08:47:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
08:47:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc
08:48:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:48:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
08:48:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
08:48:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:48:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:48:04 <trackbot> Date: 24 May 2010
08:49:36 <ed> Zakim, remind me in 8 hours that it's time for dinner
08:49:36 <Zakim> ok, ed
08:51:59 <ed> Zakim, this will be SVG WG Belgium F2F day 1 (May 24, 2010)
08:51:59 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ed
09:01:36 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
09:01:40 <ed> Focus for the first two days: finish SVG 1.1 F2
09:02:08 <ChrisL> hey guys i will be a long in a minute, just geting a taxi there from my hotel. sorry to be late
09:02:21 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
09:02:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc#T09-02-21
09:06:47 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
09:07:09 <ChrisL> what room are you in (or is it signposted)?
09:09:00 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #svg
09:09:10 <ChrisL> hey guys i will be a long in a minute, just geting a taxi there from my hotel. sorry to be late
09:09:12 <ChrisL> what room are you in (or is it signposted)?
09:09:57 <ed> there's a sign outside the door, it's just to the right after you enter
09:10:03 <ChrisL> thanks
09:10:07 <ChrisL> see you in a few
09:10:29 <shepazu> ChrisL: take a right out of the lobby, there's a sign on th wall, it's the Luxemburg room
09:10:37 <ed> agenda+ ACTION-2676 
09:27:44 <ed> moved ACTION-2386 to SVG 2.0, after discussion with jwatt and pdengler
09:31:32 <shepazu> AlexD: we're really just starting now
09:32:00 <shepazu> scribeNick: shepazu 
09:32:11 <shepazu> chair: ed 
09:33:01 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #svg
09:34:40 <AlexD> Thanks shepazu!
09:34:53 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
09:35:17 <shepazu> Topic: ACTION-2386
09:35:31 <ed> zakim, take up agenda 1
09:35:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-2676" taken up [from ed]
09:37:07 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2676
09:37:25 <jwatt> jwatt has joined #svg
09:37:54 <ed> changes here: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#SVGDOMOverview
09:41:56 <shepazu> "Fix the 1.1 second edition wording for values that are accessed where no attribute was provided"
09:42:21 <shepazu> ed: right now, it's got mixed definitions, I think it should always be 0
09:43:46 <shepazu> s/right now, it's got mixed definitions, I think it should always be 0/in most cases, you get a 0 value if you get it through the DOM/
09:46:09 <shepazu> ... each attribute has a default value
09:46:37 <shepazu> ... for example, on the svg element, width and height have a default value of '100%'
09:47:27 <shepazu> ... and that is what's returned when you access it though the DOM
09:48:04 <ChrisL> s/DOM/SVG DOM/
09:48:06 <shepazu> ... but it's not exactly clear in the spec....
09:48:40 <shepazu> ... with the core DOM, getAttribute will give you 'undefined'
09:49:05 <pdengler> The spec states "If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if a value of '100%' were specified."
09:49:40 <ed> data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><script>alert(document.documentElement.width.baseVal.value)</script></svg>
09:50:04 <shepazu> jwatt: but it's not clear what svg.width.baseVal.value should be
09:50:48 <shepazu> ed: I think it makes more sense to initialize them all to the same value
09:51:13 <shepazu> pdengler: but it's useful to get and change that value
09:51:58 <shepazu> ChrisL: ok, it's more clear for width and height, but what about other attributes?
09:52:17 <shepazu> .... width and height are special cases
09:52:46 <shepazu> ed: filterRez is an example where it changes
09:53:22 <ed> s/filterRez/filterRes/
09:53:30 <shepazu> ... and another is text-length, where it depends on the size of the text string
09:53:40 <ed> s/text-length/textLength/
09:54:18 <shepazu> ChrisL: width and height are special so that it scales automatically
09:54:50 <shepazu> jwatt: I think if it's not defined, it should throw an exception
09:55:02 <shepazu> ... we don't want users to get the wrong values
09:57:14 <shepazu> pdengler: what is the meaning of "the effect is as if"?
10:00:42 <shepazu> ChrisL: text-length allows an explicit override for text length, in case the actual length isn't correct
10:01:45 <shepazu> ChrisL: we've got specific cases where a particular default value is defined, but where we haven't done that, we need to we need to define them
10:02:32 <shepazu> pdengler: the DOM should reflect the default value
10:02:49 <shepazu> s/DOM/SVG DOM/
10:04:17 <ChrisL> The core dom has no knowledge of the element and attribute sematics while a specific dom does.
