IRC log of rdfa on 2010-05-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:46:53 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

13:46:53 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-irc

13:47:17 [manu]

manu has changed the topic to: RDFa WG telecon: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Phttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.htmlublic/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html (manu)

13:47:26 [manu]

trackbot, prepare telecon

13:47:28 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:47:30 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7332

13:47:30 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes

13:47:31 [trackbot]

Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference

13:47:31 [trackbot]

Date: 20 May 2010

13:47:41 [manu]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html

13:47:44 [manu]

Chair: Manu

13:47:53 [manu]

Present: Ivan, Manu

13:48:15 [manu]

Regrets: BenA, ShaneM

13:50:58 [Benjamin]

Benjamin has joined #rdfa

13:54:08 [Knud]

Knud has joined #rdfa

13:56:09 [dongmei]

dongmei has joined #rdfa

13:59:34 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:59:41 [Zakim]

+ +03539149aaaa

13:59:54 [Knud]

wow

13:59:55 [Zakim]

+[MIT528]

14:00:18 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:00:27 [manu]

zakim, I am IPcaller

14:00:27 [Zakim]

ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

14:00:50 [Knud]

am I mute?

14:00:54 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:00:54 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:00:56 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:00:58 [dongmei]

hi,good morning

14:00:58 [Knud]

it's me!

14:01:24 [Zakim]

+ +49.631.205.7.aabb

14:01:28 [manu]

zakim, ?aaaa is Knud

14:01:28 [Zakim]

sorry, manu, I do not recognize a party named '?aaaa'

14:01:42 [manu]

zakim, aaaa is Knud

14:01:42 [Zakim]

+Knud; got it

14:01:52 [Zakim]

+tinkster

14:01:52 [manu]

zakim, aabb is BenjaminA

14:02:02 [Zakim]

+BenjaminA; got it

14:02:28 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #rdfa

14:04:04 [manu]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:04:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster

14:04:11 [tinkster]

tinkster has joined #rdfa

14:04:38 [tinkster]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:39 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster

14:04:50 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:04:50 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:06:01 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:06:01 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:06:32 [Zakim]

+ +0208761aacc

14:06:32 [Benjamin]

scribenick: Benjamin

14:06:41 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?aacc

14:06:41 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?aacc'

14:06:53 [manu]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html

14:06:59 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am aacc

14:06:59 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:08:11 [Benjamin]

ivan: let's discuss ISSUE-6 with Shane

14:10:27 [Benjamin]

manu: Mark and Manu discussed issues on integrating both RDFa DOM API proposals

14:10:49 [Benjamin]

... Benjamin is ok with the changes.

14:11:13 [manu]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-dom-api/

14:11:25 [Benjamin]

markbirbeck: Excellent work manu!

14:11:42 [Benjamin]

manu: changes are highlighted on the mailing list

14:12:32 [Benjamin]

... what we had was a low level API covering RDF types and some basic methods for retrieving triples

14:13:27 [Benjamin]

... Mark had many ideas to improve that and proposed to use this API even for other language formats (microformats, vcard, ...) than RDFa.

14:14:19 [Benjamin]

... added concepts of parser and store into the API and wrote about how to initialize the API

14:15:05 [Benjamin]

... We agreed on a much more gentle introduction of the document

14:15:38 [Benjamin]

Is tis the right direction?

14:16:29 [Benjamin]

ivan: wrote my oppinion in the mailing list.

14:17:02 [Benjamin]

... Finally, we should split parts of the document into several documents

14:17:47 [Benjamin]

... It's hard to understand the document because of the different levels that are mentioned.

14:18:31 [Benjamin]

... Ordinary users may be confused by too technical parts (e.g., store, parsers)

14:19:50 [Benjamin]

... in an Appendix a clean IDL specification of the API should exist

14:20:58 [Benjamin]

... The examples do not specify enough what is happening underneath

14:22:35 [Benjamin]

manu: We plan to have implementation details in section 3 and 4.

14:22:45 [manu]

zakim, q?

14:22:45 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

14:22:58 [markbirbeck]

q+

14:23:17 [Benjamin]

ivan: The document should be edited more as manual or reference guide.

14:24:06 [Benjamin]

q+

14:24:11 [manu]

ack markbirbeck

14:25:36 [Benjamin]

markbirbeck: We can move several specifications and examples to be more self explanatory.

14:26:19 [manu]

ack benjamin

14:26:51 [manu]

q+

14:26:59 [manu]

Benjamin: I'm wondering about who the audience is for this?

14:27:21 [manu]

Benjamin: Maybe we want to have different sections for different readers.

14:28:27 [Benjamin]

ivan: man target group are developers but for a while users won't have any other document source than this specification

14:28:57 [markbirbeck]

s/man target/main target/

14:29:40 [Benjamin]

manu: The HTML WG also discuss on existing difficult specifications. Anyway specifications should read like an O'Reilly book.

