IRC log of dap on 2010-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:23:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:23:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:23:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:23:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:23:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:23:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
13:23:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
13:23:12 [trackbot]
Date: 16 June 2010
13:23:23 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
13:23:35 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
13:23:43 [fjh]
Regrets+ Robin_Berjon
13:24:14 [fjh]
13:24:45 [fjh]
Regrets+ Dzung_Tran
13:25:07 [fjh]
Topic: Administrative
13:40:42 [fjh]
Regrets+ Laura_Arribas
13:41:15 [fjh]
Regrets+ Suresh_Chitturi
13:42:48 [fjh]
Regrets+ Paddy_Byers
13:43:35 [maoteo]
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13:43:43 [fjh]
Regrets+ Erica_Newland, John_Morris
13:51:06 [fjh]
Regrets+ Marco_Marengo
13:58:30 [maoteo]
Present+ Maria_Oteo
13:59:38 [alissa]
alissa has joined #dap
14:00:03 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:00:08 [Zakim]
14:00:09 [Zakim]
14:00:11 [Zakim]
14:00:16 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:00:16 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:00:27 [alissa]
Present+ Alissa_Cooper
14:00:53 [jsalsman]
jsalsman has joined #dap
14:01:11 [Zakim]
14:01:16 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bryan_sullivan, fjh, alissa, jsalsman
14:01:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jsalsman, alissa, maoteo, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wmaslowski, Marcos, tlr, lgombos, ingmar, ilkka, dom, trackbot
14:01:29 [bryan_sullivan]
bryan_sullivan has joined #dap
14:01:44 [jsalsman]
Present+ James_Salsman
14:01:51 [bryan_sullivan]
present+ bryan_sullivan
14:02:05 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:02:23 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
14:02:48 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:03:12 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:03:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bryan_sullivan, fjh, alissa, jsalsman
14:03:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Claes, bryan_sullivan, jsalsman, alissa, maoteo, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wmaslowski, Marcos, tlr, lgombos, ingmar, ilkka, dom, trackbot
14:03:22 [maoteo]
I am having problems for getting into the bridge
14:03:33 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
14:03:55 [Zakim]
14:04:01 [maoteo]
14:04:08 [maoteo]
many times
14:04:42 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
14:04:45 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
14:04:49 [Zakim]
14:05:04 [dom]
zakim, code?
14:05:15 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:05:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
14:05:56 [Zakim]
+ +358.504.86aaaa
14:06:13 [Marcos_]
Marcos_ has joined #dap
14:06:17 [fjh]
zakim, aaaa is ilkka
14:06:17 [Zakim]
+ilkka; got it
14:06:33 [ilkka]
Present+ Ilkka_Oksanen
14:06:40 [Zakim]
+ +34.97.421.aabb
14:06:48 [maoteo]
zakim, aabb is maoteo
14:06:48 [Zakim]
+maoteo; got it
14:06:55 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:06:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bryan_sullivan, fjh, alissa, jsalsman, Dom, Thomas, ilkka, maoteo
14:06:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Marcos_, richt, AnssiK, Claes, bryan_sullivan, jsalsman, alissa, maoteo, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wmaslowski, Marcos, tlr, lgombos, ingmar, ilkka, dom, trackbot
14:07:01 [Zakim]
+ +358.504.86aacc
14:07:15 [AnssiK]
zakim, aacc is AnssiK
14:07:16 [Zakim]
+AnssiK; got it
14:07:21 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:07:23 [dom]
zakim, who's noisy?
