IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-06-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:27:39 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
01:06:40 [oedipus]
MikeSmith, rrsagent is still running - i presume it is ok to dismiss it?
01:07:38 [MikeSmith]
oedipus, yep
01:07:45 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
15:00:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:00:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-irc
15:00:31 [JF_]
Morning Jon - on my agenda is to contact you re: educause
15:00:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:00:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:34 [trackbot]
Date: 03 June 2010
15:00:45 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:00:45 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:51 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:00:51 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike'
15:01:07 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:01:10 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike'
15:01:38 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:09 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, MikeSmith
15:02:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jongunderson, MikeSmith, JF_, oedipus, davidb, JF, trackbot
15:02:26 [oedipus]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0010.html
15:03:01 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG
15:03:01 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:03:05 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:03:05 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
15:03:34 [MikeSmith]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0010.html
15:03:40 [MikeSmith]
chair: Mike
15:04:35 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
15:05:12 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:05:12 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:05:14 [Zakim]
+Janina
15:05:52 [Zakim]
+??P30
15:06:19 [jongunderson]
zakim, +??P30 is Jon Gunderson
15:06:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+??P30 is Jon Gunderson', jongunderson
15:06:29 [jongunderson]
zakim, +??P30 is jongunderson
15:06:29 [Zakim]
sorry, jongunderson, I do not recognize a party named '+??P30'
15:06:37 [jongunderson]
zakim, ??P30 is jongunderson
15:06:37 [Zakim]
+jongunderson; got it
15:07:01 [Gez]
Gez has joined #html-a11y
15:07:56 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jongunderson
15:08:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.307.aacc
15:08:25 [MikeSmith]
scribe: jongunderson
15:08:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:08:41 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper.a
15:08:42 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:09:00 [Zakim]
+Rich
15:09:16 [jongunderson]
MS: First think we want to do is check the open action items
15:09:21 [MichaelC]
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15:09:30 [oedipus]
i/MS: first think/TOPIC: Action Item Review
15:09:42 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/overdue
15:09:48 [Marco_Ranon]
Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:09:49 [jongunderson]
MC: I am in now I can walk the..
15:09:52 [jongunderson]
MS: Ok
15:09:53 [Zakim]
+??P34
15:10:08 [oedipus]
action-20?
15:10:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-03 -- OPEN
15:10:08 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20
15:10:12 [jongunderson]
MC: Action 20 is on wendy
15:10:19 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:10:25 [jongunderson]
MS: Wendy is not here
15:10:42 [jongunderson]
MC: This is related to tables, headers I would assume
15:10:53 [jongunderson]
JS: I thnk we are fairly open on it
15:11:03 [MichaelC]
action-20 due 17 June
15:11:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element due date now 17 June
15:11:04 [jongunderson]
MC: SHould we extend the date by a few weeks
15:11:06 [jongunderson]
JS: Yes
15:11:09 [Zakim]
+ +0207388aadd
15:11:11 [jongunderson]
MC: I will extend
15:11:15 [Marco_Ranon]
Sorry for the delay.
15:11:38 [jongunderson]
MC: GR, MC, Cynthia and Mike have actions, but they are not due yet, they should be pinged
15:11:46 [jongunderson]
MS: Is that it for open action items?
15:11:49 [jongunderson]
MC: Yes
15:11:54 [jongunderson]
MS: Reports from sub teams
15:12:06 [jongunderson]
MS: Canvas?
15:12:27 [jongunderson]
RS: I have another proposal out that address the Apple comments
15:12:58 [jongunderson]
RS: One of the features from Apple for focus areas create a rectangle, none support the rectangle, so it would be more work
15:13:15 [jongunderson]
RS: Some people wanted to avoid feature creep, I hope we vote on it monday
15:13:33 [jongunderson]
RS: As far as CMN proposal I have not seen it, JS have you seen it?
