15:52:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:52:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-irc
15:52:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:52:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:52:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:52:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:19 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:52:22 <trackbot> Date: 13 July 2010
15:52:29 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jul/0002.html
15:52:34 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:54:03 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #RDB2RDF
15:55:59 <alexdeleon> alexdeleon has joined #RDB2RDF
15:56:59 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:57:06 <Zakim> + +1.562.249.aaaa
15:57:26 <lima> lima has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:53 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
15:58:01 <mhausenblas> aabb is mhausenblas 
15:58:10 <amalhotr> amalhotr has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:24 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:42 <boris> boris has joined #RDB2RDF
15:58:50 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:58:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.562.249.aaaa, +3539149aabb
15:58:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see boris, Souri, amalhotr, lima, alexdeleon, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, Marcelo, hhalpin, soeren, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, dmiles_afk, trackbot, ericP
15:59:01 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is me
15:59:01 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
15:59:36 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is Marcelo 
15:59:36 <Zakim> +Marcelo; got it
15:59:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
16:00:06 <amalhotr> zakim, aacc is Ashok
16:00:06 <Zakim> +Ashok; got it
16:00:27 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:00:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:00:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Marcelo, mhausenblas, [IPcaller], Ashok
16:00:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see boris, Souri, amalhotr, lima, alexdeleon, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, Marcelo, hhalpin, soeren, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, dmiles_afk, trackbot, ericP
16:00:34 <juansequeda> ok, so I was a
16:00:47 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:47 <Zakim> +Kingsley_Idehen
16:00:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:01:08 <juansequeda> Zakim, IPcaller.a is me
16:01:08 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:01:12 <MacTed> Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software
16:01:12 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
16:01:18 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:18 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:18 <lima> I guessed I was IPCaller
16:01:20 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, IPcaller is lima 
16:01:31 <Zakim> +lima; got it
16:01:33 <Zakim> + +49.322.222.0.aadd
16:01:46 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aadd is soeren 
16:01:46 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
16:01:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Marcelo, mhausenblas, lima, Ashok, MacTed (muted), juansequeda, soeren
16:01:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Seema, boris, Souri, amalhotr, lima, alexdeleon, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, Marcelo, hhalpin, soeren, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, dmiles_afk, trackbot, ericP
16:02:07 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Nuno
16:02:21 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
16:02:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaee is Seema 
16:02:34 <Zakim> +Seema; got it
16:02:43 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaff
16:02:48 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:51 <LeeF> zakim, aaff is me
16:02:51 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
16:03:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
16:03:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose soeren
16:03:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, boris is with me
16:03:28 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:03:44 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:49 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with me
16:03:49 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:03:57 <mhausenblas> scribenick: cygri 
16:04:05 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jul/0002.html
16:04:10 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
16:04:46 <cygri> mhausenblas: We have two new members
16:04:46 <mhausenblas> Nan Ma UTC, China Electronics Standardization Institute
16:05:10 <mhausenblas> Nophadol Jekjantuk from University of Aberdeen
16:05:42 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see
16:05:42 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/29-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:05:48 <soeren> +1
16:06:12 <cygri> RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of last meeting
16:06:27 <cygri> mhausenblas: Reminder for the scribe, please send out minutes ASAP after the call
16:06:33 <cygri> Topic: Action items review
16:06:38 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:06:50 <mhausenblas> ACTION-63?
16:06:50 <trackbot> ACTION-63 -- Michael Hausenblas to incorporate Orri's input re datatypes into UCR doc -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:06:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/63
16:07:05 <cygri> mhausenblas: ACTION-63 continues
16:07:22 <cygri> ACTION-64?
16:07:22 <trackbot> ACTION-64 -- Harry Halpin to re-do scribelist to accurately reflect working group composition -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:07:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/64
16:07:29 <mhausenblas> ACTION-64?
16:07:29 <trackbot> ACTION-64 -- Harry Halpin to re-do scribelist to accurately reflect working group composition -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:07:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/64
16:07:53 <cygri> mhausenblas: we assume it continues
16:07:56 <cygri> ACTION-66?
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Richard Cyganiak to document issues on the SQL-based approach due July 8 -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:07:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/66
16:08:10 <cygri> cygri: continues
16:08:32 <cygri> ... i'll do it shortly
16:08:35 <cygri> ACTION-67?
16:08:35 <trackbot> ACTION-67 -- Souripriya Das to write first draft of SQL-based approach due July 22 -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:08:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/67
16:09:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:09:13 <cygri> Souri: will likely take to the 29th ... continues
16:09:18 <hhalpin> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hhalpin
16:09:18 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:09:36 <cygri> ACTION-68
16:09:41 <cygri> ACTION-68?
16:09:41 <trackbot> ACTION-68 -- Juan Sequeda to write note on Ways to Leverage Ontologies due July 8 -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:09:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/68
16:09:43 <hhalpin> also, will update scribelist after this meeting based on who has attended and given explicit regrets.
16:09:54 <cygri> juansequeda: continues ... should be able to do it by next week
16:09:56 <cygri> ACTION-69?
