IRC log of rdfa on 2010-05-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-rdfa-irc
13:57:10 [manu]
trackbot, setup meeting
13:57:10 [trackbot]
Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
13:57:26 [manu]
trackbot, prepare telecon
13:57:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:57:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
13:57:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:57:31 [trackbot]
Date: 13 May 2010
13:57:47 [manu]
Chair: Manu Sporny
13:58:03 [tinkster1]
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13:58:46 [manu]
Present: Manu, Ivan, Toby, Shane
13:58:53 [manu]
Regrets: Ben, Steven, Benjamin, Mark
13:59:54 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:00:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.734.995.aaaa
14:00:13 [manu]
zakim, aaaa is manu
14:00:13 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
14:00:15 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:00:15 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:00:16 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:01:14 [Zakim]
+ +0785583aabb
14:01:24 [tinkster]
zakim, aabb is me
14:01:24 [Zakim]
+tinkster; got it
14:02:14 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
14:02:18 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
14:02:18 [Zakim]
tinkster should now be muted
14:02:27 [ivan]
scribenick: ivan
14:04:25 [tinkster]
zakim, unmute me
14:04:25 [Zakim]
tinkster should no longer be muted
14:08:59 [ivan]
Topic: possible new issues from mailing list
14:09:05 [ivan]
manu: ivan contacted me off line
14:09:12 [ivan]
... two possible issues
14:09:16 [manu]
- not-parsing if @profile cannot be accessed (Jeni's mail)
14:09:18 [manu]
- do we need an error reporting mechanism in rdfa
14:09:45 [ivan]
manu: anybody who thinks we should not turn these into issues?
14:09:58 [ivan]
manu: any other issues that we missed?
14:10:22 [ivan]
tinkster: not at the moment
14:10:31 [ivan]
manu: we have to document all these well
14:10:46 [ivan]
... if anybody things of any other issues then send a mail to the mailing list
14:10:52 [ivan]
... i will add those two after the call
14:15:29 [ivan]
topic: review rdfa dom api progress
14:15:44 [ivan]
manu: mark sent a mail to the list that he does not have anything for us yet
14:16:03 [ivan]
... toby what are your thoughts on the progress?
14:16:11 [ivan]
tinkster: i must admit I did not look at it last week...
14:16:17 [ivan]
manu: nothing changed
14:16:33 [ivan]
tinkster: it is fragmented between a triple space and a resource space apis
14:16:44 [ivan]
... would be good to have a combined version of those two
14:16:57 [ivan]
manu: in an extended call last week this is the direction we have decided to go to
14:17:08 [ivan]
... my concern is that the document has not progressed in the past few weeks
14:17:22 [ivan]
... i will volunteer to integerate mark's changes into the dom api
14:17:29 [ivan]
q+
14:17:34 [manu]
ack ivan
14:17:37 [ivan]
ivan: i agree,
14:17:53 [manu]
Ivan: We have to move on - the writing needs to be in one document, they need to be merged
14:17:56 [Zakim]
+[MIT528]
14:18:00 [manu]
Ivan: This has been dragging on for way too long.
14:18:58 [dongmei]
dongmei has joined #rdfa
14:19:12 [ivan]
ShaneM: I am abstaining on that
14:19:25 [ivan]
manu: meaning we should really move forwards?
14:20:35 [ivan]
manu: I will go ahead
14:20:58 [ivan]
tinkster: if you look at triples, the different views are not that disconnected
14:21:12 [ivan]
manu: everyone agrees that this is a good thing to have
14:21:17 [ivan]
... i will start this
14:21:25 [ivan]
topic: issue 22 discussions
14:21:49 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/22
14:22:31 [ivan]
manu: the problem is that in rdfa1.0 we say that prefixes are case sensitive
14:22:38 [ivan]
ShaneM: we just defer to xmlns
14:22:44 [ivan]
... and xmlns is case sensitive
14:23:04 [ivan]
manu: in rdfa1.1 i think what we want to say that prefixes must be converted to lowercase
14:23:09 [ivan]
ShaneM: and it says that
14:23:19 [ivan]
... and we put it in the errate
14:23:23 [ivan]
s/errate/errata/
14:23:36 [ivan]
manu: previously we said use lower case
14:23:45 [ivan]
... now we say convert it
14:23:56 [ShaneM]
Section 4.1. Document Conformance - In the future it is possible that RDFa will also be defined in the context of HTML. Consequently document authors SHOULD use lower-case prefix names in order to be compatible with current and potential future processors.
14:24:02 [ivan]
q+
14:24:12 [manu]
ack ivan
14:24:23 [manu]
Ivan: We're still talking about prefixes and not terms, correct?
14:24:51 [manu]
Ivan: Do we have a separate issue with terms?
14:24:56 [manu]
Manu: I don't think this would apply to terms.
14:25:43 [ivan]
ivan: what about HTML5?
14:26:24 [tinkster]
in html5, rel and rev values are case-insensitive, unless they contain a colon.
14:26:44 [ivan]
manu: why is that?