15:13:37 [jongunderson]
JS: not a thing
15:13:59 [jongunderson]
RS: The canvas will not be the road blocker for HTML 5
15:14:12 [Zakim]
-Matt
15:14:14 [oedipus]
s/MS: Reports from sub teams/TOPIC: Sub Team Reports/
15:14:23 [jongunderson]
RS:That is not a negative statement, I just know they have alot of work to do
15:15:04 [jongunderson]
RS: James added additional requirements, I addressed most of them but some are not needed right now, some things were nice but not required
15:15:18 [jongunderson]
MS: ARIA Mapping?
15:15:46 [cyns]
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15:15:48 [jongunderson]
RS: I have attended the meetings, we went through the new HTML elements like DETAILS and TIME widget
15:16:04 [Zakim]
+Matt
15:16:39 [jongunderson]
RS: For the 2th for the changes in the HML5 spec we will provide a second document that will provide the API mapping, alot of the AT manuafactures have not implemented all the controls
15:17:09 [jongunderson]
RS: There may be problems with implementations that require chanes
15:17:24 [jongunderson]
MS: It is a recursive process to refine the spec
15:17:39 [jongunderson]
RS: Give that caveat we shoudl be ready by the 24
15:18:00 [jongunderson]
CS: I agree, the mapping table will be in a draft form, with some introductory text
15:18:08 [jongunderson]
RS: It is more than we promised to do
15:18:19 [oedipus]
media minutes 2010-06-02: http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02/html-a11y-minutes.html
15:18:23 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
15:18:26 [oedipus]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/ Review of Media Accessibility Requirements survey
15:18:30 [jongunderson]
MS: Media?
15:18:30 [oedipus]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/results results of Review of Media Accessibility Requirements survey
15:18:51 [jongunderson]
JF: We had a lengthy discussion about the survey and what we were trying to do
15:19:03 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:19:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:19:12 [jongunderson]
JF: We were trying to get to the user requirements without the technical issues
15:19:15 [oedipus]
GJR reminds others that if form too long, there is a text alternative: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/text
15:19:17 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:19:47 [jongunderson]
JF: We really need to get the user requirements and there was not alot of response, we extended the response time to Monday
15:20:10 [jongunderson]
JF: We need to get as many responses as possible
15:20:31 [jongunderson]
JF: We need this infomration to make sure the technology specs will meet the user needs
15:21:00 [jongunderson]
JF: There are some questions of when we use "should" and "must" in the technical specs
15:21:33 [jongunderson]
JF: Some technologies cannot handle multiple streams
15:22:05 [jongunderson]
JF: I encourage people to go throuh the survey it will take 30-40 minutes
15:22:11 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:22:25 [jongunderson]
JF: This is the primary focus, we cannot move on until we get this part done
15:22:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:22:48 [jongunderson]
MS: I encourage people to respond, please take some time today or tomorrow to do that
15:23:01 [oedipus]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0007.html Copy to Clipboard - ambush and abuse by javascript (post to www-tag by Tim Berners-Lee)
15:23:03 [jongunderson]
MS: We have Gez today to talk about Drag and Drop
15:23:13 [jongunderson]
MS: I will post some links on the subject
15:23:28 [oedipus]
i/MS: We have Gez/TOPIC: Drag and Drop/
15:23:47 [oedipus]
compare: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html#dnd
15:23:48 [jongunderson]
Gez: I would like to compare HTML5 and ARIA, there are three issues, 2 trival and one serious
15:23:57 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html HTML5 Drag and Drop Model (summary from Gez)
15:24:05 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html
15:24:37 [jongunderson]
Gez: Difference is include information on whether something is being dragged, it is relatively straight forward to add to HTML 5
15:24:52 [oedipus]
i/MS: First think/TOPIC: Action Item Review/
15:25:01 [MikeSmith]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices: Drag-and-Drop Support
15:25:16 [jongunderson]
Gez: The Drop effect attribute, in HTML5 does not have values "execute" and "popup"
15:25:18 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:25:34 [oedipus]
verbiage currently in HTML5 draft: "On media without a pointing device, the user would probably have to explicitly indicate his intention to perform a drag-and-drop operation, stating what he wishes to drag and what he wishes to drop, respectively."
