15:58:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #core
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-irc
15:58:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #core
15:58:15 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
15:58:15 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
15:58:26 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:58:40 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Core Teleconference
15:58:48 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
15:58:49 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
15:58:53 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
15:59:10 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Jun/0009.html
15:59:16 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:59:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-minutes.html aphillip
16:02:27 <David> David has joined #core
16:08:20 <David> David has joined #core
16:28:46 <r12a> r12a has joined #core
16:29:37 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM has now started
16:29:44 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
16:30:01 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
16:30:01 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:30:02 <Zakim> -Addison_Phillips
16:30:02 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
16:30:03 <Zakim> +Richard
16:31:36 <David> David has joined #core
16:32:08 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #core
16:32:36 <Zakim> + +1.408.349.aaaa
16:34:29 <Zakim> + +44.141.888.aabb
16:34:46 <David> zakim, +44 is David
16:34:46 <Zakim> +David; got it
16:36:27 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
16:36:54 <aphillip> Topic: Minutes and Agenda review
16:37:17 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
16:37:35 <aphillip> addison: forward date-time proposal to HTML WG 
16:37:54 <aphillip> all: respond to Issue-88 survey on HTML-WG at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-88-objection-poll/
16:38:21 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
16:38:35 <najib> najib has joined #core
16:38:56 <aphillip> richard: program cmte "multilingual web" thing in Madrid
16:39:00 <aphillip> ... just decided dates
16:39:14 <aphillip> s/thing/event/
16:39:22 <aphillip> ... 26th and 27th of October
16:39:29 <aphillip> ... surveying field of best practices
16:39:39 <r12a> List of topic areas in the wiki at this point in the meeting:
16:39:39 <r12a> Why & where it matters - Voice - Semantic Web - Social Web - W3C standards - Language resources - Content management and authoring tools - Language selection & navigation - MT - Localization standards & tools - TM databases - Text mining - Language technologies - Browser development - Usability and Design for i18n - Cultural aspects (from script support to cultural differences) - Web addresses (IDNs and IRIs) - Mobile Web - Cloud based issues - Crowd-sourcing - D
16:39:39 <aphillip> ... "The Multilingual Web: Where are we?"
16:39:54 <aphillip> ... and you are all welcome to come
16:40:17 <aphillip> ... and you could all (nudge nudge) give a talk
16:40:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-minutes.html aphillip
16:40:55 <aphillip> richard: will be a call for papers soon
16:44:19 <aphillip> Topic: <b> and <i> tags document approval
16:44:34 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-b-and-i-tags.en.php
16:45:05 <aphillip> richard: please approve for wide-review
16:45:21 <aphillip> ... for publication in about a week
16:45:42 <aphillip> norbert: what does the HTML5 spec say
16:45:49 <aphillip> ... html4 has some handwaving there
16:46:11 <aphillip> ... but they all refer to some specific stylistic forms
16:46:19 <aphillip> ... are you trying to change standard practice?
16:46:32 <aphillip> richard: why are we not deprecating these discussion a few years ago
16:46:40 <aphillip> ... so we need to use them more sensibly
16:46:56 <aphillip> ... and ian (hixie) incorped comments
16:47:08 <aphillip> ... can't go away, but not necessarily presentational
16:47:29 <aphillip> Norbert: folks who use these really mean bold and italic
16:47:39 <aphillip> ... so trying to change them to using better markup
16:49:57 <r12a> Addison: try saying that people use these things to mean bold and italic, but that is problematic for various reasons
16:50:37 <r12a> ... if you use these tags in template documents that can make it more complicated when you localise
16:51:46 <aphillip> david: area of tweaking; make point about japanese, but even some western typefaces cannot be bolded or italicized as well
16:53:12 <r12a> norbert: change </span> to </i>
16:53:20 <r12a> ... and 'we don't use in English'
16:53:31 <aphillip> chair: all in favor of wide review?
