IRC log of mbui on 2010-05-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:21:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-irc
07:21:47 [kaz]
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07:21:51 [kaz]
hi
07:21:56 [Steven]
rrsagent, make logs world
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s/hi//
07:22:28 [Steven]
Meeting: W3C Model-based User Interfaces Workshop, Rome, Italy
07:22:37 [Steven]
Chair: Dave Raggett
07:23:22 [Steven]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/mbui/program.html
07:23:30 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:23:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
07:24:17 [Steven]
Topic: MBUI Incubator Group work and results, José Manuel Cantera Fonseca, Telefónica I+D
07:25:16 [Steven]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/model-based-ui/XGR-mbui-20100504/ Model-Based UI XG Final Report
07:25:22 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:25:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
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rrsagent, make minutes
07:29:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
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07:32:30 [Steven]
Present+Steven_Pemberton
07:32:39 [Steven]
Present+Fabio_Paterno
07:32:49 [Steven]
Present+Pablo Cesar
07:32:54 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:32:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
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scribe: dsr
07:33:31 [Steven]
s/Pablo Cear/Pablo_Cesar/
07:33:39 [Steven]
Present+Dave_Raggett
07:33:40 [dsr]
rrsagent, set logs public
07:34:44 [Steven]
Present+José_Manuel_Cantera_Fonseca
07:34:50 [dsr]
Jose introduces the MBUI area and the XG
07:35:42 [Steven]
Present+Gerrit_Meixner
07:36:02 [Steven]
Present+Daniel_Schwabe
07:36:03 [kaz]
Steven, shall I circulate attendees list to get attendees' name?
07:36:08 [dsr]
The CAMELEON reference framework as the core architecture, and deriving from previous research.
07:36:17 [kaz]
s/Steven, shall I circulate attendees list to get attendees' name?//
07:36:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:36:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
07:51:14 [Gerrit]
José gives a brief introduction of the work of the W3C MBUI XG group
08:00:10 [claudio]
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08:00:18 [dsr]
Jose summarises the questions arising from the MBUI XG Report. (see slides)
08:01:22 [dsr]
Jose suggests standardization of baseline meta-models for the different abstraction layers in the Cameleon reference framework.
08:02:01 [dsr]
This would facilitate tools for interchange between different MBUI formats and tools.
08:04:23 [dsr]
Dave asks about the origins of the Cameleon framework?
08:04:48 [dsr]
Fabio: it dates back a few years to an EU project that has now closed.
08:05:28 [dsr]
Fabio: do we think it is practical to put together a roadmap for standardization?
08:06:09 [dsr]
Can we find an agreement at the meta model, starting with task/domain level and the AUI level?
08:06:23 [dsr]
This seems practical and would feed into other work.
08:07:01 [dsr]
Jose: seeing similarities and differences in task models, e.g. different kinds of relationships.
08:07:26 [dsr]
Fabio/Gerrit: these are extensible.
08:07:51 [dsr]
Fabio: we can define a core plus a means for adding extensions
08:08:06 [dsr]
Jose: modularity also
08:10:45 [dsr]
We can discuss XForms later which at first glance covers both AUI and the CUI levels.
08:11:20 [dsr]
Topic: UsiXML
08:14:08 [kaz]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/model-based-ui/wiki/UsiXML UsiXML
08:16:14 [kaz]
i/Topic: UsiXML/topic: Session on Model-Based Approaches for Interactive Application Design/
08:17:23 [kaz]
s/Topic: UsiXML/Topic: UsiXML - Dave Raggett/
08:17:43 [kaz]
[ Slides URI: TBD ]
08:21:57 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:21:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
08:24:04 [kaz]
(dave leads discussion about UsiXML)
08:24:50 [kaz]
* longevity of MBUI XG site is one issue
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08:27:12 [kaz]
Note: "AUI" means "Abstract User Interface" and "CUI" means "Concrete User Interface"
08:28:29 [kaz]
kobayashi: is UsiXML part of MBUI XG?
