15:53:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/08-rdb2rdf-irc
15:53:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:53:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:54 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:53:54 <trackbot> Date: 08 June 2010
15:54:00 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jun/0016.html
15:54:04 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:54:22 <mhausenblas> any scribe volunteers around? :)
15:57:11 <alexdeleon> alexdeleon has joined #RDB2RDF
15:57:44 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:51 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:57:58 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:58:03 <Zakim> + +1.512.471.aaaa
15:58:08 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:18 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #RDB2RDF
15:58:29 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aabb
15:58:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is juansequeda 
15:58:34 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
15:58:41 <MacTed> Zakim, aabb is OpenLink_Software
15:58:41 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:58:48 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:58:48 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:58:49 <whalb> whalb has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:58:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:59:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:59:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted)
15:59:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see whalb, juansequeda, boris, Seema, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, nunolopes, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:00:41 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
16:01:12 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is Seema 
16:01:12 <Zakim> +Seema; got it
16:01:40 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:01:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Seema
16:01:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see whalb, juansequeda, boris, Seema, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, nunolopes, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:01:45 <Zakim> + +43.316.876.aadd
16:01:51 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Ashok
16:02:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aadd is whalb 
16:02:02 <Zakim> +whalb; got it
16:02:09 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Soeren
16:02:14 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:29 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:30 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
16:02:39 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:39 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Li Ma
16:02:42 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:02:42 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:02:44 <Zakim> +EricP
16:02:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick victim
16:02:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick victim', mhausenblas
16:03:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
16:03:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose juansequeda
16:03:22 <mhausenblas> Chair: mhausenblas 
16:03:24 <Zakim> + +49.133.6.aaee
16:03:53 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
16:03:53 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:03:58 <mhausenblas> scribenick: cygri 
16:03:59 <cygri> s/scribe/victim/
16:04:25 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Seema, whalb, Souri, EricP, +49.133.6.aaee
16:04:28 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:04:48 <mhausenblas> zakim, who's here?
16:04:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Seema, whalb, Souri, EricP, +49.133.6.aaee
16:04:51 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:04:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, Souri, whalb, juansequeda, boris, Seema, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, nunolopes, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:05:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:26 <ericP> Zakim, [IPcaller] is orri
16:05:26 <Zakim> +orri; got it
16:05:58 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaee is alexdeleon 
16:05:58 <Zakim> +alexdeleon; got it
16:06:06 <mhausenblas> Zakim, boris is with alexdeleon 
16:06:06 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:06:12 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:06:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Seema, whalb, Souri, EricP, alexdeleon, orri
16:06:14 <Zakim> alexdeleon has alexdeleon, boris
16:06:15 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:06:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, Souri, whalb, juansequeda, boris, Seema, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:06:32 <cygri> topic: Admin
16:06:49 <mhausenblas> Agenda is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jun/0016.html
16:07:03 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept minutes of last meeting, http://www.w3.org/2010/06/01-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:07:08 <juansequeda> +1
16:07:18 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept minutes of last meeting, http://www.w3.org/2010/06/01-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:07:41 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:07:47 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb2rdf-ucr/
16:07:47 <cygri> topic: FPWD of Use Case Document
16:08:17 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
16:08:18 <cygri> ericP: FPWD is public
16:08:20 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:08:50 <cygri> mhausenblas: let's publicize it widely! tweet, blog, show to your grandma
16:09:08 <cygri> juansequeda: who announces it on semantic-web?
16:09:39 <cygri> ... also, i'll write a blog post for semantic universe mentioning it
16:09:59 <cygri> ericP: purpose of WD is to communicate with outside world
16:10:10 <cygri> ... the more we communicate now, the less unpleasant surprises later
16:10:26 <cygri> mhausenblas: also, it's advertising for the WG
16:10:34 <cygri> topic: RB2RDF SemTech Panel (Harry)
16:10:37 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Harry
16:11:12 <MacTed> *heh*
16:11:24 <cygri> mhausenblas: Harry said that more or less everything is prepared, Ivan offered to chair the panel
16:11:53 <cygri> juansequeda: who is going to be on the panel?
16:12:18 <mhausenblas> http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=3019
16:13:09 <cygri> mhausenblas: see here for list of panelists: http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=3019
16:14:25 <cygri> juansequeda: DanM also wants to be on the panel
16:16:05 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Eric to send list of SemTech panel members to Harry
16:16:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Send list of SemTech panel members to Harry [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-06-15].
16:16:06 <cygri> mhausenblas: not sure wether Ahmed is still going to be on the panel; probably just replace Ahmed with Dan in the list on the semtech site
16:16:32 <cygri> topic: F2F Meeting at SemTech
16:16:40 <mhausenblas> ACTION-56?
16:16:40 <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a wikipage for face-to-face -- due 2010-06-03 -- OPEN
16:16:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/56
16:16:52 <Souri> venue?
16:17:26 <cygri> mhausenblas: someone needs to take care of local organization -- ericP?
