IRC log of svg on 2010-05-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:47:59 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

08:47:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc

08:48:01 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

08:48:01 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #svg

08:48:03 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

08:48:03 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

08:48:04 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

08:48:04 [trackbot]

Date: 24 May 2010

08:49:36 [ed]

Zakim, remind me in 8 hours that it's time for dinner

08:49:36 [Zakim]

ok, ed

08:51:59 [ed]

Zakim, this will be SVG WG Belgium F2F day 1 (May 24, 2010)

08:51:59 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ed

09:01:36 [ChrisL]

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09:01:40 [ed]

Focus for the first two days: finish SVG 1.1 F2

09:02:08 [ChrisL]

hey guys i will be a long in a minute, just geting a taxi there from my hotel. sorry to be late

09:02:21 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

09:02:21 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc#T09-02-21

09:06:47 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1

09:07:09 [ChrisL]

what room are you in (or is it signposted)?

09:09:00 [shepazu]

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09:09:10 [ChrisL]

hey guys i will be a long in a minute, just geting a taxi there from my hotel. sorry to be late

09:09:12 [ChrisL]

what room are you in (or is it signposted)?

09:09:57 [ed]

there's a sign outside the door, it's just to the right after you enter

09:10:03 [ChrisL]

thanks

09:10:07 [ChrisL]

see you in a few

09:10:29 [shepazu]

ChrisL: take a right out of the lobby, there's a sign on th wall, it's the Luxemburg room

09:10:37 [ed]

agenda+ ACTION-2676

09:27:44 [ed]

moved ACTION-2386 to SVG 2.0, after discussion with jwatt and pdengler

09:31:32 [shepazu]

AlexD: we're really just starting now

09:32:00 [shepazu]

scribeNick: shepazu

09:32:11 [shepazu]

chair: ed

09:33:01 [pdengler]

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09:34:40 [AlexD]

Thanks shepazu!

09:34:53 [ChrisL]

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09:35:17 [shepazu]

Topic: ACTION-2386

09:35:31 [ed]

zakim, take up agenda 1

09:35:31 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "ACTION-2676" taken up [from ed]

09:37:07 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2676

09:37:25 [jwatt]

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09:37:54 [ed]

changes here: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#SVGDOMOverview

09:41:56 [shepazu]

"Fix the 1.1 second edition wording for values that are accessed where no attribute was provided"

09:42:21 [shepazu]

ed: right now, it's got mixed definitions, I think it should always be 0

09:43:46 [shepazu]

s/right now, it's got mixed definitions, I think it should always be 0/in most cases, you get a 0 value if you get it through the DOM/

09:46:09 [shepazu]

... each attribute has a default value

09:46:37 [shepazu]

... for example, on the svg element, width and height have a default value of '100%'

09:47:27 [shepazu]

... and that is what's returned when you access it though the DOM

09:48:04 [ChrisL]

s/DOM/SVG DOM/

09:48:06 [shepazu]

... but it's not exactly clear in the spec....

09:48:40 [shepazu]

... with the core DOM, getAttribute will give you 'undefined'

09:49:05 [pdengler]

The spec states "If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if a value of '100%' were specified."

09:49:40 [ed]

data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><script>alert(document.documentElement.width.baseVal.value)</script></svg>

09:50:04 [shepazu]

jwatt: but it's not clear what svg.width.baseVal.value should be

09:50:48 [shepazu]

ed: I think it makes more sense to initialize them all to the same value

09:51:13 [shepazu]

pdengler: but it's useful to get and change that value

09:51:58 [shepazu]

ChrisL: ok, it's more clear for width and height, but what about other attributes?

09:52:17 [shepazu]

.... width and height are special cases

09:52:46 [shepazu]

ed: filterRez is an example where it changes

09:53:22 [ed]

s/filterRez/filterRes/

09:53:30 [shepazu]

... and another is text-length, where it depends on the size of the text string

09:53:40 [ed]

s/text-length/textLength/

09:54:18 [shepazu]

ChrisL: width and height are special so that it scales automatically

09:54:50 [shepazu]

jwatt: I think if it's not defined, it should throw an exception

09:55:02 [shepazu]

... we don't want users to get the wrong values

09:57:14 [shepazu]

pdengler: what is the meaning of "the effect is as if"?

10:00:42 [shepazu]

ChrisL: text-length allows an explicit override for text length, in case the actual length isn't correct

10:01:45 [shepazu]

ChrisL: we've got specific cases where a particular default value is defined, but where we haven't done that, we need to we need to define them

10:02:32 [shepazu]

pdengler: the DOM should reflect the default value

10:02:49 [shepazu]

s/DOM/SVG DOM/

10:04:17 [ChrisL]

The core dom has no knowledge of the element and attribute sematics while a specific dom does.