16:09:56 <trackbot> ACTION-69 -- Daniel Daniel Miranker to work on UC&R on OLAP application -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
16:09:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/69
16:10:20 <cygri> juansequeda: i'll nag him ... continues
16:10:35 <cygri> Topic: Telecons in July and August
16:10:37 <mhausenblas> http://doodle.com/u6qg5z7gmfhc2zak
16:10:50 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:10:50 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:10:52 <Zakim> +EricP
16:10:55 <cygri> mhausenblas: please all put availability in the doodle poll
16:11:10 <hhalpin> +1 mhausenblas
16:11:27 <hhalpin> However, given the amount of work, we need to keep going if possible :)
16:11:41 <cygri> ... we should have the calls, unless there is no one at all available
16:13:03 <cygri> mhausenblas: Looks like there are 4+ people for all dates, so I suggest to have all the calls
16:13:43 <cygri> Topic: Two alternative mapping languages
16:14:02 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Database-Instance-Only_and_Database-Instances-and-Schema_Mapping
16:14:16 <cygri> Marcelo: For the last weeks, juansequeda and me were thinking about mapping languages
16:14:29 <cygri> ... we have concluded that there are two alternatives
16:15:15 <cygri> ... (explaining the example database)
16:15:34 <cygri> ... alternative 1: Database-Instance-Only Mapping
16:15:46 <cygri> ... we just create triples, but no ontology or RDFS/OWL predicates
16:16:12 <cygri> ... the p in the triple is of course always a property but we don't say explicitly
16:16:27 <cygri> ... we use datalog in the document
16:16:52 <hhalpin> wonders about conversion of datalog to RIF...does anyone know about that? I would assume it's trivially covered, but we might want to ask Michael Kifer from the RIF WG.
16:16:58 <Zakim> + +1.512.471.aagg
16:17:16 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aagg is Dan
16:17:16 <Zakim> +Dan; got it
16:17:22 <cygri> ... (walks us through the examples, Case 1-3)
16:18:29 <Dan> Dan has joined #RDB2RDF
16:18:31 <hhalpin> Could just concat IRI with "name",..but with "foaf:name" maybe coming from a string look-up of "name" from say some web service that matches strings to popular URIs, i.e. Sindice.
16:20:14 <cygri> ... (there is an assumption that a user writes the rules)
16:23:25 <cygri> ... so for each case there are three things: first a template; second an example rule that a mapping author might write (for the example db); the third is example output after processing
16:23:37 <cygri> ... second alternative: Database-Instances-and-Schema Mapping
16:24:00 <cygri> ... we also want to capture foreign keys etc in RDFS/OWL
16:24:38 <cygri> ... we have some predicates that represent the relational schema: Rel, Attr, PK, FK
16:26:06 <cygri> ... "Ontology Predicates" section has the desired deductions
16:27:01 <Zakim> -soeren
16:27:02 <Souri> q+
16:27:17 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:27:31 <cygri> Souri: I have a comment on BinRel
16:27:31 <Zakim> +soeren
16:27:39 <cygri> ... not sure wether it's needed
16:27:50 <cygri> ... you could have a table with five FKs in one tuple
16:28:07 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:28:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:28:11 <cygri> ... what's special about BinRel?
16:28:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:28:37 <cygri> Marcelo: Nothing special, really. If you want to compute BinRel, fine; but don't have to
16:29:14 <cygri> ... The language is expressive enough to map from the relational predicates to whatever you want
16:30:14 <mhausenblas> q?
16:30:15 <cygri> Souri: We may not want want to treat this BinRel case any special. Could just handle it as a normal rel with two FKs
16:30:41 <cygri> Marcelo: Yes we could change the ontology definitions if that's not wantd
16:30:55 <cygri> ... (back to presentation)
16:31:34 <cygri> ... Value(...) predicate decomposes the relations into "atomics", see example
16:39:10 <cygri> ... (reading aloud all the rules)
16:41:26 <cygri> ... what's nice about this language: you can directly generate RDF triples, also for the RDFS/OWL predicates
16:41:27 <Souri> q+
16:41:47 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:41:53 <cygri> mhausenblas: We need time to digest this, more discussion next week
16:42:09 <cygri> Souri: nice to see this language in this form
16:42:15 <Ashok> q+
16:42:19 <cygri> ... what about composite keys?
16:42:21 <mhausenblas> q?
16:42:41 <cygri> ... what we did, we used the *name* of the multi-column key as the basis of the property
16:42:58 <cygri> Marcelo: yes right, we just skipped that here
16:43:02 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok
16:43:46 <cygri> Ashok: How would I execute this? Would I translate the right hand to SQL?
16:43:50 <cygri> Marcelo: Yes
16:44:05 <cygri> Ashok: Why not just have the SQL on the right hand? Why a different syntax?
16:44:16 <cygri> Marcelo: That's a tough question!