14:29:47 [tinkster]

q+

14:29:49 [markbirbeck]

q+ To comment on end-users needing to be able to use specs.

14:30:01 [Benjamin]

... we have two target groups, developers and users

14:30:02 [manu]

ack IPcaller

14:30:02 [tinkster]

zakim, unmute me

14:30:03 [Zakim]

tinkster should no longer be muted

14:30:12 [manu]

ack [IPcaller]

14:30:44 [Benjamin]

tinkster: We should publish an extra document with examples that reads like a Primer

14:30:51 [manu]

ack mark

14:30:51 [Zakim]

markbirbeck, you wanted to comment on end-users needing to be able to use specs.

14:30:55 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:30:55 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:31:01 [manu]

ack tinkster

14:31:13 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:31:13 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:32:21 [Benjamin]

markbirbeck: A Primer will set off pressure of this document. But a single document will preserve what is really meant to happen in the specification instead of having multiple documents like they exist for RDF(S).

14:32:51 [Benjamin]

q+

14:33:44 [manu]

ack Benjamin

14:34:06 [manu]

Benjamin: Having read the document, I don't think we need to strip the document into separate documents.

14:34:42 [manu]

Benjamin: We may want several sections Beginner Users vs. Advanced Developers vs. Implementers

14:34:48 [markbirbeck]

q+

14:35:02 [manu]

Benjamin: I think it's okay to repeat ourselves throughout the document.

14:36:08 [markbirbeck]

:)

14:36:10 [manu]

ack mark

14:36:46 [manu]

Mark: I don't think that we'll repeat ourselves as much as you think we will.

14:36:51 [Benjamin]

manu: Can we publish a FPWD of this API in two weeks?

14:37:57 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Agree with Benjamin that we shouldn't be scared of repeating ourselves in each section (with later sections being more detailed than previous ones). However, since we have some interfaces that are aimed at web developers only, and some interfaces that are aimed at more experienced programmers, then early sections will have different content to later ones.

14:38:06 [Benjamin]

ivan: If we integrate the issues we are discussing here into this document, we can do a FPWG.

14:38:10 [tinkster]

zakim, unmu8te me

14:38:10 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'unmu8te me', tinkster

14:38:14 [tinkster]

zakim, unmute me

14:38:14 [Zakim]

tinkster should no longer be muted

14:39:13 [Benjamin]

tinkster: The API has a different shape than the current document.

14:39:18 [tinkster]

zakim, mute me

14:39:18 [Zakim]

tinkster should now be muted

14:40:18 [manu]

2) ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE lists (on Shane)

14:40:24 [Benjamin]

/sFPWG/FPWD

14:40:26 [manu]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/8

14:41:11 [Benjamin]

manu: We never specified handling whitespaces in RDFa specs.

14:41:59 [ivan]

q+

14:42:02 [manu]

ack ivan

14:42:36 [Benjamin]

... e.g. newlines tabs etc. are specified in XML.

14:43:13 [tinkster]

Could we recommend that authors always use a single space character?

14:43:16 [Benjamin]

ivan: the host language (HTML, or XML dialect) has to specify handling whitespaces.

14:43:20 [tinkster]

(as a SHOULD)

14:44:55 [tinkster]

HTML5 it seems defers the definition of whitespace to Unicode.

14:44:55 [Benjamin]

\sFPWG\FPWD

14:46:06 [Benjamin]

manu: we may propose that RDFa refers to the host language for handling whitespaces.

14:46:24 [Benjamin]

\me thanks tinkster

14:46:42 [manu]

PROPOSAL: RDFa defaults to the Host Language for what constitutes whitespace.

14:46:58 [manu]

+1

14:47:00 [Benjamin]

+1

14:47:17 [manu]

PROPOSAL: RDFa defers to the Host Language for what constitutes whitespace.

14:47:21 [ivan]

+1

14:47:23 [markbirbeck]

+1

14:47:24 [manu]

+1

14:47:28 [tinkster]

XML just has 0x20, 0x0D, 0x0A and 0x09

14:47:29 [Benjamin]

+1

14:47:30 [Knud]

+1

14:47:32 [tinkster]

+0.5

14:47:59 [tinkster]

(i.e. XML is space, tab, carriage return and newline)

14:48:21 [Benjamin]

ivan: Did we leave whitespace handling unclear in the spec?

14:48:52 [tinkster]

zakim, unmute me

14:48:52 [Zakim]

tinkster should no longer be muted

14:49:07 [Benjamin]

ivan: We used a whitespace separated list in CURIE specification. That should be clear enough.

14:49:57 [Steven]

Steven has joined #rdfa

14:50:06 [Benjamin]

tinkster: Most languages leave whitespace handling and occurances open e.g. in XML and HTML5

14:50:08 [Steven]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:50:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster, markbirbeck

14:50:16 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:50:16 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:50:18 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:50:40 [Steven]

Apologies, I got my times mixed up.... :-(

14:51:20 [Benjamin]

tinkster: we are talking about whitespaces in attributes.