10:04:19 [shepazu]

shepazu: I think it might confuse authors that .getAttribute and .baseVal.value returning different values would be confusing

10:04:46 [shepazu]

ChrisL: but that's why we have the SVG DOM... it adds useful functionality for authors

10:07:21 [shepazu]

ed: when you ask for a text element text-length and there wasn't one specified in the markup, you should get the same value as the SVG DOM function that defines the same value

10:07:28 [ed]

getComputedTextLength

10:09:53 [ed]

myTextElement.textLength.baseVal.value should be the same as myTextElement.getComputedTextLength()

10:10:35 [ChrisL]

for text length, the textLength attribute is an override

10:15:03 [shepazu]

shepazu: is this the long-term change we want?

10:15:42 [shepazu]

ed: yes

10:16:19 [shepazu]

ChrisL: we should include the list in the issue in the spec

10:17:11 [shepazu]

ed: we can say that wherever it's not defined elsewhere, these values should be used

10:21:38 [shepazu]

jwatt: if the filterRes attribute is not set, and you read the value from filterRes attribute value with getAttribute (which will be 0), and set the value, it will disable rendering

10:22:22 [ed]

i'm just checking the changlog, seems I did change it once, to be fully covering all types

10:22:23 [ed]

http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/svgdom.html.diff?r1=1.17&r2=1.18&f=h

10:22:30 [jwatt]

s/with getAttribute/from the filterRes JS property/

10:24:14 [shepazu]

ed: with the textLength, and you change the string, is it changed live?

10:24:43 [shepazu]

ChrisL: yes, unless the value is set explicitly in the markup

10:26:02 [AlexD]

How is that going to work? If textLength becomes the equivalent of getComputedTextLength then fonts need to be instantiated, etc. Doesn't make sense to me.

10:26:26 [ChrisL]

alex, i just said that too

10:26:36 [shepazu]

(bad scribing)

10:26:38 [AlexD]

OK, sorry.

10:26:57 [ChrisL]

well, you couldn't hear me from there :)

10:27:02 [ChrisL]

i was agreeing with you

10:27:12 [pdengler]

If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if a value of '100%' were specified.

10:27:18 [jwatt]

the spec says "If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if the author's computation exactly matched the value calculated by the user agent"

10:27:44 [shepazu]

ed: but percentages are relative to the viewport

10:28:31 [ed]

break for lunch

10:28:47 [AlexD]

Lucky I have the BBQ on, enjoy...

10:30:10 [ChrisL]

problem is we want a default value that says "no scaling" and the value is a length, so it needs to be number, and 100% is relative to the viewport so won't work

10:30:19 [ChrisL]

and "non" won't work either

10:30:27 [ChrisL]

ok, lunch

11:39:38 [jwatt]

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11:47:03 [ChrisL]

back from lunch

11:50:22 [ed]

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11:56:20 [ed]

myTextElm.textContent ="mystring";

11:56:21 [ed]

var foo = myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.baseVal.value

11:56:33 [ed]

myTextElm.textContent ="mystring updated with more text";

11:56:51 [ed]

myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.value = foo;

11:57:02 [ed]

what value does 'foo' have?

11:57:57 [ed]

s/baseVal.baseVal/baseVal/

11:58:35 [pdengler]

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11:58:52 [ed]

rrsagent, pointer?

11:58:52 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc#T11-58-52

11:59:32 [jwatt]

foo never changes

11:59:40 [jwatt]

however

12:00:06 [jwatt]

myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.value will change, then change back

12:06:49 [pdengler]

scibenick: pdengler

12:06:57 [pdengler]

scribenick: pdengler

12:07:19 [pdengler]

shepazu: Let's go back to use cases. When woulod I as a developer want this.

12:07:28 [pdengler]

jwatt: When is getComputedTextlength useful

12:07:51 [pdengler]

ed: It's easier to use than bbox when you only want textlength as the string, because you have to use getbbox.width instead

12:08:17 [pdengler]

shepazu: Ok, which is harder: text.getComputedTextLength() or getBbox().width

12:08:56 [pdengler]

ChrisL: The textLength property has an effect on rendering (thus changing the boundingbox)

12:09:54 [pdengler]

ed: getComputedTextLength() does not look at textlLength at all

12:10:24 [pdengler]

shepazu: The use case is: find out what the textLength is so I can change soemthing else (put a box around it); change some other element to match the tetxLength

12:10:33 [pdengler]

jwatt: All of those things can be done with get bbox

12:10:56 [pdengler]

shepazu: Or I want to see if it's the right length and change it

12:11:13 [pdengler]

ed: When you have a textLength attribute set, it might squeeze or stretch text

12:11:20 [pdengler]

jwatt: But wouldn't that be the same as bbox?