08:28:42 [kaz]
dave: yes
08:29:46 [kaz]
fabio: the point here is considering abstract level
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08:30:52 [kaz]
daniel: our scope is different from OMA's broader picture. nice to see here is what would better fit
08:31:08 [kaz]
s/kobayashi:/toru:/
08:31:55 [kaz]
@@@: thinking about the relationship with the broader picture would make sense
08:33:24 [kaz]
(some more discussion about Web engineering community and W3C)
08:34:38 [kaz]
i/[ Slides URI/-> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/model-based-ui/wiki/images/e/ef/UsiXML-MBUI-W3C2009.pdf UsiXML slides/
08:34:49 [kaz]
s/[ Slides URI: TBD ]//
08:35:30 [hiroyuki]
kaz, Toru asks MBUI is part of MDA
08:36:31 [kaz]
s/part of MBUI XG/part of MDA/
08:37:45 [hiroyuki]
s/asks/asks if/
08:39:59 [kaz]
* how does UsiXML relate to other model based approaches?
08:40:07 [kaz]
* use cases?
08:40:30 [kaz]
* this workshop will provide some more concrete use cases
08:40:54 [kaz]
* much better organized research communities as well
08:42:18 [kaz]
* we want to understand industry demands
08:42:39 [kaz]
* not only UI but also other use cases
08:43:15 [Daniel]
the observation is about the *lack* of industry uptake on using model-based approaches in general, as well as *methods*
08:43:33 [Daniel]
this includes UI models
08:44:30 [kaz]
* question about experimental data on which approach is better than another approach
08:44:57 [kaz]
(comparison between approaches)
08:45:16 [kaz]
topic: UseWare engineering process - Gerrit Meixner, DFKI
08:45:27 [kaz]
[ slides: TBD ]
08:45:41 [kaz]
(Gerrit introduces DFKI)
08:47:41 [kaz]
(MBUID Use Cases)
08:48:12 [kaz]
* several dozens of different devices are managed
08:48:32 [kaz]
(Useware Engineering Process)
08:50:26 [kaz]
* four phases: analysis/structuring/design/realization + evaluation
08:50:55 [kaz]
(Useware Markup Language (useML)
08:51:03 [kaz]
s/ML)/ML))/
08:52:05 [kaz]
(Udit - useML-Editor)
08:53:23 [kaz]
* editor + simulator
08:53:40 [kaz]
(MBUID toolchain)
08:53:51 [kaz]
* process, tools and languages
08:56:29 [kaz]
* export from DISL to VoiceXML/SCXML (not implemented but should be useful)
08:56:59 [kaz]
(MBUID@Run-time)
08:57:18 [kaz]
* devices have to be maintained
08:57:53 [kaz]
* but there is bad accessibility caused by physical configuration
08:58:03 [kaz]
(SmartMote)
08:58:15 [kaz]
* remote control for inteligent production environments
08:58:35 [kaz]
* task-centered, adaptive and wireless
08:59:05 [kaz]
(Inddor Positioning Systems)
08:59:25 [kaz]
* Ubisense UWB-realtime positioning system
08:59:32 [kaz]
* RFID Grid
08:59:47 [kaz]
* Cricket Ultrasonic Indor location system
09:00:29 [kaz]
(Norms, Standards and Guidelines)
09:01:01 [kaz]
- Q&A:
09:01:37 [kaz]
* how to handle multiple users?
09:02:12 [kaz]
-> user group managed by supervisor or administrator
09:02:41 [kaz]
* difference between useML and CC/PP?
09:03:11 [kaz]
-> 5 elements assigned to specific task
09:03:35 [kaz]
-> can be extended depending concrete projects/requirements
09:04:39 [kaz]
not CC/PP but CTT
09:04:52 [kaz]
* any patent?