15:25:42 [jongunderson]
Gez: These have more to do with functionality than accessibility
15:26:29 [jongunderson]
Gez: i was not able to make a drag and drop example in a way that the browser new was going on, maybe it is a browser implementation issue
15:26:30 [MikeSmith]
-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html "Drag and drop" section of HTML5 spec
15:27:26 [jongunderson]
Gez: Couple of events that are needed for "mouseover" keyboard, if they were implemented as keyboard you would be thinking "onfocus"
15:27:47 [jongunderson]
Gez: Earlier on in discussion there was talk about "copy and Paste" function
15:28:03 [oedipus]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0007.html Copy to Clipboard - ambush and abuse by javascript (post to www-tag by Tim Berners-Lee)
15:28:04 [jongunderson]
Gez: What is the effect of the paste
15:28:24 [MikeSmith]
q?
15:28:27 [jongunderson]
Gez: I am not sure why it was reoved from the spec
15:28:52 [JF_]
(JF thinks re-adding Copy and Paste API would be a good thing...)
15:29:05 [jongunderson]
Gez: the end of this it would be good, for there would be a group of people to come up with a recommendation on an input device independent way
15:29:30 [jongunderson]
Gez: Anyone with experience with drag and drop, we could get together and come up with a set of recomendations
15:29:49 [jongunderson]
MS: Ok, so, is there anyone on the call who could help Gez with this?
15:30:10 [oedipus]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/clipboard-apis/ Clipboard Operations for the Web: Copy Paste and Drag and Drop (November 2008)
15:30:20 [jongunderson]
Gez: If we could use the paste function we could use the drop effect
15:30:47 [jongunderson]
RS: The popup is going tobe really important, if you need to make a decision
15:31:34 [jongunderson]
RS: Some of the functions were only available using th emouse, will there be any visible indication when people are using the keyboard
15:32:21 [jongunderson]
Gez: There are certain events that allow you to do this, but not with the keyboard, the drag over needs a keyboard equivalent, ....
15:32:52 [jongunderson]
RS: Sounds like you want the ability to trigger the drag over
15:33:01 [jongunderson]
RS: What are you thinking?
15:33:33 [oedipus]
regrets: Jim Allan, Denis Boudreau, Kelly Ford, Ben Caldwell, Martin Kliehm, Silvia Pfeiffer, Leif
15:33:46 [jongunderson]
Gez: If we have the equivalent of a copy and paste; I don't understand the drag over event, you might update things as you drag over an area
15:34:15 [jongunderson]
Gez: My main concern is this "dragover" event, why does a developer need to do that?
15:34:37 [jongunderson]
CS: What about a sighted user, so you know where to drop something
15:34:59 [jongunderson]
Gez: That does make sense, but if you were a keyboard user you would gather your thoughts....
15:35:13 [jongunderson]
Gez: You will never really raise that event with the keyboartd
15:35:53 [jongunderson]
MS: I am wondering if it woul dmake sense to post a message to the HTML5 working group to get clarification on the usage of these events
15:36:02 [jongunderson]
Gez: I think that is a good next plan
15:36:22 [jongunderson]
RS We talked about using the clip board, what about moving by reference
15:36:41 [jongunderson]
Gez: that would be the result of sepecting the target, like in ARIA
15:37:05 [jongunderson]
RS: It sounds like there are some implementation issues or the use of ARIA to supplement
15:37:23 [jongunderson]
RS: DO you want to use ARIA or get HTML5 integration
15:37:27 [oedipus]
plus 1 to solve natively and not use ARIA to plug hole (ARIA should be used only when hole cannot be plugged natively)
15:37:53 [jongunderson]
Gez: there is not that much that needs to be added to HTML 5, the way it is currently setup is using the mouse
15:38:20 [jongunderson]
Gez; the current spec is very complicated to use drag and drop
15:38:45 [jongunderson]
RS: There is an action item on how to do this with a keyboard
15:39:02 [jongunderson]
RS: If we identify holes we can take them back to the HTML 5 working group
15:39:22 [jongunderson]
RS: The mousedrag over needs to be done with the keyboard, this is a show stopper
15:40:02 [jongunderson]
Gez: All of the events do not specify the input device, but the dragover seems like it can only be done with the keyboard
15:40:27 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minuted
15:40:27 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuted', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:40:29 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:40:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:40:42 [jongunderson]
RS: It sounds like you want a navigate too function, if you can write up how a browser manufacture could do this and identify the holes
15:40:49 [jongunderson]
Gez: that makes sense
15:41:06 [jongunderson]
Gez: That sounds like a good plan, is there a deadline
15:41:17 [jongunderson]
MS: We do not have an issue int he HTML 5 tracker
15:41:36 [jongunderson]
MS: We have been driving this from the task force side, there is not HTML5 deadline
15:41:49 [jongunderson]
MC: We have inforstate, we have not provided
15:42:04 [jongunderson]
RS: Tehy are asking us for how do you make this accessible with the keyboard
15:42:39 [oedipus]
a really big thanks to Gez for herding these cats for the TF!