14:07:33 [Zakim]
dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: maoteo (4%), fjh (35%), Dom (4%)
14:07:37 [fjh]
ScribeNick: maoteo
14:07:41 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:07:41 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:07:58 [jsalsman]
zakim, mute me
14:07:58 [Zakim]
jsalsman should now be muted
14:08:23 [tlr]
zakim, I am thomas
14:08:23 [Zakim]
ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
14:08:25 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
14:08:25 [Zakim]
Thomas should now be muted
14:08:56 [maoteo]
Topic: announcements
14:08:59 [fjh]
DAP registration form
14:09:11 [fjh]
14:09:16 [maoteo]
fjh: London registration is open, please complete asap
14:09:23 [dom]
-> Current registrants for London F2F (17 registered)
14:09:23 [fjh]
ation and information available (F2F after London F2F, 4-5 November )
14:09:32 [fjh]
14:09:38 [maoteo]
... tpac registration is already available, F2F meeting for DAP already booked
14:10:00 [Zakim]
+ +
14:10:11 [maoteo]
Topic: minutes approval
14:10:14 [fjh]
9 June 2010
14:10:21 [fjh]
14:10:23 [Claes]
zakim, aadd is Claes
14:10:23 [Zakim]
+Claes; got it
14:10:26 [jsalsman]
thanks to the scribe who has better ears than I
14:10:41 [maoteo]
Resolution: minutes of 9 June approved
14:11:13 [Zakim]
+ +44.777.911.aaee
14:11:22 [richt]
Zakim, aaee is me
14:11:22 [Zakim]
+richt; got it
14:11:28 [richt]
Present+ Richard_Tibbett
14:11:33 [maoteo]
Topic: Policy Framework
14:11:45 [jsalsman]
Dom's comments:
14:12:18 [fjh]
14:12:19 [maoteo]
fjh: Dom has specific comments on the framework doc
14:12:27 [maoteo]
... most of them seem to be editorial
14:12:44 [jsalsman]
I haven't been able to get through all those yet
14:13:07 [fjh]
need to crisply and concretely define capabilities and features
14:13:27 [fjh]
Daniel message
14:13:32 [Zakim]
14:13:34 [dom]
-> FJH's comment on capabilities and features for Contacts API
14:13:58 [Zakim]
14:14:26 [fjh]
14:14:31 [maoteo]
fjh: we may need to do the work on capabilties and features in conjunction with the API definition
14:15:05 [jsalsman]
Should remote policy provisioning be removed into a seperate document?
14:15:06 [maoteo]
fjh: ... initial input was based on BONDI APIs, but for instance DAP APIs are different
14:15:15 [dom]
ack me
14:15:52 [maoteo]
dom: before we move forward with the policy framework we need to discuss features and capabilities in a concrete manner
14:15:59 [maoteo]
... need to avoid abstract discussions
14:16:59 [maoteo]
... solving relationship with DCO may just be an editorial work
14:17:24 [richt]
14:17:25 [fjh]
14:17:28 [maoteo]
fjh: we should publish something soon to keep the momentum
14:17:30 [fjh]
ack richt
14:17:33 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:17:33 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:18:10 [jsalsman]
Should initial policy default provisioning be the same as enterprise policy re-provisioning? In a separate document like "Default security provisioning"?
14:18:14 [maoteo]
richt: there is a possible mapping for contacts
14:18:21 [maoteo]
... should send to the mailing list
14:18:29 [maoteo]
14:19:12 [fjh]
14:19:46 [jsalsman]
14:19:50 [maoteo]
fjh: anybody willing to contribute to the framework doc so that we can publish next week?
14:19:57 [richt]
FYI, I sent an email RE: Capabilities and Contacts a while back:
14:19:58 [jsalsman]
let's split out the default perms
14:20:15 [richt]
things may have changed a little bit since then but it's been considered.
14:20:50 [maoteo]
bryan_sullivan: will try to provide some inputs by next week
14:21:08 [jsalsman]
what is the semantic distinction between framework and profile?
14:21:20 [Zakim]
14:21:27 [fjh]
action: bryan to respond to Dom's comments before next week, ,
14:21:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-193 - Respond to Dom's comments before next week, , [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2010-06-23].
14:21:37 [drogersuk]
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14:21:41 [tlr]
known issue
14:21:55 [drogersuk]
present+ David_Rogers
14:22:02 [fjh]
zakim, ??P17 is drogersuk
14:22:02 [Zakim]
+drogersuk; got it
14:22:20 [jsalsman]
I would rather see something like data structures/default provisioning than framework/profile
14:23:56 [dom]
-> Dom's comments on XACML Profile CfC
14:24:05 [dom]
ack me
14:24:42 [fjh]
Highlights of comments, need to clarify what is profiling of XACML 2 versus repeat of XACML material
14:24:45 [Zakim]
14:24:54 [wmaslowski]
Present+ Wojciech_Masłowski
14:24:57 [fjh]
Move examples from examples document to XACML profile
14:25:13 [fjh]
conformance needed
14:25:15 [maoteo]
dom: general concern is that the policy document is not in a publishable form
14:25:22 [richt]
14:25:27 [jsalsman]
agreed with move examples, but I have comments about the overlap between framework and profile documents
14:25:46 [fjh]
prompt-x seems to require prompting, perhaps should be restated as user-permission
14:26:10 [maoteo]
Resolution: Merge examples document with profile doc
14:26:23 [jsalsman]
James Salsman
14:26:24 [jsalsman]
or Jim
14:26:32 [jsalsman]
ack me
14:26:36 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:26:36 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:27:08 [maoteo]
jsalsman: there is an overlap framework between framework and profiles
14:27:24 [maoteo]
... suggestion 1 document for data structures and another ones for the algorithm
14:27:31 [maoteo]
14:28:09 [maoteo]
... and maybe both should contain examples
14:28:30 [dom]
14:28:45 [maoteo]
fjh: profile is very linked to XACML whereas the framework is not
14:29:35 [dom]
q+ to say that Framework currently defines a lot of syntactic aspects of the XML format (in particular in section 3.2-3.4)
14:29:55 [fjh]
ack dom
14:29:57 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to say that Framework currently defines a lot of syntactic aspects of the XML format (in particular in section 3.2-3.4)
14:30:01 [jsalsman]
Zakim, mute me
14:30:01 [Zakim]
jsalsman should now be muted
14:30:10 [maoteo]
fjh: sending a proposal in the mailing list would help to standard the suggested approach
14:30:41 [fjh]
dom notes section 3 of framework has lots of syntactic detail, hence division between model and format is not clean
14:30:49 [maoteo]
dom: currently the division between the model and the format is not very clean
14:31:11 [maoteo]
... for instance sections 3.2.2 3.2.4 provide a lot of syntactic detail
14:31:22 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:31:22 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:32:23 [fjh]
14:32:43 [fjh] comments from mohamed
14:33:20 [jsalsman]
how about Policy Framework and Profile (with examples included) -- kind of a merge, and Provisioning (actions, also with examples)
14:33:25 [maoteo]
resolution: editors to include editorial comments suggested b Mohamed and Dom
14:33:34 [dom]
14:33:37 [maoteo]
14:34:11 [jsalsman]
where is provisioning in scope?
14:34:47 [fjh]
Privacy and Policy requirements are ready to publish?
14:34:50 [dom]
14:34:51 [maoteo]
fjh: privacy and policy requirements are ready to publish
14:34:54 [fjh]
ack dom
14:34:55 [dom]
ack me
14:35:30 [maoteo]
dom: no comments received
14:35:48 [maoteo]
... either for publishing or not publishing them
14:36:34 [jsalsman]
the examples? can they be merged?
14:37:37 [maoteo]
Resolution: Publish the Policy and Privacy Requirements doc, publication date will be 29 June
14:37:42 [jsalsman]
currently the examples document has one example "Defending against premium rate abuse"
14:38:19 [dom]
14:38:26 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:38:26 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:38:29 [jsalsman]
I agree the policy and privacy requirements can be published, except for the part about always avoiding prompts, I think that needs to be reworded
14:38:33 [fjh]
action: fjh to do pubrules on policy and privacy requirements
14:38:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-194 - Do pubrules on policy and privacy requirements [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2010-06-23].
14:39:04 [maoteo]
TOPIC: Transferring File* to WebApps
14:39:28 [fjh]
14:39:30 [fjh]
14:39:30 [dom]
-> Transferring File* to WebApps — Proposed path forward
14:39:42 [maoteo]
fjh: Robin made a proposal on the mailing list
14:40:11 [fjh]
File Writer and File Directories and System moves to WebApps
14:40:51 [maoteo]
... the suggestion is moving File Writer and File Directories and System to WebApps
14:41:41 [maoteo]
... is there any objection to Robin's proposal?
14:41:42 [dom]
+1 on moving File* to WebApps
14:42:15 [maoteo]
bryan_sullivan: is the assumption that there is no more File related work in DAP?
14:42:17 [jsalsman]
how about input type=file ?
14:42:41 [maoteo]
... the ability to extend these APIs for non browser contexts is important
14:43:09 [jsalsman]
can we approve the mime/type;source=device formalism before we transfer this work?