09:04:55 [kaz]
-> nop
09:05:56 [kaz]
* would like to follow the 2.0 version
09:06:55 [kaz]
[break]
09:07:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html kaz
09:31:44 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
09:32:07 [Steven]
Topic: Semantic Hypermedia Design Method (SHDM), Daniel Schwabe, PUCC-Rio
09:32:25 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:32:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
09:33:22 [kaz]
i/Topic: UsiXML/scribenick: kaz/
09:33:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html kaz
09:34:01 [Steven]
Daniel: I've been working on hypermedia since the 90's
09:34:37 [Steven]
... now Semantic Hypermedia Design Model
09:34:50 [Steven]
... I will do some reflections on what we have been looking at
09:34:59 [Steven]
... and importnant points we should discuss
09:35:05 [Steven]
s/nant/ant/
09:35:19 [Steven]
Pablo: Any relaction to NCL?
09:35:27 [Steven]
s/ction/tion/
09:35:41 [Steven]
Daniel: In early stages; they are more lower level
09:36:06 [Steven]
Daniel: Why do we use Model based? What do we want?
09:36:13 [Steven]
... I want to leverage abstractions
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09:36:38 [Steven]
... find a way to describe abstractions in a concise way, ignoring some details
09:36:49 [Steven]
... providing a model, abstracting an artefact
09:37:26 [Steven]
... provides concise abstract language
09:37:45 [Steven]
Steven: What do you mean by artefact?
09:37:53 [Steven]
Daniel: The concrete thing we want to produce
09:38:23 [Steven]
... we are not just observing artefacts, but engineer them
09:38:47 [Steven]
... the models will abstract them, we need several models to completely characterise what you want to produce
09:39:01 [Steven]
... translate between models, to get an executable one
09:39:50 [Steven]
xxx: Is a UI a representation of what a user wants to do?
09:39:57 [Steven]
Daniel: I come to that later.
09:40:03 [Gerrit]
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09:40:32 [Steven]
Daniel: We have looked at many types of models [slide lists them]
09:41:00 [Steven]
... SHDM Models
09:41:25 [Steven]
... our meaning of 'navigation' is different from most usage
09:42:42 [Steven]
... it is a conceptual layer, where you travel from node to node in a hypermedia graph
09:44:14 [Steven]
... this is missing from the task level of Cameleon
09:44:54 [Steven]
... our abstract interface is looking at widgets only from the role, not the form
09:45:16 [Steven]
... another model is the rhetorical model
09:45:34 [Steven]
... for mapping between models, especially time-dependent ones
09:45:49 [Steven]
... gives timing and ordering of events
09:46:05 [Steven]
... especially when communicating between people
09:46:30 [Steven]
... for instance we used it to generate animate transitions
09:46:43 [Steven]
... not just from an artistic point of view
09:46:57 [Steven]
s/animate/animated/
09:47:30 [Steven]
yyy: How do you capture the semantics in such a precise way?
09:47:47 [Steven]
Daniel: We propose a semantic model in terms of which we describe the interaction
09:48:05 [Steven]
... though not the dynamic semantics
09:48:21 [Steven]
Pablo: Is it right that the rhetorical model the timing model?
09:48:25 [Steven]
Daniel: Yes, roughly
09:48:36 [Steven]
s/model the/model is the/
09:49:07 [Steven]
Pablo: You weren't talking about hypermedia
09:49:20 [Steven]
Daniel: No, only as an issue
09:49:40 [Steven]
... on the web the hypermedia is built in
09:50:05 [Steven]
Topic: ConcurTaskTrees and MARIA languages for Authoring, Fabio Paternò, Carmen Santoro, Davide Spano, ISTI, CNR
09:50:13 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:50:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
09:51:22 [Steven]
Fabio: I will provide an overview of our work
09:51:42 [Steven]
... the point is how we use the concurtasktrees as support
09:52:04 [Steven]
Fabio: Why another model-based language?