15:42:39 [jongunderson]
MS: there is not hard dealine, but there is a sense an urgency, we would like to have this resolved before last call, how about 3 weeks
15:42:43 [jongunderson]
Gez: I will try
15:43:15 [jongunderson]
MS: Is there any help you need form the task force? We can send a message out to try to get you some help and what you need.
15:43:29 [jongunderson]
Gez: I would appreciate some help if someone can
15:43:42 [jongunderson]
MS: JS and MC?
15:44:08 [jongunderson]
JS: I think this has been a useful discussion, it does not seem we are ready to write a change propsoal
15:44:22 [jongunderson]
MS: Gez will be drafting the change proposal
15:44:33 [jongunderson]
JS: Thank you Gez for coming to this call
15:44:44 [jongunderson]
Gez: Your welcome
15:45:17 [jongunderson]
MS: Every week laurie sends out a report on resolved and rejected bugs, we usually do not have time to review
15:45:38 [MikeSmith]
Topic: triage of Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report
15:45:50 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0205.html
15:46:26 [jongunderson]
MS: Is there anyone willing to help with triage before this meeting to see what is a priority for the group to discuss
15:47:04 [jongunderson]
MS: What we can try to do today and see what we should take actio on
15:48:04 [jongunderson]
MS: I think we should add the task force keyword?
15:48:08 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9817
15:48:15 [jongunderson]
MC: I am still trying to get oriented to the bugs
15:48:29 [MikeSmith]
bug from Rich: Details element Focus problem
15:48:32 [jongunderson]
MS: One by RS about the process for dealing with these types of issues
15:48:45 [jongunderson]
MS: A11YTF with out an underscore
15:49:11 [oedipus]
s/MS: Every week laurie/MS: MS: Every week Laura/
15:49:16 [jongunderson]
MC: The other thing to do is to put the Task force ont he CC list
15:49:41 [jongunderson]
MS: I am not sure what 9804 is about
15:49:50 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9775
15:49:56 [jongunderson]
MS: 9975
15:50:06 [oedipus]
SteveF to file bug on problem reported in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0023.html
15:50:51 [jongunderson]
JF: The next 3 are all related 9773, 9774 9775. These are more like question, we do not really have answers
15:51:02 [MichaelC]
looks like the task force email was already added to these bugs; so we just have to mark a11ytf keyword on the ones we're tracking
15:51:22 [MichaelC]
note, I think we shouldn't have the task force email on bugs until they get the a11ytf
15:51:27 [jongunderson]
JF: What is the difference between sub tiltes and captions? There are differences, but not usually from the technology perspective.