14:27:11 [ivan]
manu: from what I remember, browsers preserve case for @rel and @rev
14:27:36 [ivan]
... we could say that terms that are not in the reserved list (license, etc) are case sensitive
14:28:20 [manu]
trackbot, create issue Case-sensitive terms in HTML5
14:28:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, create issue Case-sensitive terms in HTML5'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:28:41 [manu]
trackbot, ISSUE: Case-sensitive terms in HTML5
14:28:41 [trackbot]
Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE: Case-sensitive terms in HTML5'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:28:51 [manu]
ISSUE: Case-sensitive terms in HTML5
14:28:51 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-24 - Case-sensitive terms in HTML5 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/24/edit .
14:29:18 [ivan]
manu: for xmlns we should have case sensitivity
14:29:26 [ivan]
... as well as for @prefix
14:29:53 [manu]
PROPOSAL: For prefixes defined via xmlns: and @prefix, the prefix text should be converted to lowercase by the RDFa Processor.
14:30:04 [ivan]
+1
14:30:04 [manu]
+1
14:30:06 [ShaneM]
+1
14:30:08 [tinkster]
+0
14:30:31 [ivan]
RESOLVED: For prefixes defined via xmlns: and @prefix, the prefix text should be converted to lowercase by the RDFa Processor.
14:30:34 [ShaneM]
Here is what the spec says now: Mappings are defined via @prefix. For backward compatibility, some Host Languages may also permit the definition of mappings via @xmlns. In this case, the value to be mapped is set by the XML namespace prefix, and the value to map is the value of the attribute — a URI. Regardless of how the mapping is declared, the value to be mapped must be converted to l
14:31:18 [ShaneM]
lower case, and the URI is not processed in any way; in particular if it is a relative path it is not resolved against the current base. Authors should not use relative paths as the URI.
14:31:27 [ivan]
manu: note on the vote that toby is concerned about backward compatibility issue
14:31:32 [manu]
Toby: I'm concerned about the backwards incompatible change, but could go either way on it.
14:31:42 [ivan]
topic: issue 19
14:31:59 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/19
14:32:09 [ivan]
manu: this is another backward incompatible changes
14:32:33 [ivan]
... by default rdfa1.0 generates xml literal if there is an element within the element being processed
14:33:02 [ivan]
... based on the markup that we have seen lots of people are generating xml literals when they intend plain literal
14:33:51 [ivan]
tinkster: there are two related issues (1) do we want to generate xml literals by default (2) do we recursively go down
14:34:01 [ivan]
manu: we have split those into two issues
14:34:10 [ivan]
tinkster: i do not have any strong opinion,
14:34:18 [ivan]
... it is one thing we should consider
14:35:16 [manu]
Ivan: This is the one thing that we listed in the charter, so there seems to be consensus that we wanted to address this.
14:35:41 [ivan]
ShaneM: i do not have a problem with this, we should have fixed it in the errata
14:36:21 [ivan]
manu: the general idea is that then people are adding datatypes they generally do not mark up markup
14:36:34 [ivan]
.... i do not think the vast majority of people will try to expose markup on their pages
14:36:46 [ivan]
... and that is where people would use xml literal in their markup
14:36:56 [ivan]
... there is stuff like mathml
14:36:59 [ivan]
... or svg
14:37:03 [ivan]
q+
14:37:13 [ivan]
... chemical compounds, etc
14:37:15 [manu]
ack ivan
14:37:47 [manu]
Ivan: Just to be fair - I see one area where people might want to do that, and that might be multi-lingual things.
14:37:57 [manu]
Ivan: That being said, that's not a majority use case.
14:38:18 [manu]
Manu: So, Ruby markup?
14:38:55 [manu]
Manu: and what we're saying is you can still do that, but you have to do it explicitly datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral"
14:39:09 [manu]
Toby: There are plenty of use cases, just not as common as Plain Literals.
14:39:15 [ivan]
tinkster: there are use cases, but just not as common
14:40:05 [manu]
PROPOSAL: By default RDFa 1.1 should generate Plain Literals even when there are elements in a subtree, unless datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral" is specified.
14:40:25 [manu]
Toby: What about datatype="xml"
14:40:56 [ivan]
+1
14:40:57 [manu]
+1
14:41:01 [tinkster]
+1
14:41:12 [ShaneM]
+1
14:41:14 [ivan]
RESOLVED: By default RDFa 1.1 should generate Plain Literals even when there are elements in a subtree, unless datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral" is specified.
14:41:20 [manu]
RESOLVED: By default RDFa 1.1 should generate Plain Literals even when there are elements in a subtree, unless datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral" is specified.
14:41:26 [ivan]
q+
14:41:34 [manu]
ack ivan
14:41:52 [manu]
Ivan: There is a more general thing that we started to discuss - do we have an open issue on default vocabularies and terms?
14:42:31 [manu]
Manu: This one http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/11 ?
14:42:52 [manu]
Ivan: Not the same issue - Should we have default terms in RDFa Core?
14:43:52 [manu]
We also need to consider whether or not there would be default terms in RDFa Core. Things like datatype="xml" instead of needing to specify datatype="rdf:XMLLiteral".