12:11:32 [pdengler]

ed: Yes, but it would not be getComputedTextLength()

12:13:05 [pdengler]

shepazu: (on white board)

12:14:45 [AlexD]

Isn't getBBox around all of the text, whilst getComputedTextLength handling advance width only? I thought that was the case, so fancy fonts have a longer GetBBox.width than what getComputedtextLength returns.

12:15:05 [ed]

right

12:16:13 [ed]

but getComputedTextLength also depends on the font as I read the spec

12:16:32 [ed]

but it doesn't care about the 'textLength' attribute

12:18:14 [fat_tony]

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12:19:53 [fat_tony]

scribenick: fat_tony

12:20:00 [fat_tony]

scribe: anthony

12:38:27 [pdengler]

jwatt: the textength jscript property, if the textLength is not set, then the value should return the same value as getComputedtextLength()

12:38:41 [pdengler]

jwatt: If it is set, then it will return what is set

12:42:22 [AlexD]

Does that imply that textLength sets the advance width lengths as opposed to the Bbox lengths - I hope so...

12:43:12 [AlexD]

i.e. the stretch/contraction based on char ABC widths etc. that only takes into account advance, not glyph extent.

12:43:19 [fat_tony]

Yes

12:47:50 [fat_tony]

Summary: Let's just postpone resolving the case where the text is not in the document

12:48:47 [fat_tony]

For the case where the textLength attribute is not set the textLength property will return the save value as the getComputedTextLength() method

12:49:18 [AlexD]

Resolved, move on...

12:50:13 [fat_tony]

and add a note saying that 'when the textLength attribute is set, the values returned by the textLength property and by getComputedText() method will likely be different.'

12:52:30 [ed]

will do the changes mentioned as part of ACTION-2676

13:00:01 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1

13:02:03 [ed]

ACTION-2461?

13:02:03 [trackbot]

ACTION-2461 -- Jonathan Watt to suggest some rewritten text for these suspend methods -- due 2009-02-23 -- OPEN

13:02:03 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2461

13:03:40 [ed]

moved to SVG 2.0

13:03:46 [ed]

ACTION-2469?

13:03:46 [trackbot]

ACTION-2469 -- Jonathan Watt to flesh out the intrinsic sizing erratum with text backported from 1.2T -- due 2009-02-24 -- OPEN

13:03:46 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2469

13:03:50 [ed]

moved to SVG 2.0

13:04:33 [jwatt]

s/return the save/return the same/

13:19:18 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_1.1F2

13:22:00 [ed]

people doing actions on 1.1F2 and testsuite

13:23:29 [fat_tony]

We'll divide the testsuite work up

13:28:59 [fat_tony]

We need to fix the three fields in all the tests

13:29:13 [fat_tony]

Doug, you review from animate-dom-01-f.svg to filters-comptran-01-b.svg

13:29:36 [fat_tony]

Chris, you review from filters-conv-01-f.svg to painting-stroke-02-t.svg

13:29:59 [fat_tony]

JWatt, you review from painting-stroke-03-t.svg to struct-frag-05-t.svg

13:30:15 [fat_tony]

I will review from struct-frag-06-t.svg to types-dom-07-f.svg

13:30:45 [ChrisL]

Run the test. No interaction required.

14:07:05 [ed]

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14:12:07 [ed]

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14:16:42 [jwatt]

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14:17:44 [ed]

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14:19:36 [ed_]

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14:24:32 [AlexD]

Have to leave now, happy reviewing.

14:40:07 [ed_]

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14:45:12 [pdengler]

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14:46:02 [fat_tony]

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14:46:21 [fat_tony]

filters-conv-01-f.svg to painting-stroke-02-t.svg

14:46:52 [fat_tony]

need to change operatorScript to "Run the test. No interaction required.

15:01:39 [ed]

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15:19:52 [ed]

ok, starting on animate-elem-11-t

15:48:30 [ed]

animate-elem-12 done

15:55:25 [pdengler]

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15:56:13 [pdengler]

checked tests from filters-turb-02-f to fonts-elem-01-t

16:09:34 [ed]

animate-elem-13 done

16:11:15 [ed]

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16:49:37 [Zakim]

ed, you asked to be reminded at this time that it's time for dinner

16:50:06 [ed]

trackbot, end telcon

16:50:06 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

16:50:06 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:50:07 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:50:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-minutes.html trackbot

16:50:08 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

16:50:08 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items