IRC log of svg on 2010-06-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:07 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:59:07 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/29-svg-irc
19:59:09 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
19:59:09 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #svg
19:59:11 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:11 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:12 [trackbot]: Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:12 [trackbot]: Date: 29 June 2010
19:59:58 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG()4:00PM has now started
20:00:05 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:00:11 [ed]: Zakim, [IP is me
20:00:11 [Zakim]: +ed; got it
20:00:50 [Zakim]: + +33.9.53.77.aaaa
20:01:08 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:01:16 [anthony_work]: Zakim, [IP is me
20:01:16 [Zakim]: +anthony_work; got it
20:01:26 [ed]: Zakim, +33 is tav
20:01:26 [Zakim]: +tav; got it
20:04:41 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
20:08:43 [anthony_work]: scribenick: anthony_work
20:08:50 [anthony_work]: scribe: Anthony
20:09:04 [anthony_work]: Topic: Last Call Comments
20:09:40 [anthony_work]: ISSUE-2331?
20:09:40 [trackbot]: ISSUE-2331 -- <solidColor> references -- raised
20:09:40 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2331
20:09:47 [anthony_work]: ED: looks pretty easy
20:09:50 [anthony_work]: AG: I can do that one
20:10:32 [anthony_work]: ACTION: Anthony to Fix solidColor wording raised in ISSUE-2331
20:10:33 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2806 - Fix solidColor wording raised in ISSUE-2331 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-07-06].
20:10:47 [anthony_work]: ISSUE-2332?
20:10:47 [trackbot]: ISSUE-2332 -- Comment regarding Text layout -- raised
20:10:47 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2332
20:11:04 [anthony_work]: ED: That one is more tricky
20:11:19 [anthony_work]: ... need more tests on that one
20:11:28 [anthony_work]: ... seems like the section in 10.7 is missleading
20:12:27 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jun/0166.html
20:12:51 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jun/0175.html
20:13:01 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jun/0180.html
20:13:06 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jun/0181.html
20:13:51 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0153.html
20:13:56 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0154.html
20:14:02 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0155.html
20:14:13 [anthony_work]: ED: There was discussion on the member list as well
20:14:28 [anthony_work]: ... I had a look at this awell
20:14:50 [anthony_work]: ... I don't think the text-text-06.svg test can pass
20:14:55 [anthony_work]: ... according to the section
20:15:09 [anthony_work]: ... there are other rules we should test when ligatures are formed
20:15:19 [anthony_work]: ... when you have letter space or kerning
20:15:58 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/text.html#TextLayout
20:16:25 [anthony_work]: ED: End of that section is the bullet list
20:17:07 [anthony_work]: AG: Do you think it's the bullet points that need fixing
20:17:45 [ed]: "Ligatures only occur when a set of characters which might map to a ligature are all in the same text chunk."
20:18:10 [anthony_work]: ED: The above text put in an email by Alex D
20:18:11 [ed]: "As mentioned above, ligature formation should not be enabled for the glyphs corresponding to characters within different text chunks."
20:18:21 [anthony_work]: ... the last bullet point is somewhat similar
20:18:35 [anthony_work]: ... we should remove the last one if we remove the first one
20:18:58 [anthony_work]: h\
20:19:34 [anthony_work]: s/h\/ED: The knock on effects of removing those bullet points could be a problem
20:20:40 [anthony_work]: ... Do you want me to investigate what other dependencies there are with ligature forming rules
20:21:47 [anthony_work]: ... I'll check Tiny if there's any wording
20:21:57 [anthony_work]: ... looks the same
20:22:40 [anthony_work]: TB: Do you understand the purpose of the rule?
20:23:09 [anthony_work]: ED: I guess it depends on how the x and y position rules are suppose to work
20:23:20 [anthony_work]: ... if it applies to the glyph or the character
20:23:57 [anthony_work]: ... I think the x and y are based on characters and not glyphs
20:24:36 [anthony_work]: ... so the list of coordinates in x corresponds to the first n characters
20:25:06 [anthony_work]: ... do we have any tests for that particular thing?
20:25:21 [anthony_work]: AG: I made complicated one for the rotation values
20:25:31 [anthony_work]: ED: Do you have any ligatures in that one?
20:25:40 [anthony_work]: AG: No just uses a standard font
20:25:58 [anthony_work]: ED: Would be a bit more obvious if we use an Arabic font
20:27:46 [anthony_work]: TB: If you're moving characters around you should not use ligatures which is what the 1st bullet put in the last 3 is saying
20:28:01 [anthony_work]: ... but if you read the 3rd bullet point there's an inconsistency
20:28:18 [anthony_work]: ED: That is sort of suggesting that we remove that one as well
20:28:30 [anthony_work]: ... One way to move on this is to make some tests
20:28:39 [anthony_work]: ... and see what implementations are doing
20:28:59 [anthony_work]: TB: I guess I'm trying to see where this would be used
20:30:29 [anthony_work]: ED: One problem with the test as it is
20:30:39 [anthony_work]: ... the fact it requires SVG fonts
20:30:51 [anthony_work]: ... because we can't test Firefox
20:31:17 [anthony_work]: ... I think I can take an action to come up with a few new tests
20:32:17 [anthony_work]: ACTION: Erik to Create some new tests that relate to the problems in ISSUE-2332
20:32:17 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2807 - Create some new tests that relate to the problems in ISSUE-2332 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-07-06].
