IRC log of sparql on 2010-05-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:35 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:54:35 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/25-sparql-irc

13:54:51 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, this will be sparql

13:54:51 [Zakim]

ok, AxelPolleres, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started

13:55:03 [AndyS]

bglimm, APIs may let you build queries in other ways.

13:55:15 [dcharbon2]

dcharbon2 has joined #sparql

13:55:30 [kasei]

bglimm, early

13:55:39 [bglimm]

ah, ok, but I don't care about that ;-) I only care about what the spec says

13:56:24 [AxelPolleres]

agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-05-25

13:56:29 [AxelPolleres]

chair: Axel Polleres

13:56:39 [NickHumfrey]

zakim, who's muted?

13:56:39 [Zakim]

I see NickHumfrey muted

13:56:56 [AxelPolleres]

regrets: Sandro, chime

13:57:09 [Zakim]

+ +86528aaaa

13:57:10 [pgearon]

pgearon has joined #sparql

13:57:11 [AxelPolleres]

at risk: Alex, Paul

13:57:18 [bglimm]

Zakim, +86528aaaa is me

13:57:18 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

13:57:26 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

13:57:26 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

13:58:12 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres

13:58:22 [Zakim]

+pgearon

13:58:28 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

13:58:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see NickHumfrey (muted), AndyS, Ivan, bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, pgearon

13:58:39 [AxelPolleres]

welcome, Nick!

13:58:46 [MattPerry]

MattPerry has joined #sparql

13:59:01 [Zakim]

+kasei

13:59:13 [kasei]

Zakim, mute me

13:59:13 [Zakim]

kasei should now be muted

13:59:35 [SteveH_]

SteveH_ has joined #sparql

14:00:04 [Zakim]

+MattPerry

14:00:27 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:00:27 [Zakim]

On the phone I see NickHumfrey, AndyS, Ivan, bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, pgearon, kasei (muted), MattPerry

14:00:33 [Zakim]

+OlivierCorby

14:00:41 [Zakim]

+dcharbon2

14:01:19 [Zakim]

+mischat

14:01:29 [SteveH]

Zakim, mischat is [Garlik]

14:01:29 [Zakim]

+[Garlik]; got it

14:01:38 [SteveH]

Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily SteveH

14:01:38 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:01:43 [AndyS]

I can scribe.

14:02:06 [AndyS]

but I'll let Steve if he wants to :-)

14:02:14 [AndyS]

scribe: Andy Seaborne

14:02:20 [AndyS]

scribenick: AndyS

14:02:21 [AxelPolleres]

scribe: AndyS

14:02:37 [Zakim]

+souri

14:02:43 [AxelPolleres]

scribe next tim sandro

14:02:50 [AndyS]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-05-25

14:02:56 [souri]

souri has joined #sparql

14:03:01 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:03:01 [Zakim]

On the phone I see NickHumfrey, AndyS, Ivan, bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, pgearon, kasei (muted), MattPerry, OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, SteveH, souri

14:03:05 [Zakim]

+Lee_Feigenbaum

14:03:07 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-05-18

14:03:22 [AndyS]

Regrets: chimezie, sandro

14:03:41 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-05-18

14:03:44 [AndyS]

regrets: +AlexPassant

14:03:56 [AndyS]

Next meeting: 1 June

14:04:08 [ivan]

me

14:04:08 [pgearon]

I'll be there

14:04:10 [LeeF]

me

14:04:11 [MattPerry]

I will be there

14:04:12 [SteveH]

I'm not going

14:04:16 [AndyS]

Regrets for next time: AndyS (unless it's raining a lot)

14:04:16 [LeeF]

Would like to know who can make the panel, in particular

14:04:23 [souri]

me too

14:04:23 [bglimm]

I'm not going

14:04:24 [AndyS]

AndyS @semtech

14:04:24 [AxelPolleres]

me unfotrunately not going

14:05:24 [LeeF]

2pm on Wednesday

14:05:31 [AxelPolleres]

must be somewhere tthere: http://www.semantic-conference.com/2010/

14:05:36 [LeeF]