09:52:24 [Steven]
... well technologies develop fast
09:52:44 [Steven]
... such as mobile, gestures, voice
09:52:54 [Steven]
... need a language to address new issues
09:53:04 [Steven]
... and to clean up, make more usable
09:53:25 [Steven]
Fabio: MARIA uses features from existing languages
09:53:41 [Steven]
... data model
09:53:45 [Steven]
... events
09:53:50 [Steven]
... dialosue model
09:54:00 [Steven]
... support for Ajax scripts
09:54:13 [Steven]
s/sue/gue/
09:54:34 [Steven]
Fabio: Many techniques are used on current websites
09:54:53 [Steven]
[Diagram of AUI Meta Model]
09:54:56 [Daniel]
Discussion points from Daniel's presentation:
09:55:56 [Steven]
Fabio: Composition is of two types
09:55:59 [Steven]
... grouping
09:56:23 [Daniel]
1 - Refinements and improvements to Chameleon's model: Navigation Model (as a relevant part of the "Task and Domain"model)
09:56:34 [Steven]
... [Scribe misses second]
09:56:39 [Daniel]
2 - A more precise characterization of "Abstract Interface"
09:56:49 [Steven]
Fabio: How can we support service-oriented apps?
09:57:07 [Steven]
... at the service level
09:57:11 [Steven]
... at the app level
09:57:16 [Steven]
... at the UI level
09:57:35 [Daniel]
3 - Need for a Rhetorical Model to guide the mapping from Abstract to Concrete Interface mapping, especially for time-dependent interaction
09:57:56 [Steven]
... we like to address composition at the app level
09:59:02 [Steven]
Fabio: The service developer create service annotations to provide hints on implementation
09:59:29 [Steven]
... the hints are indepennt of the UI implementation language
09:59:38 [Steven]
s/pennt/pendent/.
09:59:44 [Steven]
s/pennt/pendent/
10:00:14 [Steven]
Fabio: We needed an informal phase of task analysis, to formalise in model
10:00:54 [Steven]
... we transform to concrete UI
10:01:14 [Steven]
... methodology is not top-down, but has a first bottom-up firs step
10:01:23 [Steven]
s/firs/first/
10:01:57 [Steven]
Daniel: I need to have a analysis of what I need first, surely
10:02:02 [Steven]
Fabio: Sure
10:02:30 [Steven]
... but we have to think about what functionalities are available before we can decide how to use them
10:02:55 [Steven]
.... webservices impose certain constraints
10:03:32 [Steven]
[Demo]
10:03:46 [Daniel_S]
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10:03:50 [Steven]
Fabio: Starts with task model, services and annotations, and task binding
10:04:28 [Steven]
... currently we have languages for desktop, mobile, [see slide for full list]
10:04:50 [Daniel_S]
please substitute PUCC by PUC in my affiliation (Pontifical Catholic University)
10:05:02 [Steven]
Pablo: You mentioned 'nomadic'. How do you do that?
10:05:16 [Steven]
Fabio: By adaption, see the demo
10:06:00 [Steven]
s/PUCC/PUC/G
10:08:39 [Steven]
Pablo: You mentioned SMIL. Do you integrate, or just generate?
10:08:57 [Steven]
Fabio: Generate HTML+SMIL
10:09:30 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:09:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
10:10:02 [Steven]
Topic: Run-time role of UI models, Grzegorz Lehmann, DAI-Labor, TU Berlin
10:10:28 [kaz]
i/Topic: Run-time/topic: Session on Model-based Support at Run-Time (Adaptation, Migration)/
10:13:44 [Steven]
[Postponed till later]
10:13:53 [Steven]
Topic: Migratory User Interfaces with MARIA, Fabio Paternò, Carmen Santoro, ISTI, CNR
10:15:53 [Steven]
Carmen: Continuing from Fabio's talk
10:16:53 [Steven]
... motivation is multi-device, without having to restart when changing device
10:17:16 [Steven]
... domains such as shopping, bidding in auctions, games, making reservations
10:18:44 [Steven]
... our system does a migration request
10:19:09 [Steven]
... and then there is transformation to obtain a UI adapted for the new device, while keeping state
10:20:07 [Steven]
... we generate the UI at runtime, automatically
10:20:54 [Steven]
... migrating does a reverse step
10:21:21 [Steven]
... to obtain the semantics and state, which is used to generate the new interface
10:22:08 [Steven]
Steven: Why do you need the reverse step?