20:33:19 [anthony_work]: ED: I would suggest waiting for this to see if there are any opinions on this
20:33:56 [anthony_work]: ... it would be nice to see some more tests with ligature forming
20:34:05 [anthony_work]: ISSUE-2333?
20:34:05 [trackbot]: ISSUE-2333 -- more BackgroundImage/enable-background issues -- raised
20:34:05 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2333
20:35:06 [anthony_work]: ED: There is some suggested wording
20:36:43 [anthony_work]: ... I don't think it's more clear to remove that sentence
20:37:23 [anthony_work]: ... Instead of removing the text could add to the wording to make it more clear
20:37:38 [ed]: instead of removing "which might require the SVG user agent to allocate
20:37:39 [ed]: buffers as large as the current viewport." we could instead make it say "which might require the SVG user agent to allocate
20:37:39 [ed]: buffers as large as or larger than the current viewport."
20:38:23 [anthony_work]: ED: Depends on what we think is the right thing to do
20:38:53 [anthony_work]: TB: What happens if you create an image outside the viewPort and then use it?
20:39:12 [anthony_work]: ... I know Inkscape people will create symbols outside the viewport
20:39:22 [anthony_work]: ... then expect to use them with the use inside the viewport
20:39:37 [anthony_work]: ED: I think it makes sense to be able to generate things outside of the viewPort
20:40:20 [anthony_work]: ... you have an x,y offset for enable-background=new
20:40:32 [anthony_work]: ... so could set negative values for that
20:41:01 [anthony_work]: ... doesn't have to be negative just outside the viewPort
20:42:40 [anthony_work]: ... I think what the spec is trying to say is if you don't give any values then you end up with an allocation the size of the viewPort
20:43:19 [anthony_work]: ... wait it's not exactly like that. You give it the size it needs
20:43:34 [anthony_work]: ... in that case I agree we should remove that part of the sentence
20:44:16 [anthony_work]: RESOLUTION: We will remove the last part of the sentence as suggested
20:44:37 [anthony_work]: ACTION: Anthony to Remove the last part of the sentence as suggested in ISSUE-2333
20:44:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2808 - Remove the last part of the sentence as suggested in ISSUE-2333 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-07-06].
20:45:14 [anthony_work]: ISSUE-2334?
20:45:14 [trackbot]: ISSUE-2334 -- filter primitive subregion and feGaussianBlur, feTile and infinite filter input images -- raised
20:45:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2334
20:45:47 [anthony_work]: ED: Says it's following a change I made very late to the spec
20:46:14 [ed]: s/ED: Says it's following a change I made very late to the spec//
20:46:47 [anthony_work]: ED: We've discussed this before
20:46:58 [anthony_work]: ... it was one of the issues raised by ROC
20:47:43 [anthony_work]: ... as Opera implemented it's a hard clipping region
20:48:21 [anthony_work]: ... you might not get the edges as you expect, things might extend outside the filter primitive subregion
20:48:45 [anthony_work]: ... I think he wants to get rid of the clipping part so graphics will look the way they should
20:50:09 [anthony_work]: AG: I've noticed the same thing with blur filters
20:50:25 [anthony_work]: ED: I dunno if we change the meaning of subregion is that useful
20:50:36 [anthony_work]: ... to say that the width and height are ignored
20:50:55 [anthony_work]: ... as in analysis the filter change to see what areas are affected
20:52:17 [anthony_work]: AG: Wouldn't you want to keep the max width and height in the filter chain
20:52:27 [anthony_work]: ED: You may want to do the clip though
20:52:37 [anthony_work]: TB: Are there any use cases for this?
20:53:00 [anthony_work]: ED: I have used the subregions for cases where the filters are very expensive to run
20:53:49 [anthony_work]: ... essentially for us this is a rectangular clipping region
20:55:12 [anthony_work]: ... this is a change I would be more willing to make in the filters module
20:55:39 [anthony_work]: ... because it can be useful for very expensive filters
20:56:00 [anthony_work]: TB: Let's take the case of the blur
20:56:07 [anthony_work]: ... you have two choices
20:56:13 [anthony_work]: ... with the area defined
20:56:27 [anthony_work]: ... you use only the stuff within the region to calculate the blur
20:56:42 [anthony_work]: ... or that it has a region of interest
20:57:17 [anthony_work]: ... if you're restricting the output area then you're not going to have artefacts along the edge
20:57:37 [anthony_work]: ... if you're only concerned about the output you wont have any discontinuity
20:57:57 [anthony_work]: ... that's what I think this is getting at
20:58:05 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#FilterPrimitiveSubRegion
20:58:59 [anthony_work]: ED: In the cases I've seen, it's not just the subregions clipping things
21:00:16 [anthony_work]: ACTION: Erik to Investigate ISSUE-2334 and report back
21:00:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2809 - Investigate ISSUE-2334 and report back [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-07-06].
21:00:34 [anthony_work]: ED: Potentially it's a bigger change than I feel comfortable doing for this spec
21:00:42 [anthony_work]: TB: I think it's about defining it better
21:01:51 [Zakim]: -anthony_work
21:01:55 [Zakim]: -tav
21:01:56 [Zakim]: -ed
21:01:56 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG()4:00PM has ended
21:01:58 [Zakim]: Attendees were [IPcaller], ed, +33.9.53.77.aaaa, anthony_work, tav
21:02:31 [anthony_work]: Zakim, bye
21:02:31 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #svg
21:02:43 [anthony_work]: RRSAgent, make minutes
21:02:43 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/29-svg-minutes.html anthony_work