Right now it says:

14:05:37 [LeeF]

Lee Feigenbaum, Cambridge Semantics Inc

14:05:37 [LeeF]

Andy Seaborne, Talis

14:05:37 [LeeF]

David S. Newman, Wells Fargo

14:05:37 [LeeF]

Ivan Herman, World Wide Web Consortium

14:05:37 [LeeF]

Paul Gearon, Fedora Commons, Inc

14:05:47 [LeeF]

I'll check with David, who hasn't participated in a while

14:06:10 [LeeF]

I'll add Souri & Matt if you'd like to join the panel?

14:06:30 [MattPerry]

Sure. Thanks Lee

14:06:31 [souri]

sure

14:06:37 [LeeF]

thanks

14:06:53 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments

14:07:21 [AxelPolleres]

topic: liaisons

14:07:57 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/

14:08:05 [AxelPolleres]

RDB2RDF docs probably next week published

14:08:35 [AndyS]

Topic:Publishing documents

14:09:02 [LeeF]

I'll let people know if I need anything from them

14:09:03 [AndyS]

LeeF: working on publishing docs

14:09:08 [LeeF]

ack me

14:09:40 [bglimm]

We also didn't decide on the entailments doc yet if I remeber correctly

14:09:42 [AndyS]

LeeF: need to resolve to publish the update doc as there have been changes

14:09:57 [bglimm]

Zakim, unmute me

14:09:58 [Zakim]

bglimm should no longer be muted

14:10:05 [AndyS]

s/update doc/update language doc/

14:10:14 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:10:14 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:10:35 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Update as a Working Draft

14:10:45 [LeeF]

Seconded

14:10:46 [bglimm]

+1

14:10:46 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:10:47 [ivan]

1

14:10:53 [souri]

+1

14:10:53 [MattPerry]

+1

14:10:54 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:10:59 [AndyS]

+1

14:11:13 [NickHumfrey]

+1

14:11:31 [pgearon]

SPARQL 1.1 Update Revision 1.47

14:11:33 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Update as a Working Draft

14:11:46 [bglimm]

Zakim, unmute me

14:11:46 [Zakim]

bglimm should no longer be muted

14:11:49 [AndyS]

Entailment doc.

14:12:07 [AndyS]

bglimm: some changes this week, ready to go

14:12:10 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:12:10 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:12:10 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Entailment as a Working Draft

14:12:14 [bglimm]

+1

14:12:18 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:12:19 [pgearon]

+1

14:12:21 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:12:22 [souri]

+1

14:12:24 [NickHumfrey]

+1

14:12:26 [MattPerry]

+1

14:12:31 [ivan]

+1

14:12:39 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Entailment as a Working Draft

14:13:58 [AndyS]

Topic: More Admin

14:14:20 [AndyS]

AxelPolleres: Welcome to Nick Humfrey of the BBC

14:14:49 [AndyS]

NickHumfrey: music, /progammes, DBPedia.

14:15:15 [AndyS]

... here to see what the WG is up and how it would fit in the BBC.

14:15:37 [AndyS]

Topic: Lee's Initial Issues List

14:15:41 [AxelPolleres]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0166.html

14:16:21 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-8 with the consensus that subqueries share the same RDF dataset as their parent query, and that FROM and FROM NAMED clauses are not permitted in subqueries.

14:16:35 [souri]

+1

14:16:41 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/8

14:17:36 [SteveH]

+1

14:17:44 [kasei]

+1

14:17:46 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:17:46 [MattPerry]

+1

14:17:46 [AndyS]

+1

14:17:47 [bglimm]

+1

14:17:52 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:18:00 [ivan]

+1

14:18:02 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-8 with the consensus that subqueries share the same RDF dataset as their parent query, and that FROM and FROM NAMED clauses are not permitted in subqueries.

14:18:12 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ISSUE-8

14:18:12 [trackbot]

ISSUE-8 What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? closed

14:18:29 [LeeF]

ISSUE-8: RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-8 with the consensus that subqueries share the same RDF dataset as their parent query, and that FROM and FROM NAMED clauses are not permitted in subqueries.