10:22:23 [Steven]
Carmen: We need to reason about the web page being used
10:23:42 [Steven]
Carmen: Migration does a device discovery,
10:23:59 [Jochen]
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10:24:20 [Steven]
... this uses a proxy server
10:24:29 [Steven]
... that captures the state
10:26:11 [Steven]
Steven: So you are migrating any app on the web, not just your own?
10:26:19 [Steven]
Fabio: That is right.
10:26:32 [Steven]
Steven: OK, now I understand the answer to my earlier questions
10:26:41 [Steven]
s/questions/question/
10:27:15 [Steven]
[Diagram of semantic redesign stage]
10:28:04 [Steven]
Carmen: This is followed by a splitting step if needed to reduce the amount of screen space needed
10:28:30 [Steven]
... the user can customise the transformation step if needed
10:28:57 [Steven]
[Example migration of a pacman game]
10:29:48 [Steven]
Carmen: On the mobile device there is a dialogue requesting the migration
10:30:02 [Steven]
... and the game is represented on two pages
10:30:33 [Steven]
Carmen: It is possible to migrate only parts of an application
10:30:43 [Steven]
... this needs interaction from the user
10:30:52 [Steven]
... to identify which parts are migrated
10:31:04 [Steven]
[Example partial migration]
10:31:27 [Steven]
Carmen: The user selcts parts of the page for migration
10:31:34 [Steven]
s/selc/selec/
10:32:04 [Steven]
Carmen: and only those parts are migrated
10:32:52 [lehmann]
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10:33:32 [Steven]
Steven: So the parts that are not migrated are hardwired into the migrated version?
10:33:34 [Steven]
Fabio: Yes
10:33:56 [Steven]
[Video of migration support]
10:34:43 [Steven]
Carmen: This is migrating the W3C home page partially to a mobile device
10:35:22 [Steven]
... as the user selects parts of the page for migration, it gets highlighted on the screen
10:36:12 [Steven]
... the generation produced more than one page.
10:36:31 [Steven]
Pablo: This works for HTML, how about Flash?
10:36:33 [Steven]
[laughter]
10:36:56 [Steven]
Dave: How about simultaneous interaction with more than one device?
10:37:01 [Steven]
Carmen: We are working on this
10:37:24 [Steven]
zzz: I didn't understand the semantic reengineering
10:37:39 [Steven]
... how do you do it?
10:37:53 [Steven]
Carmen: We have rules to map concrete description to semantics
10:40:17 [Steven]
zzz: Can this be standardised?
10:40:27 [Steven]
Dave: Let's make that a discussion point for tomorrow
10:40:35 [Steven]
[LUNCH]
10:40:40 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:40:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
11:49:38 [Jochen]
Jochen has joined #mbui
11:51:33 [dsr]
topic: Run-time role of UI models, Grzegorz Lehmann
11:51:36 [dsr]
scribe: dsr
11:51:44 [Steven]
Present+Kaz_Ashimura, Katsuhiko_Kageyamu, Toru_Kobayashi, Hiroyuki_Sato, Claudio_Venezia, Pavel_Kolkarek, Jochen_Fiey
11:53:15 [Steven]
Present+Nacho_Marin, Javier_Rodriguez, Javier_Munoz, Michael_Nebeling, Yogesh_Deshparde, Jean-Loup_Comeliau
11:54:09 [Daniel_S]
Daniel_S has joined #mbui
11:54:43 [Steven]
Present+Grzgorz_Lehmann, Carmen_Santoro, Lucio_Davide_Spano, Florian_Probst, Patric_Girard, Giorgio_Brajnik, Jaroslav_Pullmann
11:54:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:54:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
11:55:01 [kaz]
s/Kageyamu/Kageyama/
11:55:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html kaz
11:55:11 [dsr]
Keep the design time models at run time to support adaptation.
