 15:38:04 JF: comments about bad meta data and abuse of longdesc a canard 15:38:09 q? 15:38:13 q? 15:38:42 CS: can we negotiate? don't want to spend political capital on longdesc 15:38:52 JS: 2 statements -- are we still open to negotiation 15:40:33 PC: w3c proccess should attempt to find solution that causes least amount of dissent; chairs chose what felt caused least amount of dissent -- best way to indicate we were wrong is to file formal objection which puts ball back in chairs' court -- can go back, look at formal objection to see if changes opinion -- other option is acknowledge formal objection and carry forward when talk to director coming OUT of last call -- going to LC is WG decision -- as c 15:40:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html 15:40:54 PC: might request expidited action from director -- haven't yet discussed with HTML WG co-chairs 15:41:59 q? 15:42:44 Q 15:42:45 GJR: not about specific elements but about leaving use case/need for verbose descriptors referenceable externally or internally 15:43:25 s/internally/internaly not satisfied/ 15:43:33 JF: when next heartbeat req? 15:44:12 PC: chairs chose to attempt to get WDs published in june so could have another pub cycle before AC/TPAC meeting in november 2010 in lyons -- based only on chairs' discussion -- not consensus from WG 15:44:45 JF: thanks -- helps logistically 15:45:29 JS: bottom line: several strands of discontent -- bottom line is missing a key requirement (verbose descriptor) so question is what to tell those using longdesc and supporting longdesc -- anticipate a formal objection if not a couple of them 15:45:38 no we're not done 15:45:40 JS: not done discussing by any means 15:46:27 PC: as the co-chair who attends these meetings i will bring this forward -- best way to deal with TF-WG tension is to confront directly -- will carry message back to samR and MJS -- will also convey to them what i said with chair's hat on 15:46:36 JS: will be joining WG call at top of hour 15:47:00 PC: very possible that monday meeting agenda could be added to by Janina or Judy 15:47:15 JS: appreciate PC's dedication to attending TF meetings 15:47:30 PC: discussion on monday would be best way to discuss dissent 15:47:48 JS: wanted to let others know that this is being addressed at the proper levels using the proper communications channels 15:47:53 +??P24 15:47:56 PC: agree with transparency 15:48:59 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:49:43 PC: chairs thread that dealt with this had 5 people on it -- me, SamR, MJS, PhL, and mikeTMsmith -- by copying mike thought could get TF input, but i see your point -- might have been better to distribute this more widely 15:50:07 JS: MikeSmith is co-facillitator -- may not have been on his radar 15:50:14 PC: JS your comment has merit 15:50:30 zakim, +??P24 is Steve_Faulkner 15:50:30 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P24' 15:50:38 zakim, ??P24 is Steve_Faulkner 15:50:38 +Steve_Faulkner; got it 15:50:49 [steve faulkner joins] 15:52:02 SF: from report got back from meeting with cynthia and rich and chairs -- questions about whether we missed some mappings (fixed through addition) second part is developing reasoning behind changes in new text for spec 15:52:51 SF: in process of collating that -- will be adding to ChangeProposal wiki page providing additional detail we were asked for - should be available next week -- want to check a few things with RichS who is on vacation 15:53:16 SF: will be ready for review before next week's TF telecon 15:53:32 CS: will we have a tuesday meeting? 15:53:37 SF: yes 15:53:54 SF: will send out agenda for tuesday with link to updated docs a.s.a.p. 15:53:59 JS: next week is week to get done 15:54:21 SF: question: CS will you be on HTML WG call to pass message on? 15:54:35 CS: Paul and i and Janina will be on WG call, so is covered 15:54:50 PC: SF you are on vacation, so one of us can communicate status to WG 15:55:33 FIVE MINUTE WARNING 15:56:09 I guess some of us will discuss it further outside this meeting 15:56:24 CS: objection to longdesc more vociferous in this call than previous 15:56:50 JS: biggest problem is that there isn't a substitute/replacement mechanism for providing verbose descriptors 15:57:13 JS: statistics may be skewed by longdesc maintained by corps and orgs behind a firewall 15:57:50 JS: this may not be the top priority but it is a fundamental priority 15:58:18 CS: worried about perceptions of us reacting to this first rejection -- may come off as complianers 15:58:23 there are much more important issues to be discussed than longdesc but it becomes a priority if time is of the essence to react... 15:58:38 ISSUE-109: change ARIA section title and add extra text about use of ARIA - Straw Poll for Objections 15:58:38 Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-109 failed, please let sysreq know about it 15:58:39 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-109-objection-poll/ 15:58:40 JF: doesn't lessen it -- not religious on how to achieve, but need to achieve well-described functionality 15:59:21 JS: short inline (alternative) text and more verbose description (external or internal, external can be pulled into doc to make internal) 15:59:48 q 16:00:08 CS: not saying don't due, but there is a cost attached 16:00:13 JF: cost attached to not doing as well 16:00:54 -[Microsoft] 16:01:18 JS: until have replacement, need to keep longdesc 16:01:52 SF: please answer poll by 19 August 2010 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-109-objection-poll/ -- doesn't go to heart of issue and contains some irrelevancies 16:02:20 JS: every TF member is an HTML WG member, so please fill out survey cited by SteveF above 16:03:10 -Eric 16:03:29 thanks all, take care 16:03:33 -kliehm 16:03:35 -Steve_Faulkner 16:03:37 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:03:37 -Janina 16:03:38 -Gregory_Rosmaita 16:03:38 -Marco_Ranon 16:03:38 AllanJ has left #html-a11y 16:03:40 -John_Foliot 16:03:42 janina has left #html-a11y 16:03:42 gfreed has left #html-a11y 16:03:44 -Ben_Caldwell 16:03:47 -Denis_Boudreau 16:03:48 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended 16:03:50 Attendees were Eric, John_Foliot, kliehm, Gregory_Rosmaita, Denis_Boudreau, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Marco_Ranon, paulc, Steve_Faulkner 16:03:52 zakim, please part 16:03:53 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:04:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:04:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:05:05 present+ Jim_Allan_(IRC_only) 16:05:26 regrets: Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfieffer,Kenny_Johar 16:05:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:08:26 meeting: HTML A11y Task Force Weekly Teleconference 16:08:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:09:38 meeting+ HTML A11y Task Force Weekly Teleconference 16:09:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:14:30 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0026.html 16:14:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:16:26 regrets+ Leif_Halvard_Silli 16:16:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:17:45 regrets+ Aurélien_Levy 16:17:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/12-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 16:37:04 I see no action items