10:04:19 <shepazu> shepazu: I think it might confuse authors that .getAttribute and .baseVal.value returning different values would be confusing
10:04:46 <shepazu> ChrisL: but that's why we have the SVG DOM... it adds useful functionality for authors
10:07:21 <shepazu> ed: when you ask for a text element text-length and there wasn't one specified in the markup, you should get the same value as the SVG DOM function that defines the same value
10:07:28 <ed> getComputedTextLength
10:09:53 <ed> myTextElement.textLength.baseVal.value should be the same as myTextElement.getComputedTextLength()
10:10:35 <ChrisL> for text length, the textLength attribute is an override
10:15:03 <shepazu> shepazu: is this the long-term change we want?
10:15:42 <shepazu> ed: yes
10:16:19 <shepazu> ChrisL: we should include the list in the issue in the spec
10:17:11 <shepazu> ed: we can say that wherever it's not defined elsewhere, these values should be used
10:21:38 <shepazu> jwatt: if the filterRes attribute is not set, and you read the value from filterRes attribute value with getAttribute (which will be 0), and set the value, it will disable rendering
10:22:22 <ed> i'm just checking the changlog, seems I did change it once, to be fully covering all types
10:22:23 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/svgdom.html.diff?r1=1.17&r2=1.18&f=h
10:22:30 <jwatt> s/with getAttribute/from the filterRes JS property/
10:24:14 <shepazu> ed: with the textLength, and you change the string, is it changed live?
10:24:43 <shepazu> ChrisL: yes, unless the value is set explicitly in the markup
10:26:02 <AlexD> How is that going to work? If textLength becomes the equivalent of getComputedTextLength then fonts need to be instantiated, etc. Doesn't make sense to me.
10:26:26 <ChrisL> alex, i just said that too
10:26:36 <shepazu> (bad scribing)
10:26:38 <AlexD> OK, sorry.
10:26:57 <ChrisL> well, you couldn't hear me from there :)
10:27:02 <ChrisL> i was agreeing with you
10:27:12 <pdengler> If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if a value of '100%' were specified.
10:27:18 <jwatt> the spec says "If the attribute is not specified, the effect is as if the author's computation exactly matched the value calculated by the user agent"
10:27:44 <shepazu> ed: but percentages are relative to the viewport
10:28:31 <ed> break for lunch
10:28:47 <AlexD> Lucky I have the BBQ on, enjoy...
10:30:10 <ChrisL> problem is we want a default value that says "no scaling" and the value is a length, so it needs to be number, and 100% is relative to the viewport so won't work
10:30:19 <ChrisL> and "non" won't work either
10:30:27 <ChrisL> ok, lunch
11:39:38 <jwatt> jwatt has joined #svg
11:47:03 <ChrisL> back from lunch
11:50:22 <ed> ed has joined #svg
11:56:20 <ed> myTextElm.textContent ="mystring";
11:56:21 <ed> var foo = myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.baseVal.value
11:56:33 <ed> myTextElm.textContent ="mystring updated with more text";
11:56:51 <ed> myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.value = foo;
11:57:02 <ed> what value does 'foo' have?
11:57:57 <ed> s/baseVal.baseVal/baseVal/
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11:58:52 <ed> rrsagent, pointer?
11:58:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-irc#T11-58-52
11:59:32 <jwatt> foo never changes
11:59:40 <jwatt> however
12:00:06 <jwatt> myTextElm.textLength.baseVal.value will change, then change back
12:06:49 <pdengler> scibenick: pdengler
12:06:57 <pdengler> scribenick: pdengler
12:07:19 <pdengler> shepazu: Let's go back to use cases. When woulod I as a developer want this.
12:07:28 <pdengler> jwatt: When is getComputedTextlength useful
12:07:51 <pdengler> ed: It's easier to use than bbox when you only want textlength as the string, because you have to use getbbox.width instead
12:08:17 <pdengler> shepazu: Ok, which is harder: text.getComputedTextLength() or getBbox().width
12:08:56 <pdengler> ChrisL: The textLength property has an effect on rendering (thus changing the boundingbox)
12:09:54 <pdengler> ed: getComputedTextLength() does not look at textlLength at all
12:10:24 <pdengler> shepazu: The use case is: find out what the textLength is so I can change soemthing else (put a box around it); change some other element to match the tetxLength
12:10:33 <pdengler> jwatt: All of those things can be done with get bbox
12:10:56 <pdengler> shepazu: Or I want to see if it's the right length and change it
12:11:13 <pdengler> ed: When you have a textLength attribute set, it might squeeze or stretch text
12:11:20 <pdengler> jwatt: But wouldn't that be the same as bbox?
