IRC log of CSS on 2010-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:35:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:35:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-CSS-irc
15:35:17 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:35:17 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
15:35:22 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:38 [arronei]
arronei has joined #CSS
15:52:44 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:52:49 [Zakim]
+dsinger
15:53:12 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
15:54:04 [dsinger]
Zakim, who is here?
15:54:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger
15:54:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dsinger, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_bbl, MoZ, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie, Peter,
15:54:07 [Zakim]
... lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
15:54:18 [dsinger]
zakim, mute dsinger
15:54:18 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:55:18 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
15:55:21 [Zakim]
-dsinger
15:55:22 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:55:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger
15:55:43 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:45 [dethbakin]
dethbakin has joined #css
15:55:50 [Zakim]
+dsinger
15:56:07 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
15:56:34 [dsinger]
zakim, who is here?
15:56:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
15:56:38 [Zakim]
... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
15:59:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.650.aaaa
15:59:22 [dethbakin]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:22 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
15:59:22 [dsinger]
zakim, mute dsinger
15:59:23 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
15:59:53 [Zakim]
+glazou
16:00:07 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:00:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger (muted), dethbakin, glazou
16:00:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
16:00:13 [Zakim]
... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
16:00:31 [glazou]
hi dsinger
16:00:37 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:39 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:01:16 [Zakim]
+plinss_
16:01:29 [Zakim]
+??P20
16:02:15 [plinss]
zakim, ?P20 is fantasai
16:02:15 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P20'
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
16:02:30 [dsinger]
Zakim, ??p20 is fantasai
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:03:24 [shepazu]
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16:03:34 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aabb
16:03:43 [glazou]
dsinger: trying to make us avoid next ftf ?-)
16:03:45 [Zakim]
+sylvaing
16:03:53 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #css
16:05:43 [glazou]
dsinger: sun for the 22nd, probability 2/5
16:06:55 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:08:05 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:07 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: dbaron
16:08:28 [dbaron]
Zakim, +47 is howcome
16:08:28 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:08:29 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:08:44 [dbaron]
Topic: face-to-face meeting
16:08:49 [dbaron]
howcome: any questions about f2f?
16:08:57 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:09:29 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:09:49 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:10:31 [dbaron]
SteveZ: Wanted to add one thing to agenda; will send email.
16:10:34 [dbaron]
Topic: test suite
16:10:49 [dbaron]
fantasai: Arron and I went through issues list and identified which issues need tests.
16:10:59 [dbaron]
fantasai: want to do beta3 at end of week
16:11:33 [howcome]
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16:11:34 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:11:39 [dbaron]
Topic: CSS 2.1 issue 185
16:11:43 [JohnJansen]
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16:11:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: Please try to get in fixes by the end of the week
16:11:48 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-185
16:12:45 [dbaron]
I had a proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0178.html
16:12:47 [sylvaing]
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16:12:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: The mailing list also brought up the question of negative-height floats
16:13:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: I do prefer the idea that zero-height floats don't push line boxes, because it's easier to think about the range we're dealing with
16:15:24 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #css
16:16:48 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
16:16:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: And negative height floats would also be excluded because they can't satisfy both c and d at the same time
16:16:59 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:17:04 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:17:04 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:17:16 [Zakim]
-dsinger
16:17:39 [dbaron]
ok, so maybe s/is a vertical position/exists a point/ and add Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative height do not move line boxes.
16:17:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: I would be okay with this if there was a note saying that zero-height floats don't affect line boxes (and maybe explain why that's the case wrt wording in the text)
16:18:31 [ChrisL]
maybe change "when there is" to "when there exists" and
16:18:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: Could we change "not above" to "below or at"? I think that would help
16:18:48 [ChrisL]
that is to "that satisfies all of these four conditions
16:19:55 [fantasai]
Bert: So this means the zero or negative height float won't affect line boxes next to it
16:20:05 [fantasai]
Bert: but if it has clear, it still can affect layout around it
16:20:13 [fantasai]
Bert: What about floats next to floats, are those rules clear?
16:20:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think they're clear, but it might be worth rereading
16:20:56 [fantasai]
Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative
16:20:56 [fantasai]
height do not move line boxes.
16:21:01 [fantasai]
oops
16:21:07 [fantasai]
In other words, we could add a sentence after (maybe immediately
16:21:07 [fantasai]
after, maybe a little later): # However, line boxes created next to the float are shortened to # make room for the margin box of the float.
16:21:10 [fantasai]
that says something like: | A line box is next to a float when there exists a vertical position | that satisfies all of these four conditions: | (a) at or below the top of the line box, (b) at or above the | bottom of the line box, (c) below the top margin edge of the | float, and (d) above the bottom margin edge of the float. | Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative
16:21:16 [fantasai]
| heght do not m ove line boxes.
16:21:18 [fantasai]
....
16:21:49 [fantasai]
Arron: I have a testcase for zero-height floats in the middle of the line box.
16:21:59 [fantasai]
...