11:56:30 [Steven]
s/Present+Pablo Cesar/Present+Pablo_Cesar/
11:56:36 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:56:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
11:57:40 [dsr]
One kind of adaptation is moving an application dynamically from one device to another.
11:58:03 [dsr]
This can even involve "following" the user around the home.
11:59:52 [dsr]
This occurs without losing the interaction state of the user interface
12:01:59 [dsr]
This involves propagating user interface events up the abstraction layers, and similarly reifying actions down through the layers. This requires considerable flexibility in the models.
12:02:14 [fpatern]
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12:03:52 [dsr]
This creates challenges for what can be defined at design time given the need for adaptation at run time. e.g. the size of buttons
12:05:02 [dsr]
Jaroslav: we seem to be missing something at the concrete to final UI levels.
12:05:24 [fpatern]
Question: what about the final user interface in the models considered?
12:05:43 [dsr]
Grzegorz: it is hard to define the boundary between the two...
12:06:28 [dsr]
Users can influence this e.g. distributing different parts of the UI to different devices.
12:07:18 [dsr]
Designers can set some constraints on the preferred UI, but this is not hard and fast.
12:07:49 [Steven]
s/Deshparde/Deshpande/
12:08:04 [dsr]
Daniel: your models don't have the values.
12:08:21 [dsr]
Jose: the models have variables for say button sizes, right?
12:08:36 [dsr]
Grzegorz: yes, but the value is determined at run-time
12:08:53 [Daniel_S]
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12:09:15 [fpatern]
Fabio: the use of reverse engineering techniques would allow the models to know the actual values of the interface element properties
12:09:44 [dsr]
Daniel: most designers today don't think in terms of preferences and constraints.
12:09:58 [dsr]
Steven: they think in terms of pixel sizes which is a problem for adaptation.
12:10:34 [dsr]
Question: to what level do you model the user?
12:11:06 [dsr]
Grzegorz: we have a limited set. e.g. adult vs child. or left vs right handed.
12:11:14 [Steven]
s/sizes/perfection/
12:11:29 [dsr]
Does the approach learn from experience?
12:11:39 [dsr]
Not yet, that could be done in future work.
12:11:49 [Steven]
My point is that we need a new generation of designers who understand about fluid design
12:12:11 [Steven]
where they think in terms of 'house style' rather than pixel perfection
12:12:28 [Steven]
s/about //
12:13:35 [dsr]
New devices provide new services (adds Jaroslav) as a point of extension
12:13:55 [dsr]
Questions: performance problems?
12:14:11 [Steven]
s/Grzgorz/Grzegorz/
12:14:30 [dsr]
Grzegorz: currently we rely on a central server which tracks the whole environment, the devices are treated as being fairly stupid
12:15:00 [dsr]
Kaz: who picks the manager?
12:15:50 [dsr]
Dave: or it could even be in the "cloud"
12:16:48 [dsr]
Topic: How can cloud computing ... (NTT)
12:18:00 [dsr]
Cloud computing can help with automatic Web UI migration.
12:21:19 [dsr]
Analogy with VNC which distributes UI as image tiles + UI events
12:21:39 [dsr]
Cloud based models can then be used to update the UI as needed.
12:22:06 [dsr]
Our lab has developed a virtual smart phone which runs in the cloud.
12:23:18 [dsr]
We now want to see how MBUI approaches can be used with this approach.
12:23:31 [dsr]
Fabio: doesn't this introduce latency issues?
12:24:58 [dsr]
The mobile devices have good processing, so what use cases are particularly suited to the cloud-based approach?