14:43:55 [maoteo]
fjh: first of all we should try to work with WebApps
14:44:40 [maoteo]
bryansullivan: there at least two additional methods on the FileSystem interface that are needed from non browser contexts
14:44:49 [maoteo]
14:45:31 [maoteo]
fjh: could be handled by an extended spec and conformance
14:45:37 [jsalsman]
also, treating the entire file system as a single device is really a problem
14:45:50 [jsalsman]
traditionally perms are per-file
14:45:51 [dom]
+1 on layering approach as needed
14:47:14 [maoteo]
fjh: suggestion is following the extension concept instead of defining a new API in DAP
14:47:29 [dom]
ack me
14:48:21 [fjh]
14:48:34 [jsalsman]
there were :)
14:49:23 [jsalsman]
ack me
14:52:21 [jsalsman]
mute me
14:54:14 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: The DAP WG agrees to move the File Writer and File Directories and Systems API specifications work to the WebApps WG, however the DAP WG may continue work on extensions to the APIs or additional work in this area
14:54:26 [jsalsman]
14:55:06 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: The DAP WG agrees to move the File Writer and File Directories and Systems API specifications work to the WebApps WG
14:55:16 [dom]
14:55:28 [tlr]
+1 to the simple one
14:55:31 [maoteo]
RESOLUTION: The DAP WG agrees to move the File Writer and File Directories and Systems API specifications work to the WebApps WG
14:55:55 [dom]
14:56:11 [fjh]
action: fjh to notify chairs of WebApps of DAP decision re file specs
14:56:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-195 - Notify chairs of WebApps of DAP decision re file specs [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2010-06-23].
14:56:15 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:56:15 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:56:36 [maoteo]
TOPIC: SysInfo
14:56:57 [dom]
14:56:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-191 -- James Salsman to send pre-LC editorial comments on system-info and camera/Media Capture -- due 2010-06-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:56:57 [trackbot]
14:57:04 [dom]
ack me
14:57:10 [jsalsman]
ack me
14:57:26 [maoteo]
dom: sent some comments to improve the codecs part
14:57:33 [dom]
s/sent/James sent/
14:57:58 [dom]
-> James' comments on SysInfo (and Media Capture)
14:59:11 [maoteo]
jsalsman: substantial problems, types are free forms, problem with exceptions, microphone should have a name attribute, mime types are free form
15:00:04 [richt]
jsalsman, 'No exceptions' is an automatic ReSpec.js addition to the specs...maybe that needs addressing on the mailing list? (actually, is there a dedicated mailing list for discussing ReSpec e.g. pub-tools?)
15:00:12 [bryan_sullivan]
if you need someone to make the changes for Jame's comments I can help out
15:00:12 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:00:12 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
15:00:16 [jsalsman]
mute me
15:00:18 [dom]
richt, spec-prod@w3.orgis that list
15:00:26 [dom]
s/orgis/org is/
15:00:28 [richt]
thanks, dom
15:00:31 [dom]
15:01:05 [maoteo]
bryan_sullivan: Can help with implementing the agreed changes
15:01:20 [fjh]
action: dzung to incorporate edits from James proposal
15:01:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-196 - Incorporate edits from James proposal [on Dzung Tran - due 2010-06-23].
15:01:28 [fjh]
all, please review
15:01:35 [dom]
Zakim, mute jsalsman
15:01:35 [Zakim]
jsalsman should now be muted
15:02:10 [maoteo]
TOPIC: Contacts
15:02:20 [fjh]
15:02:48 [dom]
-> Contacts API editors draft
15:02:50 [maoteo]
richt: some changes on the normative descriptions
15:03:28 [dom]
15:03:28 [trackbot]
ISSUE-71 -- Difference in data model between Contacts/Calendar APIs and vCard/vCalendar -- open
15:03:28 [trackbot]
15:03:40 [Zakim]
15:04:12 [maoteo]
... the APIs themselves have not changed that much, but the schema has changed
15:04:27 [dom]
-> Contact Properties
15:05:11 [maoteo]
... for instance, the contact properties have changed, now they are not defined in the spec but linked to the portable contacts definition
15:05:28 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
15:05:28 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:05:29 [Zakim]
15:06:03 [fjh]
ContactProperties interface has changed to use portable schema
15:06:15 [maoteo]
richt: producing a common set is very difficult due to the different information available in different sources: device, web, UICC
15:07:47 [maoteo]
fjh: target publication date?