16:17:45 <cygri> ericP: any volunteers for housing the F2F?
16:18:18 <cygri> mhausenblas: harry mentioned Stanford
16:19:22 <cygri> ericP: if everyone ponies up some bucks, we can get a room and network from the hotel
16:20:27 <cygri> ericP: anyone staying in a particularly large hotel room?
16:21:37 <cygri> ericP: i can do local organization as long as it doesn't mean footing the bill
16:21:43 <mhausenblas> ACTION: eric to take care of local organisation
16:21:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Take care of local organisation [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-06-15].
16:22:01 <cygri> juansequeda: ask ashok wether we can do it at oracle?
16:22:24 <cygri> Souri: i can check with Oracle management -- don't know how it works on a Sunday
16:22:56 <cygri> mhausenblas: ok, ericP is process owner
16:23:43 <cygri> ericP: Souri, please check that we can get network to the outside and don't have to sign an NDA to get into the room
16:24:21 <cygri> Souri: location would be 45min outside of SF -- can take train, and then it's one more mile
16:25:22 <alexdeleon> Apologies, Boris and I wont be able to attend 
16:25:22 <Souri> time? 9-5pm?
16:25:32 <mhausenblas> Who will be at F2F?
16:25:35 <Seema> not me
16:25:36 <ericP> +1
16:25:40 <juansequeda> Dan and Juan
16:25:40 <Souri> me
16:25:50 <MacTed> I don't expect to ... sadly
16:26:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:26:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Seema, whalb, Souri, EricP, alexdeleon, orri
16:26:38 <Zakim> alexdeleon has alexdeleon, boris
16:26:40 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
16:26:40 <cygri> juansequeda: Harry likely won't be there
16:26:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, cygri, Souri, whalb, juansequeda, boris, Seema, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:26:50 <whalb> no, unfortunately not
16:26:55 <Souri> If Tony can do it, that will be the best (no commute)
16:27:57 <ericP> eric, richard, dan, juan, souri, ashok
16:28:07 <cygri> low bar: 6
16:28:08 <Souri> sure 
16:28:43 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:28:53 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mhausenblas (19%), juansequeda (44%), EricP (15%)
16:29:03 <juansequeda> Zakim, mute me
16:29:03 <Zakim> juansequeda should now be muted
16:29:16 <cygri> mhausenblas: so looks like 6 min, 10 max
16:29:33 <Souri> not much difference
16:30:08 <cygri> topic: A Direct Mapping of Relational Data to RDF
16:30:18 <Souri> options: 1) Tony 2) Oracle 3) Stanford 4) paying for it at a cheap hotel
16:30:27 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/
16:30:29 <ericP> -> A Direct Mapping of Relational Data to RDFhttp://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/
16:30:48 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Main_Page
16:31:49 <cygri> mhausenblas: i thought it's a good idea to have a seed editor's draft to discuss, but there can be wiki page as well
16:32:19 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/
16:32:21 <cygri> ... please raise issues in the tracker
16:32:59 <cygri> ... this allows us to create actions for the issues
16:33:45 <mhausenblas> Michael: if you mention issues or actions in mails (ISSUE-XX) or ACTION-YYY
16:34:21 <mhausenblas> This is ACTION-XXX
16:35:29 <cygri> ericP: i tried to create simple+conservative foundation
16:36:44 <cygri> mhausenblas: can you sum up what's the overall goal of this doc?
16:37:11 <cygri> ericP: provide common vocabulary for discussing mappings
16:37:37 <juansequeda> Zakim, unmute me
16:37:37 <Zakim> juansequeda should no longer be muted
16:37:41 <cygri> ... and define a simple and straightforward mapping that multiple vendors can implement
16:37:51 <juansequeda> q+
16:37:58 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
16:38:29 <cygri> Dan: we did a survey paper on this
16:39:01 <cygri> ... there's existing work. we shouldn't restart from the beginning
16:39:49 <cygri> ericP: this document should define terminology so that we can say, "this existing paper is direct mapping plus many-to-many plus xyz"
16:40:27 <cygri> ... i don't want to start over, but documenting connections to all the existing stuff is not usually role of w3c document
16:41:07 <cygri> Dan: are you looking for some small nugget, some core intersection that everyone who has ever done this agrees to?
16:41:30 <cygri> ericP: not really; wanted to start with a simple map
16:41:59 <cygri> Dan: my first thought was, rewrite this in a different notation so i can compare it to that other thing
16:42:05 <cygri> ericP: i'm agnostic about notation
16:42:07 <mhausenblas> q+
16:42:35 <cygri> Dan: notation is important. charter says we should be looking at RIF
16:43:01 <cygri> ... we could start with W3C notation (RIF), or DB notation (datalog)
16:43:15 <cygri> ... for myself, either of these is fine
16:43:20 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:43:39 <Souri> As I mentioned in last meeting's post-adjourn session, it is critical to add to the formal part an informal decscription of RDB2RDF mapping (most people will read it)
16:43:44 <cygri> mhausenblas: who is the target audience? WG or wider world?