12:25:35 [dsr]
Answer: good for security as well as less dependent on device capabiltiies
12:26:24 [dsr]
This reduces the burden for getting applications to work of different devices.
12:27:31 [dsr]
We can take advantage of different device sensors, e.g. accelerometer, compass, temperature, location etc.
12:28:42 [dsr]
Jaroslav: this also makes it easier for users, since they don't have to download and install new apps.
12:29:27 [dsr]
(downside is lack of support for offline apps)
12:30:17 [dsr]
Topic: MyMobileWeb: A pragmatic approach to MBUIs, Ignacio Marín
12:32:42 [dsr]
Heterogeneity of mobile devices presents challenges to developers, also users want to do different things from desktop users.
12:37:47 [dsr]
MyMobileWeb is an open source framework for rapid development of mobile web apps and portals
12:38:08 [hiroyuki]
hiroyuki has joined #MBUI
12:39:01 [dsr]
We make use of W3C specs such as SCXML and XForms.
12:40:35 [dsr]
We support synchronization for the delivery context between devices and servers.
12:41:24 [dsr]
We use DISelect and a XHTML like syntax but at a higher level.
12:42:03 [dsr]
CSS is used to map the abstract UI to concrete UI levels
12:43:40 [hiroyuki]
hiroyuki has joined #MBUI
12:43:45 [dsr]
Our root element is <ideal>. The content model starts with resources and is followed by the ui description.
12:45:03 [dsr]
Different controls e.g. for date/time
12:45:24 [dsr]
Steven: asks for more details on the UI controls in relation to XForms.
12:46:04 [dsr]
The set of UI controls are oriented to the needs of mobile web apps.
12:46:25 [dsr]
e.g. chained menues for a set of mutually dependent menus.
12:48:05 [dsr]
Many extensions in IDEAL2, e.g. maps, media, graphs
12:49:20 [dsr]
SCXML used to specify MyMobileWeb application flow.
12:49:34 [MichaelN]
MichaelN has joined #mbui
12:50:08 [dsr]
We define new IDEAL elements for new UI controls and then map these to delivery formats as appropriate to the delivery context.
12:51:13 [Steven]
I asked why there were inputtime and inputdate controls necessary, when you know from the data that it is a date or time
12:51:32 [Steven]
so that a simple input control should be enough
12:52:05 [dsr]
Answer was syntactic convenience for expression the options involved.
12:54:06 [kaz]
topic: Session on Model-based Approaches in Industrial Contexts
12:54:38 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
12:55:10 [kaz]
topic: Formal ontologies and UI standards - Florian Probst, SAP Research
12:55:19 [kaz]
[ slides: TBD ]
12:55:41 [kaz]
(Levels of Application Integration)
12:56:09 [kaz]
(SoKNNOS Project)
12:57:30 [Steven]
s/KNN/KN/
12:57:47 [kaz]
* how to sync different UIs?
12:58:16 [kaz]
(Why Fomal Semantics are Needed?)
12:58:37 [kaz]
* system with modular UIs
12:59:44 [kaz]
* with semantic support!
13:00:11 [kaz]
* no manual adjustment needed
13:00:19 [dsr]
wrap events with semantic annotations to enable UI components to keep working when raw events change
13:00:49 [kaz]
* semantically annotated events provide mutual understanding
13:01:31 [dsr]
Pablo: we had similar problem, and we used a common data model as a solution.
13:01:51 [dsr]
Florian: common data model doesn't scale.
13:02:03 [Steven]
s/Florian/Pablo/
13:02:30 [Steven]
s/Pablo/Florian/
13:02:52 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
13:03:28 [kaz]
* avoid cross-application dependencies
13:03:43 [kaz]
(Ontrology of User Interfaces and Interactions)
13:03:59 [dsr]
Florian: does an ontology for user interfaces and interactions already exist that we can use as starting point for semantic annotations?