14:18:29 [trackbot]

ISSUE-8 What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? notes added

14:18:44 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-14 with the consensus that SPARQL 1.1 defines the following aggregates: COUNT, SUM, MIN, MAX, AVG, GROUP_CONCAT, and SAMPLE.

14:19:00 [SteveH]

+1

14:19:01 [kasei]

+1

14:19:04 [MattPerry]

+1

14:19:05 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:19:08 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:19:10 [dcharbon2]

+1

14:19:12 [souri]

+1

14:19:13 [pgearon]

+1

14:19:17 [ivan]

1

14:19:20 [AndyS]

(and custom aggregates)

14:19:24 [bglimm]

+1

14:19:56 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-14 with the consensus that SPARQL 1.1 defines the following aggregates: COUNT, SUM, MIN, MAX, AVG, GROUP_CONCAT, and SAMPLE

14:20:04 [LeeF]

ISSUE-14: RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-14 with the consensus that SPARQL 1.1 defines the following aggregates: COUNT, SUM, MIN, MAX, AVG, GROUP_CONCAT, and SAMPLE

14:20:05 [trackbot]

ISSUE-14 Which aggregates to include notes added

14:20:08 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ISSUE-14

14:20:08 [trackbot]

ISSUE-14 Which aggregates to include closed

14:21:01 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/1

14:22:02 [AxelPolleres]

ISSUE-15 -- I think we have consensus here around custom aggregate

14:22:03 [AxelPolleres]

snamed with URIs, with no keywords, allowing the DISTINCT modifier, and

14:22:03 [AxelPolleres]

allowing the parameterized syntax introduced for GROUP_CONCAT, but I'm

14:22:03 [AxelPolleres]

not positve and don't see this spelled out yet in the editor's draft, so

14:22:03 [AxelPolleres]

didn't want to propose to resolve the issue yet.

14:22:35 [AndyS]

q+

14:22:54 [kasei]

I think that was Nicholas when he joined the call.

14:22:59 [AxelPolleres]

ack AndyS

14:23:41 [SteveH]

q+

14:23:45 [LeeF]

ack ??P0

14:24:29 [NickHumfrey]

queue-

14:24:35 [AxelPolleres]

AndyS: rather would go for simple spolution not allowing parameterised syntax in custom aggregates

14:24:44 [NickHumfrey]

queue- ?P0

14:24:44 [AxelPolleres]

ack SteveH

14:25:09 [AxelPolleres]

SteveH: seconded what Steve said

14:25:10 [SteveH]

loud typing noise

14:25:11 [AndyS]

SteveH: agree - complexity is not justified

14:25:18 [NickHumfrey]

arg - sorry. Yes, P0 was me. Trying to learn all this!

14:25:36 [LeeF]

not me!

14:26:00 [AxelPolleres]

strawpoll: prohibit parameterised syntax for custom aggregates?

14:26:07 [kasei]

0

14:26:09 [AndyS]

AxelPolleres: anyone in favour of named parameters to custom aggregates?

14:26:13 [souri]

+1

14:26:20 [AndyS]

prohibit

14:26:23 [OlivierCorby]

0

14:26:25 [pgearon]

prohibit

14:26:29 [SteveH]

prohibit

14:26:31 [MattPerry]

prohibit

14:26:36 [pgearon]

+1

14:26:37 [NickHumfrey]

prohibit

14:26:38 [souri]

prohibit

14:26:40 [bglimm]

prohibit

14:28:16 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: close ISSUE-15 with consensus around custom aggregates named with URIs, with no keywords, allowing the DISTINCT modifier, and disallowing the parameterized syntax introduced for GROUP_CONCAT for custom aggregates

14:28:34 [SteveH]

+1

14:28:38 [MattPerry]

+1

14:28:43 [bglimm]

+1

14:28:46 [AndyS]

+1

14:28:50 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:28:55 [NickHumfrey]

+1

14:28:56 [dcharbon2]

+1

14:28:57 [souri]

+1

14:28:59 [pgearon]

+1

14:29:17 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: close ISSUE-15 with consensus around custom aggregates named with URIs, with no keywords, allowing the DISTINCT modifier, and disallowing the parameterized syntax introduced for GROUP_CONCAT for custom aggregates

14:29:27 [AxelPolleres]

trackbot, close ISSUE-15

14:29:27 [trackbot]

ISSUE-15 Extensibility of aggregate functions closed

14:30:03 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16

14:30:04 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16 : Dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes

14:31:44 [kasei]

so what is the current status right now?