14:44:10 [ivan]
(added to issue 11)
14:44:14 [ivan]
topic: issue 10
14:44:16 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/10
14:44:31 [ivan]
ShaneM: why is this an issue
14:44:42 [ivan]
manu: it is in our queue
14:44:43 [ShaneM]
This specification also adds the lang attribute to the I18N attribute collection as defined in [XHTML-MODULARIZATION11-2e]. The lang attribute is defined in [HTML401]. When this attribute and the xml:lang attribute are specified on the same element, the xml:lang attribute takes precedence. When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they should have the same value.
14:45:10 [ivan]
ShaneM: this is already in xhtml+rdfa
14:45:21 [ivan]
... and we should be sure that this is the same as in html5
14:45:23 [ivan]
q+
14:45:50 [manu]
ack ivan
14:46:16 [ivan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Feb/0092.html
14:46:58 [manu]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-lang-and-xml:lang-attributes
14:48:47 [ivan]
q+
14:49:02 [manu]
Manu: I don't think the HTML5 spec says this... it says ignore xml:lang
14:50:47 [ivan]
manu: the problem is when somebody uses both xml:lang and lang with different values, if run as xhtml and in html5 the generated triples will be different
14:50:54 [ivan]
... is this a problem?
14:51:03 [ivan]
... it is a corner corner case
14:51:24 [ivan]
... one way is to put a strong warning in the xhtml+rdfa text about the dangers
14:51:47 [ivan]
... ie, a proposed way forward is to defer to the language
14:51:56 [ivan]
... in xml and xhtml what counts is xml:lang
14:52:01 [ivan]
... in html5 it is lang
14:52:02 [ivan]
q+
14:52:06 [manu]
ack ivan
14:52:34 [ivan]
ShaneM: we do not know what mode we are in
14:52:41 [ivan]
manu: we have version
14:52:47 [ivan]
... but people do not want version
14:52:53 [ivan]
... it is a should
14:52:58 [ivan]
q_
14:52:59 [ivan]
q+
14:53:17 [manu]
ack ivan
14:53:20 [ivan]
ShaneM: in the absence of an announcement mechanism I would object
14:53:28 [tinkster]
q+
14:55:00 [manu]
Ivan: My parser figures out what mode to be in by looking at the document type - text/html means HTML5 mode
14:55:12 [manu]
ack tinkster
14:55:14 [ShaneM]
q+ to talk about media type
14:55:25 [ShaneM]
q-
14:55:27 [ivan]
tinkster: the annoucement mechanism might be media type
14:55:39 [ivan]
ShaneM: not all processors have access to the document type
14:56:31 [ivan]
tinkster: is there a way for javascript to find out the content type?
14:56:39 [ivan]
ShaneM: not in a portable way:-9
14:56:46 [ivan]
s/:-9/:-(/
14:57:43 [ivan]
ShaneM: there is a hack, I create an element in the dom in lower case then I retrieve and if this is lower case
14:58:05 [ivan]
ShaneM: i am not against the resolution, but we do have a problem
14:58:10 [ShaneM]
How about requiring that the values are the same if both are specified?
14:58:12 [ivan]
manu: this is really really a corner case
14:58:41 [tinkster]
ShaneM, html5 already does.
14:58:51 [ivan]
... we can say that if you want portability, use both cases and really really not use different
14:59:32 [ivan]
ShaneM: I have always said we do not define the processing rules for invalid content
14:59:46 [manu]
PROPOSAL: RDFa 1.1 defers to the Host Language to determine the language of the node.
14:59:57 [tinkster]
+1
14:59:58 [manu]
+1
15:00:03 [ShaneM]
+1
15:00:19 [manu]
PROPOSAL: RDFa Core 1.1 defers to the Host Language to determine the language of the node.
15:00:22 [ivan]
+1
15:00:22 [manu]
+1
15:00:24 [ShaneM]
+1
15:00:24 [tinkster]
+1
15:00:36 [manu]
RESOLVED: RDFa Core 1.1 defers to the Host Language to determine the language of the node.
15:01:16 [ShaneM]
When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they MUST have the same value.
15:01:27 [manu]
PROPOSAL: When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they MUST have the same value.
15:01:32 [manu]
+1
15:01:34 [ivan]
+1
15:01:40 [ShaneM]
+1
15:01:46 [manu]
Manu: That means that it is a validation error if they are not the same.
15:01:48 [tinkster]
+0 : this should not be our responsibility
15:04:21 [ivan]
RESOLVED: When both lang and xml:lang are specified on the same element, they MUST have the same value
15:04:47 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
15:04:52 [Zakim]
-tinkster
15:04:54 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
15:04:54 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
15:04:54 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:04:56 [Zakim]
-[MIT528]
15:04:56 [Zakim]
-manu
15:04:56 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:04:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.734.995.aaaa, manu, Ivan, +0785583aabb, tinkster, ShaneM, [MIT528]
15:31:42 [manu]
zakim, bye
15:31:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
15:31:44 [manu]
rrsagent, bye
15:31:44 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items