15:52:10 [jongunderson]
MS: My inclination on these is to get a response from hixy, it seems like they are more clarification that substantive issues
15:52:53 [jongunderson]
JF: I don't have an objection, 9773 is been viewed as a technical question, but I am not sure it is, I will keep track of them
15:53:16 [oedipus]
q+ to ask if we are actually planning on following up on Paul Cotton's idea that we file a bug against the HTML5 spec asking that -- where accessibility features have been removed or for which superior replacements have not yet been identified -- the a11y features of HTML 4.01 be restored
15:53:22 [jongunderson]
JS: I think the media sub group could discuss the merits to have separate tracks for captions and sub titltes
15:53:49 [jongunderson]
JF: We are talking about deinitiions, and not just technical
15:54:23 [jongunderson]
JF: Some of the questions need to clarify the technical and definitional issues of the issue
15:54:45 [jongunderson]
JS: The last one is a concern from an alanog broadcast medium, thats legacy
15:54:58 [jongunderson]
MS: This is something the media sub grou can keep track of
15:55:25 [jongunderson]
JS: Maybe it does get the A11YTF keyboard there
15:55:38 [jongunderson]
MS: They already have the media keyboard
15:55:59 [jongunderson]
MC: We should also have the TF keyboard even if it is being worked in the sub groups
15:56:09 [jongunderson]
MS: Add the TF to the three issues
15:56:14 [oedipus]
q?
15:56:45 [jongunderson]
MSL There is another issue that Laurie identified, we had a discussion a couple months ago about adding that keyboard
15:57:14 [MikeSmith]
ack oedipus
15:57:14 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask if we are actually planning on following up on Paul Cotton's idea that we file a bug against the HTML5 spec asking that -- where accessibility features
15:57:15 [oedipus]
if we are planning on following up on Paul Cotton's idea that we file a bug against the HTML5 spec asking that -- where accessibility features have been removed or for which superior replacements have not yet been identified -- the a11y features of HTML 4.01 be restored: should it happen before or after heartbeat draft published?
15:57:17 [Zakim]
... have been removed or for which superior replacements have not yet been identified -- the a11y features of HTML 4.01 be restored
15:57:18 [jongunderson]
MS: I am not sure it is something we need to do in marking, I am not sure we should let anyone add the keyboard
15:57:53 [jongunderson]
GR: I have a strategic question, that accessibility HTML 4.01 features should be restored ...
15:58:13 [jongunderson]
MS: Unless we are asking for a delay, we will have to waite until after
15:58:24 [JF_]
+1 to that Greg
15:58:51 [jongunderson]
GR: I want this as a safety net back in, i will do some more work on this and have "this should be retained until"
15:59:01 [jongunderson]
MS: That owuld be good to have on the wiki
15:59:10 [MichaelC]
q+ to say TF members can recommend bugs we take on formally, but +1 to MS that we need a group decision to do so
15:59:40 [jongunderson]
JF: The use of the A11YTF keyboard maybe we should do this part in our weekly calls, make this part of the weekly call, right after actin items
15:59:50 [MikeSmith]
ack MichaelC
15:59:50 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say TF members can recommend bugs we take on formally, but +1 to MS that we need a group decision to do so
16:00:16 [jongunderson]
JF: the keyword is applied in the weekly call, we have clear an open forum, peple who have an issue can join the call
16:00:37 [jongunderson]
MS: We could also do this on the mailing list, JS and I could send a message to the list serv
16:01:09 [jongunderson]
MC: I think it is a good thing to formally adopt and issue, people should vote for bugs
16:01:26 [jongunderson]
MS: That is as much we can do for today, any other business
16:01:35 [jongunderson]
MS: We are on for next week at the same time
16:01:50 [jongunderson]
MS: ANy voluneteers to scribe next week
16:02:02 [Zakim]
-Matt
16:02:03 [MikeSmith]
[adjourned]
16:02:04 [Zakim]
- +1.650.862.aaaa
16:02:05 [Zakim]
- +1.408.307.aacc
16:02:07 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:02:07 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:08 [Zakim]
MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:02:08 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:09 [Zakim]
- +67079aabb
16:02:09 [Zakim]
-MikeSmith
16:02:11 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
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-Rich
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- +0207388aadd
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-??P34
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-Michael_Cooper.a
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-jongunderson
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WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, +67079aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Matt, Michael_Cooper, MikeSmith, Janina, jongunderson, +1.408.307.aacc, Rich, +0207388aadd
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16:03:01 [jongunderson]
rrsagent
16:03:06 [jongunderson]
,
16:03:14 [jongunderson]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html jongunderson
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16:31:25 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items