12:11:32 <pdengler> ed: Yes, but it would not be getComputedTextLength()
12:13:05 <pdengler> shepazu: (on white board)
12:14:45 <AlexD> Isn't getBBox around all of the text, whilst getComputedTextLength handling advance width only? I thought that was the case, so fancy fonts have a longer GetBBox.width than what getComputedtextLength returns.
12:15:05 <ed> right
12:16:13 <ed> but getComputedTextLength also depends on the font as I read the spec
12:16:32 <ed> but it doesn't care about the 'textLength' attribute
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12:19:53 <fat_tony> scribenick: fat_tony
12:20:00 <fat_tony> scribe: anthony
12:38:27 <pdengler> jwatt: the textength jscript property, if the textLength is not set, then the value should return the same value as getComputedtextLength()
12:38:41 <pdengler> jwatt: If it is set, then it will return what is set
12:42:22 <AlexD> Does that imply that textLength sets the advance width lengths as opposed to the Bbox lengths - I hope so...
12:43:12 <AlexD> i.e. the stretch/contraction based on char ABC widths etc. that only takes into account advance, not glyph extent.
12:43:19 <fat_tony> Yes
12:47:50 <fat_tony> Summary: Let's just postpone resolving the case where the text is not in the document
12:48:47 <fat_tony> For the case where the textLength attribute is not set the textLength property will return the save value as the getComputedTextLength() method
12:49:18 <AlexD> Resolved, move on...
12:50:13 <fat_tony> and add a note saying that 'when the textLength attribute is set, the values returned by the textLength property and by getComputedText() method will likely be different.'
12:52:30 <ed> will do the changes mentioned as part of ACTION-2676
13:00:01 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
13:02:03 <ed> ACTION-2461?
13:02:03 <trackbot> ACTION-2461 -- Jonathan Watt to suggest some rewritten text for these suspend methods -- due 2009-02-23 -- OPEN
13:02:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2461
13:03:40 <ed> moved to SVG 2.0
13:03:46 <ed> ACTION-2469?
13:03:46 <trackbot> ACTION-2469 -- Jonathan Watt to flesh out the intrinsic sizing erratum with text backported from 1.2T -- due 2009-02-24 -- OPEN
13:03:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2469
13:03:50 <ed> moved to SVG 2.0
13:04:33 <jwatt> s/return the save/return the same/
13:19:18 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_1.1F2
13:22:00 <ed> people doing actions on 1.1F2 and testsuite
13:23:29 <fat_tony> We'll divide the testsuite work up
13:28:59 <fat_tony> We need to fix the three fields in all the tests
13:29:13 <fat_tony> Doug, you review from animate-dom-01-f.svg to filters-comptran-01-b.svg
13:29:36 <fat_tony> Chris, you review from filters-conv-01-f.svg to painting-stroke-02-t.svg
13:29:59 <fat_tony> JWatt, you review from painting-stroke-03-t.svg to struct-frag-05-t.svg
13:30:15 <fat_tony> I will review from struct-frag-06-t.svg to types-dom-07-f.svg
13:30:45 <ChrisL> Run the test. No interaction required. 
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14:24:32 <AlexD> Have to leave now, happy reviewing.
14:40:07 <ed_> ed_ has joined #svg
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14:46:21 <fat_tony> filters-conv-01-f.svg to painting-stroke-02-t.svg
14:46:52 <fat_tony> need to change operatorScript to "Run the test. No interaction required. 
15:01:39 <ed> ed has joined #svg
15:19:52 <ed> ok, starting on animate-elem-11-t
15:48:30 <ed> animate-elem-12 done
15:55:25 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #svg
15:56:13 <pdengler> checked tests from filters-turb-02-f to fonts-elem-01-t
16:09:34 <ed> animate-elem-13 done
16:11:15 <ed> ed has joined #svg
16:49:37 <Zakim> ed, you asked to be reminded at this time that it's time for dinner
16:50:06 <ed> trackbot, end telcon
16:50:06 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:50:06 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:50:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:50:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/24-svg-minutes.html trackbot
16:50:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:50:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items