14:31:50 [kasei]

undefined over mixed datatypes?

14:32:11 [LeeF]

I want to close this, but I would like to understand what's in the document currently, too

14:33:09 [SteveH]

+1 to AndyS

14:33:12 [AxelPolleres]

may be safer to keep the issue open until steve went over the last f2f resolutions with scrutinity

14:33:31 [AndyS]

AndyS: will want to discuss presentation of design *after* the next publication.

14:34:18 [AndyS]

LeeF: Next step is what?

14:34:29 [AndyS]

SteveH: examples to add

14:35:22 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: steveh to give examples that highlight possible ambiguities in the resolutions from last f2f concerning ISSUE-16

14:35:22 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-247 - Give examples that highlight possible ambiguities in the resolutions from last f2f concerning ISSUE-16 [on Steve Harris - due 2010-06-01].

14:36:01 [AndyS]

Topic: Issues and Scedule

14:36:08 [AndyS]

Topic: Issues and Schedule

14:36:24 [AndyS]

Property path telecon on Thursday

14:37:03 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0243.html

14:37:16 [LeeF]

I need to reserve zakim

14:37:21 [LeeF]

ivan, can you help with that?

14:37:28 [AndyS]

10:00am EDT / 15:00 GMTDT for up to 2 hours

14:37:42 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: leef to reserve zakim for property path TC

14:37:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-248 - Reserve zakim for property path TC [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-06-01].

14:37:43 [ivan]

you can do it ad hoc, but I can also send a request if you want

14:37:43 [AndyS]

Can we just use this channel?

14:37:57 [LeeF]

yes, let's use #sparql like normal

14:38:14 [ivan]

'' /invite zakim; zakim, space for 10? "

14:39:10 [AxelPolleres]

+ "/invite rrsagent"

14:40:24 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: axel to check back with Lee on how/when to schedule theother special TCs

14:40:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-249 - Check back with Lee on how/when to schedule theother special TCs [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-06-01].

14:41:20 [AxelPolleres]

topic: http-update-protocol issue

14:41:23 [AxelPolleres]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0238.html

14:41:27 [AndyS]

Topic: discussion on http-update-protocol.

14:41:44 [AndyS]

AxelPolleres: issue is base URI in updates

14:42:28 [AxelPolleres]

"In situations where there is no Base URI in the payload and a graph IRI is

14:42:28 [AxelPolleres]

embedded, the RDF document that represents [AWWW] the networked RDF

14:42:28 [AxelPolleres]

knowledge identified by the embedded graph IRI SHOULD be considered the

14:42:28 [AxelPolleres]

retrieval context (5.1.2) [RFC3986]. Thus, the default base URI is the base

14:42:29 [AxelPolleres]

URI of that RDF document."

14:43:10 [AndyS]

I would need examples to understand that.

14:43:15 [SteveH]

me too

14:44:29 [pgearon]

+q

14:44:42 [pgearon]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/37

14:44:46 [AndyS]

pgearon: Issue 37

14:45:02 [AndyS]

Issue 37 : How does basic federated query interact with SPARQL/Update?

14:45:03 [AxelPolleres]

"How does basic federated query interact with SPARQL/Update?"

14:45:39 [pgearon]

"SPARQL/Update allows the use of SERVICE in the WHERE clause"

14:45:48 [SteveH]

typing noise

14:45:49 [AndyS]

pgearon: can allow in the graph pattern, but should not also do federated change

14:46:22 [AndyS]

Fine in intent.