16:53:56 <aphillip> addison: yes
16:54:00 <aphillip> norbert: yes
16:56:50 <aphillip> richard: should I use <b> with class name for slug lines?
16:57:08 <aphillip> Topic: HTML Issue-88
16:57:11 <najib> najib has joined #core
16:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-minutes.html aphillip
16:58:37 <aphillip> richard: summarizes his discussion with html chairs
16:58:49 <aphillip> ... 1. the original change proposal is never mentioned
16:59:01 <aphillip> ... response was that not updated recently
16:59:12 <aphillip> ... and you have a different opinion now 
16:59:22 <aphillip> ... but they included hixie's old proposal
16:59:36 <aphillip> richard: 2. they mentioned that i18n WG
16:59:42 <aphillip> ... has a different idea now
16:59:46 <aphillip> ... point to my idea
16:59:54 <aphillip> ... but its not a change proposal
17:00:06 <aphillip> ... so you can't point to it/can't criticize it
17:00:17 <aphillip> ... "too late for change proposals now"
17:01:00 <aphillip> ... 3. to the extent that we apply any numerical analysis... but they say they won't weigh votes, only technical arguments
17:01:12 <aphillip> richard: not sure what to do about concerns
17:01:20 <aphillip> ... need to express feelings in other proposals
17:01:35 <aphillip> ... join html wg or write to chairs
17:01:43 <aphillip> ... copy some lists if you write to chairs
17:04:02 <aphillip> addison: write to chairs and copy lists with respose of "mu"?
17:04:23 <aphillip> richard: options are:
17:04:50 <aphillip> ... 1. hixies proposal that there is no problem (meta can have only one value and changes meaning)
17:05:27 <aphillip> ... 2. hixie's propsal that makes content-language non-conforming in html5, removing possibility for validity
17:05:43 <aphillip> ... have this problem that it is a meta tag and should be available for that
17:06:21 <aphillip> ... 3. Leif's proposal is complicated but basically stay as currently but warn not to use in validator but do allow guessing if lang not available
17:06:50 <aphillip> ... I though it makes sense, but doesn't steer anyone in the right direction
17:07:23 <aphillip> richard: our last option was "don't guess default language from meta/http header"
17:07:30 <aphillip> ... otherwise all same as html4
17:08:04 <najib> najib has joined #core
17:10:37 <aphillip> definitely object to #1
17:10:52 <Zakim> +??P0
17:11:04 <fantasai> Zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
17:11:04 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
17:11:59 <aphillip> endorse leif's proposal?
17:12:09 <aphillip> richard: possibly needs a couple of changes
17:12:43 <aphillip> fantasai: not valid not supported
17:13:00 <aphillip> ... but inoperative is okay
17:13:43 <aphillip> fantasai: okay with guessing or not guessing lang from c-l
17:14:59 <fantasai> So, 4. It's valid, but doesn't have any effect (is effectively ignored)
17:15:06 <fantasai> I'm okay with 3 or 4
17:15:08 <fantasai> not 1 or 2
17:15:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-minutes.html aphillip
17:17:28 <aphillip> position proposal for wg: support leif's proposal, with a preference that content-language be severed (rendered inoperable), but can live with it
17:25:46 <aphillip> chair: objections to this position?
17:28:31 <aphillip> ACTION: all: respond to issue-88
17:31:17 <aphillip> ACTION: addison: write Internationalization WG position response
17:31:28 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
17:31:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-minutes.html aphillip
17:31:58 <Zakim> -David
17:31:59 <Zakim> -aphillip
17:32:01 <Zakim> -Norbert
17:32:04 <Zakim> -Richard
17:32:06 <aphillip> zakim, bye
17:32:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Richard, aphillip, +1.408.349.aaaa, Norbert, +44.141.888.aabb, David, fantasai
17:32:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #core
17:32:09 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
17:32:09 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-actions.rdf :
17:32:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all: respond to issue-88 [1]
17:32:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-irc#T17-28-31
17:32:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: write Internationalization WG position response [2]
17:32:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-core-irc#T17-31-17