16:44:18 <cygri> Orri: target audience should be DB people
16:44:36 <cygri> ... can someone outline difference between RIF and datalog?
16:45:10 <cygri> Dan: substantially the same
16:45:48 <cygri> Orri: if target audience would be information architects. they know SQL, but not necessarily datalog
16:46:00 <cygri> ... and not RIF either
16:46:20 <cygri> mhausenblas: isn't this targeting the working group?
16:46:41 <cygri> ... surface syntax of the language is something different
16:47:29 <cygri> Dan: we should agree on our internal foundations. so internal facing documents with small audience can help
16:48:07 <cygri> ericP: strong vocabulary also helps the outside to talk about our mappings. write papers about it etc 
16:48:23 <cygri> Dan: let's do something that makes us happy
16:48:32 <cygri> ericP: do you want to go rec track?
16:48:50 <cygri> s/ericP/mhausenblas/
16:49:45 <juansequeda> Zakim, mute me
16:49:45 <Zakim> juansequeda should now be muted
16:49:57 <cygri> ericP: section 2 is informal description of the transformation
16:50:03 <cygri> ... section 3 defines notation
16:50:57 <cygri> ... section 4 defines relational model and rdf model
16:51:24 <cygri> ... are constraints (pk etc) usually in the relation or in the header?
16:52:48 <juansequeda> Zakim, unmute me
16:52:48 <Zakim> juansequeda should no longer be muted
16:53:23 <Souri> foreign key is defined with the relation
16:53:56 <Souri> q+
16:54:51 <cygri> juansequeda: creating the instances from the DB is usually trivial
16:55:01 <cygri> ... but you have to create the ontology first
16:55:03 <cygri> q+
16:55:25 <cygri> juansequeda: we have this all in our paper
16:55:39 <cygri> ... once we have the ontology, getting the instances is just 2-3 datalog rules probably
16:55:43 <mhausenblas> q?
16:56:56 <cygri> ericP: if we say, "this relational schema implies that ontology", i don't see how that tells us everything we need for translating the instances
16:56:56 <alexdeleon> q+
16:57:22 <cygri> juansequeda: in what you have now, the ontology is implicit
16:57:38 <cygri> ... the properties have domain and range, you just don't state them explicitly
16:57:45 <cygri> ericP: happy to have that
16:58:14 <mhausenblas> q?
16:58:40 <cygri> Dan: local ontology has the contents of the database catalog
16:59:12 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:59:41 <Angela> Angela has joined #RDB2RDF
16:59:56 <cygri> Souri: translating relational schema to rdf, first thing is to generate rdf schema. it's implicit.
17:00:05 <juansequeda> q+
17:00:21 <cygri> ... every column becomes datatype prop, every fk becomes obj prop
17:00:40 <cygri> ... that should be included
17:00:47 <juansequeda> +1 to Souri
17:00:48 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
17:00:51 <mhausenblas> q?
17:01:24 <ericP> cygri: i'm trying to understand what you're trying to capture in the local ontology (directed at dan and juan)
17:01:47 <ericP> ... i beleive that the local ontology misses some stuff in the data semantics
17:02:08 <ericP> ... not sure this is needed for the direct graph defn
17:02:24 <ericP> ... not sure that re-stating the constraints is necessary
17:02:28 <mhausenblas> ack alexdeleon 
17:02:37 <ericP> ... is the goal to state the constraints or just the data?
17:02:45 <cygri> cygri: are we trying to translate the data to rdf? or are we trying to translate the constraints?
17:02:58 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
17:02:59 <mhausenblas> q?
17:02:59 <Souri> direct mapping (in a sentence): table => class, column => datatype property, foreign-key constraint => object property
17:03:15 <cygri> alexdeleon: why not generate a default mapping from the schema, rather than an rdf graph?
17:03:22 <mhausenblas> Michael: juansequeda's comments will be last; closing queue now
17:04:05 <cygri> juanseqeuda: people often are asking for the ontology on the d2r list, people need this
17:04:27 <cygri> ericP: that doesn't mean we should do it here
17:05:27 <cygri> Dan: whenever i write something in OWL, it has a representation in RDF
17:06:30 <cygri> ... it would be conevneint to have machinery on the OWL level to be able to operate on things
17:06:49 <cygri> ... should we make everything explicit with OWL if we can?
17:07:33 <Souri> The generated RDF schema has to be exposed to the SPARQL query writer, otherwise no one can write a meaningful query.
17:07:42 <cygri> ... if you don't want to read the OWL definitions, then you don't have to, just interpret it as RDF
17:07:44 <juansequeda> +1 Souri
17:08:01 <juansequeda> and also the need to map it to other ontologies if needed
17:08:49 <Zakim> -whalb
17:08:51 <Zakim> -Seema
17:08:52 <Zakim> -orri
17:08:54 <cygri> meeting adjourned
17:09:01 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:09:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/08-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas