IRC log of ua on 2010-07-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:41:15 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #ua

16:41:15 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-ua-irc

16:41:17 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:41:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #ua

16:41:19 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG

16:41:19 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes

16:41:20 [trackbot]

Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

16:41:20 [trackbot]

Date: 29 July 2010

16:41:31 [AllanJ]

chair: KellyFord

16:41:47 [AllanJ]

Regrets: SimonH

16:42:37 [AllanJ]

Agenda+ Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/

16:42:39 [AllanJ]

Agenda+ Action Item Review

16:42:40 [AllanJ]

Agenda+ Writing meeting logistics, etc.

16:42:42 [AllanJ]

Agenda+ Tracking UAAG implementations

16:59:07 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started

16:59:14 [Zakim]

+ +1.512.206.aaaa

17:00:04 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:00:18 [kford]

kford has joined #ua

17:00:36 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

17:01:13 [kford]

zakim, microsoft is kford

17:01:13 [Zakim]

+kford; got it

17:01:19 [sharper]

sharper has joined #ua

17:01:46 [sharper]

zakim, code?

17:01:46 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper

17:02:03 [Greg]

Greg has joined #ua

17:02:11 [jeanne]

jeanne has joined #ua

17:02:24 [Zakim]

+??P6

17:02:27 [sharper]

zakim, ??P6 is sharper

17:02:27 [Zakim]

+sharper; got it

17:03:05 [Zakim]

+Greg

17:05:45 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.325.aabb

17:06:23 [KimPatch]

KimPatch has joined #ua

17:07:23 [kford]

zakim, agenda?

17:07:23 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:

17:07:25 [Zakim]

1. Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/ [from AllanJ]

17:07:26 [Zakim]

2. Action Item Review [from AllanJ]

17:07:28 [Zakim]

3. Writing meeting logistics, etc. [from AllanJ]

17:07:30 [Zakim]

4. Tracking UAAG implementations [from AllanJ]

17:08:17 [AllanJ]

scribe: Allanj

17:08:36 [AllanJ]

zakim, close item 1

17:08:36 [Zakim]

agendum 1, Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/, closed

17:08:38 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:08:39 [Zakim]

2. Action Item Review [from AllanJ]

17:08:52 [AllanJ]

zakim, next item

17:08:52 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from AllanJ]

17:09:29 [Greg]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open?sort=owner

17:10:05 [AllanJ]

zakim, mute me

17:10:05 [Zakim]

sorry, AllanJ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

17:10:21 [AllanJ]

zakim, aaaa is me

17:10:21 [Zakim]

+AllanJ; got it

17:10:28 [AllanJ]

zakim, mute me

17:10:28 [Zakim]

AllanJ should now be muted

17:12:38 [AllanJ]

zakim, aabb is really KimPatch

17:12:38 [Zakim]

+KimPatch; got it

17:12:59 [AllanJ]

zakim, close item 2

17:12:59 [Zakim]

agendum 2, Action Item Review, closed

17:13:00 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:13:02 [Zakim]

3. Writing meeting logistics, etc. [from AllanJ]

17:13:07 [AllanJ]

zakim open next

17:13:17 [AllanJ]

zakim, open next

17:13:17 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Writing meeting logistics, etc." taken up [from AllanJ]

17:13:54 [AllanJ]

kf: details at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0024.html

17:14:14 [AllanJ]

...will have IRC and phone connection

17:14:24 [AllanJ]

...working on video conference

17:14:52 [AllanJ]

times 12pm - 6pm Boston

17:14:54 [AllanJ]

5pm - 11pm London

17:14:55 [AllanJ]

9am - 3pm Seattle

17:15:19 [AllanJ]

zakim, unmute me

17:15:19 [Zakim]

AllanJ should no longer be muted

17:19:08 [AllanJ]

discussion of F2F in Lyon, France

17:19:52 [AllanJ]

Simon not able to attend

17:20:15 [AllanJ]

discuss further next week.

17:20:48 [AllanJ]

Assets Conference in Orlando conflicts (Simon will be there)

17:23:34 [sharper]

http://www.sigaccess.org/assets10/

17:25:35 [Zakim]

-Jeanne

17:26:06 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:26:48 [AllanJ]

zakim, close item 3

17:26:48 [Zakim]

agendum 3, Writing meeting logistics, etc., closed

17:26:49 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

17:26:50 [Zakim]

4. Tracking UAAG implementations [from AllanJ]

17:27:02 [AllanJ]

zakim, next item

17:27:02 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Tracking UAAG implementations" taken up [from AllanJ]

17:28:58 [AllanJ]

implementations are in google docs

17:34:03 [AllanJ]

gl: do we want to create an issue to require the UA to allow the user to hide images

17:34:15 [AllanJ]

sh: who is it useful for

17:34:54 [AllanJ]

... we had 3 reasons

17:35:14 [AllanJ]

...1. RSI for navigating quickly

17:35:40 [AllanJ]

...2. cognitive issues

17:36:19 [AllanJ]

...3. screen magnification

17:36:37 [AllanJ]

gl: ADD content in complex images may be distracting

17:37:14 [AllanJ]

...for RSI images may take up too much room, reduce images to make scrolling through lots of content easier

17:37:33 [AllanJ]

...same for screen magnification

17:38:28 [Greg]

If a user agent hides an image but still reserves the same space it would take up, simply filling it with white space and alt text, then we don't get the benefits we were looking for for users with RSI (who sill have to scroll over lots of space) and magnifiers (the same).

17:39:05 [Greg]

Thus the ability to hide images *by itself* is not good enough, but we may have enough in combination with other existing SC about reflowing, etc.

17:39:45 [AllanJ]

kf: what would SC say?

17:40:45 [Greg]

Three related abilities: 1. show/hide images; 2. show/hide alt text for images (with or without the image); 3. yes or no to making alt text take up the room originally taken up by the image.

17:40:50 [AllanJ]

kf: which items to render by default

17:41:14 [AllanJ]

this would be 3.1.2 plus Jeanne's action

17:43:20 [AllanJ]

gl: where do we clarify that this is different from images being hidden (replaced by alt, or supplemented with alt/title)

17:45:29 [AllanJ]

kf: item 3 - should reflow the document to accommodate the alt.

17:46:28 [AllanJ]

kp: these are different situations. need the alt to take up the same amount of space as the image so the flow remains the same when collaborating

17:46:40 [Zakim]

-Jeanne

17:47:25 [AllanJ]

kf: 3.1.2 user decides which alternative to be shown by default.

17:48:11 [AllanJ]

gl: it does allow the user to say what not to show. won't allow the UA to hide images

17:48:23 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:48:40 [AllanJ]

...could have a CSS to use generated text to place 'alt' text after or below the image

17:49:04 [AllanJ]

...want the user to be able to hide images.

17:49:31 [AllanJ]

kf: also have 3.1.3 that gets at same area

17:49:48 [AllanJ]

gl: this is not global, it is a per image case

17:50:33 [AllanJ]

kf: 3.1.4 fall back if default not available.

17:50:48 [AllanJ]

...what is end objective

17:51:40 [AllanJ]

kf:user gets to pick and choose what to render, what to render as alternative, mix and match multiple alternatives simultaneously

17:53:00 [AllanJ]

gl: rendering simultaneous primary and alternative content should be AAA

17:53:14 [AllanJ]

...remove simultaneous, find better word

17:54:40 [AllanJ]

gl: show and hide primary content, show hide first tier alternative content, toggle reserve space of primary content for rendering of alternative content

17:55:13 [AllanJ]

gl: 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 would be independent. my proposal would replace 3.1.2

17:56:31 [AllanJ]

kf: UA allows user to hide or show default content

17:57:03 [AllanJ]

...what default content?

17:58:01 [AllanJ]

ja: only content with alternatives - img, object, etc.

17:58:10 [AllanJ]

gl: is title an alternative

17:58:37 [AllanJ]

...anything that is always there (src) don't need to notify user.

17:59:11 [Zakim]

-sharper

18:03:39 [Greg]

There are five meaningful permutations:

18:03:41 [Greg]

a) Show image + hide alt = default, best for most people most of the time

18:03:43 [Greg]

b) Show image + show alt = rare

18:03:45 [Greg]

c) Hide image + hide alt =

18:03:47 [Greg]

d) Hide image + show alt + take up full space

18:03:49 [Greg]

e) Hide image + show alt + compress space = best for RSI and magnification

18:06:47 [AllanJ]

discussion of alt options

18:13:25 [AllanJ]

topic: 3.4.1

18:14:04 [AllanJ]

kf: this is exactly what a screen reader does.

18:14:21 [AllanJ]

gl: could be done with script, extension, or css

18:15:00 [Greg]

(Not CSS, as the CSS can't selectively do it only when needed.)

18:27:52 [AllanJ]

ja: problem with 3.4.1 and word 'required', 'alt' is the only required alternative.

18:28:51 [Greg]

Questioning what 3.4.1 gives us beyond what we already get from 3.4.

18:30:00 [Zakim]

-Greg

18:30:04 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:30:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-ua-minutes.html AllanJ

18:30:31 [AllanJ]

regrets -SimonH

18:30:44 [Zakim]

-kford

18:30:45 [Zakim]

-KimPatch

18:30:46 [Zakim]

-AllanJ

18:31:09 [AllanJ]

zakim, please part

18:31:09 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, kford, sharper, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, AllanJ, KimPatch

18:31:09 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

18:31:29 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:31:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-ua-minutes.html AllanJ

18:31:50 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, please part

18:31:50 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items