14:51:50 [Benjamin]

... the host language specs does not talk much about that

14:52:04 [Steven]

rrsagent, here?

14:52:04 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-irc#T14-52-04

14:52:37 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:52:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

14:53:26 [Benjamin]

\swhitespaces in\whitespaces within

14:53:37 [manu]

PROPOSAL: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespace.

14:53:42 [tinkster]

+1

14:53:48 [manu]

+1

14:53:49 [ivan]

And the definition in XML spec are S ::= (#x20 | #x9 | #xD | #xA)+

14:53:54 [ivan]

+1

14:53:54 [Steven]

s/whitespaces in/whitespaces within/

14:53:56 [markbirbeck]

s/whitespaces in/whitespaces within/

14:53:58 [Benjamin]

+1

14:53:59 [Knud]

+1

14:53:59 [markbirbeck]

:)

14:54:02 [markbirbeck]

+1

14:54:03 [Steven]

:-)

14:54:40 [manu]

PROPOSAL: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespaces within attribute values.

14:54:42 [markbirbeck]

s/FPWG/FPWD/

14:54:58 [markbirbeck]

s/ups/oops/

14:55:01 [manu]

RESOLVED: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespaces within attribute values.

14:55:02 [markbirbeck]

:)

14:55:29 [manu]

3) ISSUE-6: Invalid values in @datatype (on Ivan)

14:55:36 [manu]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/6

14:56:16 [Steven]

i/Mark and Manu discussed issues on integrating/Topic: RDFa DOM API

14:57:08 [Steven]

s/FPWG/FPWD/

14:57:41 [Steven]

i/2) ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE list/Topic: ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE lists

14:57:44 [Benjamin]

ivan: attributes with invalid values should behave like attributes with empty content

14:57:47 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:57:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

14:57:54 [ivan]

@attribute="ILLEGALVALUE" is @attribute="" or no attribute at all

14:59:00 [manu]

RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.

14:59:23 [manu]

PROPOSAL: RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.

14:59:26 [ivan]

+1

14:59:27 [tinkster]

+1

14:59:29 [manu]

+1

14:59:35 [Benjamin]

ivan: Shane will understand that

14:59:37 [Benjamin]

+1

14:59:44 [Steven]

"all" or "any"?

14:59:45 [markbirbeck]

+1

14:59:49 [Knud]

+1

15:00:15 [markbirbeck]

all

15:00:27 [manu]

RESOLVED: RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.

15:00:42 [Benjamin]

tinkster: we should make an errata for RDFa 1.0 spec

15:01:11 [Steven]

Errata are here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014-errata/

15:02:12 [manu]

trackbot, issue Should RDFa allow relative URIs in any CURIE-based attribute?

15:02:12 [trackbot]

Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, issue Should RDFa allow relative URIs in any CURIE-based attribute?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

15:02:30 [ivan]

Does TERMorCURIEorURIs allow relative URI-s

15:02:38 [Steven]

s/FPWG/FPWD/

15:02:53 [manu]

trackbot, ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?

15:02:53 [trackbot]

Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

15:02:57 [manu]

ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?

15:02:57 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-27 - Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/27/edit .

15:03:19 [manu]

ACTION: Shane to errata RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.

15:03:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-29 - Errata RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value. [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-05-27].

15:04:19 [Zakim]

-tinkster

15:04:23 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

15:04:25 [Zakim]

-Knud

15:04:25 [Benjamin]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:04:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Benjamin

15:04:26 [ivan]

zakim, drop me

15:04:27 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

15:04:29 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:04:33 [Zakim]

-[MIT528]

15:04:37 [Zakim]

Ivan is being disconnected

15:04:39 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:04:55 [Steven]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see BenjaminA

15:05:10 [Zakim]

-BenjaminA

15:05:11 [Steven]

zakim, dro pBenj

15:05:12 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:05:14 [Zakim]

Attendees were +03539149aaaa, [MIT528], [IPcaller], Ivan, +49.631.205.7.aabb, Knud, tinkster, BenjaminA, +0208761aacc, markbirbeck, Steven

15:05:17 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'dro pBenj', Steven

15:05:24 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:05:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

15:07:43 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:07:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

15:08:51 [Steven]

[ADJOURN]

15:08:57 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:08:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

15:10:47 [Steven]

Present+MarkB, BenjamineA, Knud, Toby, Steven

15:11:01 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:11:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven

15:12:10 [Steven]

Ah

15:12:12 [Steven]

THanks

15:12:14 [Steven]

Sorry

15:12:19 [manu]

np :)

15:12:42 [manu]

I just didn't want you going to the trouble of cleaning things up when you didn't have to :)

15:23:51 [Steven]

Thanks for thinking of me

15:38:58 [manu]

zakim, bye

15:38:58 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

15:39:02 [manu]

rrsagent, bye

15:39:02 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :

15:39:02 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to errata RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value. [1]

15:39:02 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-irc#T15-03-19

15:39:08 [manu]

trackbot, bye