15:08:11 [fjh]
suggest WG review updated contacts draft then publish on 29th
15:08:37 [dom]
ack me
15:09:57 [fjh]
action: robin to add to agenda next week to agree to publish updated contacts WD on 29 June
15:09:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-197 - Add to agenda next week to agree to publish updated contacts WD on 29 June [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-06-23].
15:09:58 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:09:58 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
15:10:09 [richt]
15:10:31 [fjh]
ack richt
15:10:55 [dom]
ack me
15:12:31 [jsalsman]
for the interop aspects it might be better to get it out in front of the public early
15:12:56 [fjh]
action: richt to prepare Contacts for publications, with pubrules
15:12:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-198 - Prepare Contacts for publications, with pubrules [on Richard Tibbett - due 2010-06-23].
15:13:31 [jsalsman]
what is access "once" for something like calendar or contacts?
15:13:31 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:13:31 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
15:13:40 [jsalsman]
access to one item or one query?
15:13:53 [maoteo]
fjh: status of calendar?
15:13:59 [fjh]
topic: Calendar
15:14:11 [maoteo]
richt: most of the effort has been put on Contacts
15:14:21 [fjh]
richt some open issues on dates and times to address on list
15:14:21 [dom]
15:14:21 [trackbot]
ISSUE-81 -- How to represent dates? ES has Date but with no TZ information; using strings is less than ideal; do we have to create a Web Dates specification? -- open
15:14:21 [trackbot]
15:14:32 [fjh]
richt also notes some open editorial actions
15:14:48 [fjh]
richt notes need to discuss with suresh, review on next week's call
15:14:57 [maoteo]
... some discussion on the mailing list, need to talk to Suresh to check what are the next steps
15:15:25 [jsalsman]
julian date in double precision floating point UT timestamp?
15:15:28 [tlr]
15:15:28 [alissa]
15:15:48 [fjh]
ack tlr
15:16:09 [fjh]
ack alissa
15:17:31 [tlr]
15:17:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-92 -- Thomas Roessler to give a heads up to the IETF/W3C liaison for review and input from IETF around PIM -- due 2010-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:17:31 [trackbot]
15:17:32 [maoteo]
TOPIC: Pending Actions
15:17:33 [richt]
q+ to close ACTION-125
15:18:14 [fjh]
ack richt
15:18:14 [Zakim]
richt, you wanted to close ACTION-125
15:18:16 [richt]
yep, that is a seperate q
15:18:27 [fjh]
15:18:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-125 -- Richard Tibbett to fold in Contacts changes -- due 2010-06-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:18:30 [trackbot]
15:19:06 [fjh]
please let richard if any outstanding changes to contacts needed, please review
15:19:23 [Zakim]
15:19:25 [Zakim]
15:19:29 [Zakim]
15:19:31 [Zakim]
15:19:31 [Zakim]
15:19:32 [Zakim]
15:19:35 [Zakim]
15:19:35 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:19:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:19:36 [Zakim]
15:19:36 [Zakim]
15:19:41 [Zakim]
15:19:42 [Zakim]
15:19:56 [Zakim]
15:20:11 [jsalsman]
jsalsman has left #dap
15:28:40 [fjh]
s/I am having problems for getting into the bridge//
15:28:56 [fjh]
15:28:59 [fjh]
s/many times//
15:29:09 [fjh]
s/ thanks to the scribe who has better ears than I//
15:30:11 [fjh]
s/he DAP WG agrees to move the File Writer and File Directories and Systems API/ DAP WG agrees to move the File Writer and File Directories and System API/
15:30:27 [fjh]
s/mute me//
15:30:44 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:30:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:31:30 [fjh]
s/T DAP WG agrees/The DAP WG agrees/
15:31:36 [fjh]
rrsagent,generate minutes
15:31:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:33:41 [fjh]
s/suggested b M/suggested by M/
15:34:17 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:34:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:35:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, AnssiK, in UW_DAP()10:00AM
15:35:02 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:35:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were alissa, bryan_sullivan, fjh, jsalsman, Dom, Thomas, +358.504.86aaaa, ilkka, +34.97.421.aabb, maoteo, +358.504.86aacc, AnssiK, +, Claes,
15:35:07 [Zakim]
... +44.777.911.aaee, richt, drogersuk, wojtekM
15:51:06 [Marcos]
Marcos has joined #dap
17:34:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dap