16:22:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: Last I checked neither Opera nor Webkit handle positive height floats in the middle of the line anyway
16:23:11 [dbaron]
maybe Opera is ok; my memory is a little fuzzy
16:24:01 [fantasai]
dbaron and Arron discuss the testcase
16:25:50 [arronei]
http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/float-zero-height.htm
16:26:23 [fantasai]
http://pastebin.mozilla.org/766057
16:27:49 [gsnedders]
Opera indeed doesn't handle it
16:29:59 [fantasai]
Peter: Any other comments on the proposal?
16:30:19 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I'm hearing disagreement on which implementations need to change, but everyone seems to like the wording.
16:30:32 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted as modified above
16:31:40 [fantasai]
Peter: CSS2.1 Issue 118
16:31:43 [plinss]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
16:33:06 [glazou]
+1
16:33:42 [fantasai]
Steve: The existing text makes a reference to centering, but it's not clear what it centers or what it means.
16:33:56 [fantasai]
Steve: The text I suggested clarifies that, and Bert confirms that's what it means
16:34:35 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
16:34:35 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
16:34:45 [fantasai]
Bert: I will try to avoid the word "centering"; your text describes what actually should be done.
16:35:14 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
16:35:14 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
16:36:21 [fantasai]
WG votes to resolve on this now and protest Bert's edits afterwards if necessary
16:36:37 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted with Steve's modifications as to be edited in by Bert
16:37:41 [plinss]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-144
16:39:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: Given the new model for text decoration that we haven't implemented yet, I would follow Opera's lead on question one
16:40:34 [fantasai]
arronei: I'm running the tests and everyone shows the underline
16:40:45 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Is there a use case for showing the nderline under invisible text?
16:40:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: No, it's just something that falls out of the previous model.
16:41:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: It doesn't make much sense to show the underline if you're trying to hide something.
16:41:59 [glazou]
Gecko 2.0 underlines once the whole thing
16:42:20 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Then perhaps we should change it to be more useful, not as likely to break things.
16:42:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: But if we don't have implementations, that will hold back PR.
16:42:40 [fantasai]
Steve: We could go with "it's undefined".
16:43:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we're already at the place where most implementations disagree with the spec on text-decoration, and we're planning to fix it but we haven't gotten around to it yet
16:43:29 [fantasai]
Steve: So you're going to have to change it to match the current 2.1 text anyway
16:43:42 [fantasai]
Steve: If that's true, fine, we'll just make it another piece of the model change.
16:44:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: we could change it and mark it at-risk
16:45:32 [fantasai]
Seem to have agreement that if the text isn't there, the underline shouldn't be either.
16:46:37 [fantasai]
Bert: I would expect to see the blue line, but not the red one in that email
16:49:05 [fantasai]
fantasai summarizes Appendix E's contents
16:49:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you want the underline visible but not the text, you can make the text transparent.
16:51:28 [fantasai]
Bert and Peter discuss the underlining model -- specifically that the underline is continuous through the child elements, and if they have underlines they are additional (may paint over)
16:51:53 [fantasai]
Steve: I'm confused about what the current model is.
16:52:03 [fantasai]
Steve: There's two ways of thinking about it. One is, the property draws an underline
16:52:22 [fantasai]
Steve: The other way is that it turns on a mode so that each glyph draws its own piece of the underline
16:52:31 [fantasai]
Steve: I thought that the latter model is what the new one is doing
16:54:41 [fantasai]
fantasai explains the current model
16:56:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: The question is now whether the underline is drawn with the color *and* visibility of the underlining element, or it uses the visibility of the element with the text being underline
16:56:08 [fantasai]
dd
16:56:43 [fantasai]
Steve: Suppose that you're animating the text to disappear, so the underline is there. What should happen at the end of the animation?
16:56:51 [fantasai]
Steve: Does the underline now jump to the text around it?
16:57:21 [fantasai]
Bert: The underline's position can be adapted to the child elements; it doesn't have to but it may.
16:57:38 [fantasai]
(but it has to be a single line per linebox)
17:00:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: Consider also if I set text-decoration on a <div> with block-level children
17:01:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you set visibility hidden on one of them, would it disappear the text but not the underlining?
17:03:02 [fantasai]
Arron: Older versions of IE don't draw the underline, but they're just mostly broken
17:03:17 [glazou]
unicorn underlines
17:03:25 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
17:03:26 [fantasai]
Over time
17:03:29 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:03:32 [Zakim]
-arronei
17:03:34 [Zakim]
-dethbakin
17:03:34 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:03:35 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:03:36 [Zakim]
-plinss_
17:03:39 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:03:41 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:03:42 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:03:46 [Zakim]
-howcome
17:03:51 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
17:08:51 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:08:55 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:08:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger, +1.617.650.aaaa, dethbakin, glazou, arronei, plinss_, David_Baron, fantasai, +47.21.65.aabb, sylvaing, SteveZ, howcome, Bert, ChrisL
18:06:57 [dsinger]
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19:52:14 [tabatkins]
fantasai: You interested in staying in the Oslo apartment an extra day with dbaron and tantek?
20:11:48 [fantasai]
tabatkins: yes
20:12:15 [tabatkins]
k, I'll confirm with the rental dude.
20:21:36 [dbaron]
ooh, fantasai is around
20:21:57 [dbaron]
(do we know when the other people staying in the Apartment are leaving?)