16:44:37 <mhausenblas> q+
16:44:44 <cygri> ... There's less overhead in our syntax, and it's close to RIF
16:44:52 <cygri> ... Easy to translate between datalog, RIF, SQL etc
16:44:54 <cygri> q+
16:45:08 <cygri> ... This is just for the sake of semantics -- datalog has well-defined semantics
16:45:43 <cygri> (last comment was juansequeda)
16:46:04 <Zakim> -hhalpin
16:46:06 <cygri> Marcelo: This is what people who do data integration use
16:46:10 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:46:14 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/rifSimpleMapping/
16:46:30 <cygri> mhausenblas: Eric has put together a proposal based on RIF, see this link
16:46:39 <juansequeda> Are you taking about this? http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Direct_Mapping_in_RIF
16:46:42 <hhalpin> I am pretty sure Datalog can be transformed to SQL is a pretty straightforward manner.
16:46:44 <cygri> ... I'd like to understand the difference or overlap
16:47:32 <cygri> ... this is very new
16:48:26 <cygri> ericP: I put this together to demonstrate how you go from direct mapping to a nice graph that you can expose to the world
16:48:47 <cygri> ... and second, shows how a small set of RIF constructs can be used to achieve this
16:49:27 <cygri> ... use case: you have a triple store, and have your stuff with different schema, but still want to be able to honor queries according to the old schema
16:49:46 <cygri> juansequeda: datalog, RIF, you get the same thing out
16:49:51 <mhausenblas> q?
16:49:58 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:50:29 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas 
16:50:46 <mhausenblas> Richard: How does this fit in with our deliverables?
16:50:52 <mhausenblas> ... I'm a bit confused
16:51:23 <mhausenblas> ... first is providing templates, second quite generic (no user options ?)
16:51:29 <mhausenblas> scribnick: cygri 
16:51:37 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:51:42 <cygri> Marcelo: second is also intended as executable
16:52:00 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #rdb2rdf
16:52:24 <juansequeda> Marcelo is talking about this doc http://web.ing.puc.cl/~marenas/W3C/mapping_language.txt
16:54:02 <Zakim> -soeren
16:54:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:54:40 <Zakim> +soeren
16:54:48 <hhalpin> Zakim,[IPcaller] is hhalpin
16:54:48 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:55:05 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:55:16 <Souri> q+
16:55:24 <Ashok> q+
16:55:27 <cygri> juansequeda: imagine db with really complicated relations, keys etc
16:55:37 <cygri> ... the first language is too complicated in that case
16:56:32 <cygri> mhausenblas: if this was prolog syntax, would i just run it in prolog?
16:56:34 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:56:37 <cygri> Marcelo: yes exactly
16:57:07 <cygri> Souri: we have this little software that actually implements these rules
16:57:18 <Zakim> -hhalpin
16:57:23 <mhausenblas> q?
16:57:28 <cygri> ... we look at the tables etc
16:57:44 <cygri> ... we wrote that system once, and it is generic and can be used for all schemas
16:58:05 <cygri> Marcelo: the language allows users to write other transformations as well
16:58:10 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
16:58:20 <mhausenblas> q?
16:58:26 <cygri> Souri: assuming you have an implementation that understands this rule language and predicates, right?
16:58:30 <cygri> Marcelo: yes
16:58:51 <cygri> mhausenblas: Wrapping up
16:59:01 <cygri> ... here's a very interesting proposal
16:59:07 <cygri> ... let's consider discussion on the list
16:59:36 <Zakim> -soeren
16:59:37 <Zakim> -Souri
16:59:37 <cygri> ... adjourned
16:59:37 <Zakim> -Seema
16:59:40 <Zakim> -Marcelo
16:59:44 <Zakim> -EricP
16:59:45 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:59:50 <Zakim> -Dan
16:59:54 <mhausenblas> thanks a lot to Marcelo and juansequeda 
17:00:01 <cygri> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html cygri
17:00:31 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:00:37 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see lima, Ashok, MacTed (muted), LeeF
17:00:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, Dan, cygri, boris, Souri, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, dmiles_afk, trackbot, ericP
17:00:47 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees?
17:00:47 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
17:00:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
17:00:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.562.249.aaaa, +3539149aabb, mhausenblas, Marcelo, +1.603.897.aacc, Ashok, juansequeda, MacTed, lima, +49.322.222.0.aadd, soeren,
17:00:55 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee, Seema, +1.617.553.aaff, Souri, LeeF, boris, cygri, hhalpin, EricP, +1.512.471.aagg, Dan
17:01:15 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:02:04 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:02:20 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:02:23 <cygri> s/scribnick/scribenick/
17:02:29 <cygri> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html cygri
17:03:23 <Zakim> -lima
17:03:56 <mhausenblas> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:04:03 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:12:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:12:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok
17:12:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, cygri, boris, juansequeda, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, dmiles_afk, trackbot, ericP
17:12:59 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
17:12:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.562.249.aaaa, +3539149aabb, mhausenblas, Marcelo, +1.603.897.aacc, Ashok, juansequeda, MacTed, lima, +49.322.222.0.aadd, soeren,
17:12:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
17:13:02 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee, Seema, +1.617.553.aaff, Souri, LeeF, boris, cygri, hhalpin, EricP, +1.512.471.aagg, Dan
17:14:03 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
17:14:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items