14:46:29 [SteveH]

q+

14:46:33 [AndyS]

But not in DELETE WHERE please :-)

14:46:36 [pgearon]

q-

14:48:22 [AndyS]

SteveH: complicated case : update calls back to same service

14:49:29 [pgearon]

+1 to allow everything in the WHERE clause that is allowed in SPARQL 1.1

14:50:24 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: steveh to take the discussion on SERVICE in Update to email, highlighting potential problem cases

14:50:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-250 - Take the discussion on SERVICE in Update to email, highlighting potential problem cases [on Steve Harris - due 2010-06-01].

14:51:11 [AndyS]

Chair: Any other business?

14:51:26 [AndyS]

Adjourned

14:51:32 [Zakim]

-SteveH

14:51:32 [bglimm]

bye

14:51:33 [ivan]

zakim, drop me

14:51:33 [Zakim]

Ivan is being disconnected

14:51:33 [Zakim]

-dcharbon2

14:51:35 [Zakim]

-Ivan

14:51:36 [MattPerry]

bye

14:51:37 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

14:51:38 [Zakim]

-souri

14:51:40 [Zakim]

-kasei

14:51:41 [Zakim]

-pgearon

14:51:42 [Zakim]

-OlivierCorby

14:51:43 [Zakim]

-MattPerry

14:51:47 [AndyS]

Please remember the property path call on Thursday.

14:51:47 [Zakim]

-NickHumfrey

14:51:53 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent, make records public

14:51:56 [pgearon]

pgearon has left #sparql

14:51:56 [Zakim]

-Lee_Feigenbaum

14:52:07 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:52:14 [AxelPolleres]

andyS, minutes magic... u or me do it? :-)

14:56:45 [OlivierCorby]

OlivierCorby has left #sparql

14:57:19 [AndyS]

I may not be able to do it until Thursday - travelling tomorrow and no way am I trying using 3G

15:01:00 [LeeF]

RRSAgent, pointer?

15:01:00 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/25-sparql-irc#T15-01-00

15:03:13 [LeeF]

pgearon_, AlexPassant -- I'm going to work on getting SPARQL 1.1 Update pubrlues compliant now -- is what's checked in OK to go?

15:05:45 [AxelPolleres]

no worries, will do the minutes

15:06:26 [kasei]

LeeF: should I remove the old SD doc diff paragraph and commit the new one in its place?

15:07:11 [LeeF]

yes, please

15:07:15 [kasei]

also, (unrelated), my ACTION-235 can be closed.

15:10:19 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

15:10:20 [kasei]

LeeF, ok, the new changes section is committed. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help with the publication.

15:10:48 [AxelPolleres]

hmmm, how to I get CommonScribe to recognise Nick?

15:13:05 [LeeF]

i'm not sure, AxelPolleres - ask sandro

15:13:12 [LeeF]

kasei, ok, I will when I get to the SD doc

15:13:14 [LeeF]

thanks

15:13:18 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-235

15:13:18 [trackbot]

ACTION-235 Review HTTP Uniform Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs closed

15:13:23 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-250

15:13:23 [trackbot]

ACTION-250 Take the discussion on SERVICE in Update to email, highlighting potential problem cases closed

15:25:41 [AxelPolleres]

minutes... http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-05-25

15:35:01 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, bglimm, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM

15:35:04 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:35:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were NickHumfrey, AndyS, Ivan, bglimm, AxelPolleres, pgearon, kasei, MattPerry, OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, SteveH, souri, Lee_Feigenbaum

16:43:33 [LeeF]

pgearon_, AlexPassant, any chance you could write a brief summary of changes since the previous WD?

16:44:49 [LeeF]

I can try based on CVS history

16:54:50 [LeeF]

kasei, FYI I'm going to work on SD now

17:03:05 [AndyS1]

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17:52:43 [pgearon]

pgearon has joined #sparql

18:29:45 [SteveH]

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18:47:18 [LeeF]

yay! finally finished prepping documents and submitted the publication request

19:49:59 [SteveH]

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