13:04:00 [kaz]
(Separating "Real World" from "System World)
13:04:41 [dsr]
Strict separation between doman models and interaction models.
13:04:54 [Steven]
s/Fomal/Formal/
13:05:07 [kaz]
s/soman/domain/
13:05:24 [kaz]
s/doman/domain/
13:05:51 [kaz]
(Research Challenges)
13:07:06 [kaz]
* there are so many models and description languages, so implementers have to learn various models/languages...
13:07:36 [kaz]
* semantic models for UIs enable dynamic exchange of UIs
13:07:54 [kaz]
s/semantic models/on the other hand, semantic models/
13:08:34 [dsr]
We've found good performance (<2 seconds) even for reasoning over large ontologies.
13:09:01 [Daniel_S]
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13:10:10 [kaz]
Q&A:
13:10:35 [kaz]
jose: @@@ (sorry missed the question)
13:11:02 [kaz]
florian: domain ontology commits abstract models
13:11:42 [dsr]
Fabio: this use of ontologies could be cumbersome, perhaps we could short cut that with some standard models, no?
13:12:17 [dsr]
What is the value of formalizing the ontology?
13:13:00 [dsr]
Florian: I am quite doubtful about many ontologies and prefer semantic rigor
13:14:54 [kaz]
fabio: we don't want to use ontlogy...
13:15:08 [kaz]
florian: we don't stick with ontology
13:15:44 [kaz]
... UI is human created things
13:16:20 [kaz]
... ontology is rather formal
13:18:29 [kaz]
topic: logistics on dinner
13:19:13 [kaz]
19:30 at Via Cavour close to Termini station (northwest side)
13:21:33 [kaz]
topic: LEONARDI, a model based framework for automating GUIs - Jean-Loup Comeliau, W4-Lyria
13:21:48 [kaz]
[ slides: TBD ]
13:22:16 [kaz]
(W4: Presentation)
13:22:37 [kaz]
* LEONARDI GUI
13:22:47 [dsr]
(W4.eu not the next generation of W3C, last W is for workflow!)
13:23:40 [kaz]
(Issues to solve)
13:24:12 [kaz]
* GUI is very important for end users
13:24:24 [dsr]
We're involved in EU projects e.g. Serface and Serenoa, our aim is to add features to our products
13:24:53 [kaz]
* but implementing GUI is comlex and delivering it is expensive
13:25:07 [Steven]
s/comlex/complex/
13:25:30 [dsr]
50% of development cost is related to GUIs (source IEEC)
13:26:01 [kaz]
(LEONARDI Scope)
13:26:12 [kaz]
* MVC construction
13:27:03 [kaz]
(Alternatives)
13:27:51 [kaz]
* programming GUI is expensive
13:28:29 [kaz]
* 4GLs/MDA solutions
13:29:15 [kaz]
* but still have several issues
13:29:49 [kaz]
(Vision)
13:30:07 [kaz]
* proposal: LEONARDI
13:30:17 [kaz]
* driven by business model
13:30:33 [dsr]
W4's product (Leonardi) developers focus on business model, Leonardi deals with technical underpinnings
13:30:34 [kaz]
* (not 0 but) less code
13:31:20 [kaz]
* run-time execution
13:31:30 [dsr]
Java based framework, UI generated by app engine, not a code generation approach
13:31:36 [kaz]
(how does it work?)
13:32:29 [kaz]
* model: XML description of business world
13:33:43 [kaz]
* compose: generate table of action and navigation tree
13:34:30 [kaz]
* speciallize: adding dynamic portion using Java (links to Java codes)
13:34:55 [kaz]
* deploy and execute
13:35:44 [kaz]
- on-the-fly generation of screens
13:35:56 [kaz]
(Architecture)
13:36:26 [kaz]
* various data resources
13:36:35 [kaz]
(Benefits)
13:36:46 [dsr]
Dave thinks about role of RDF triples as abstraction over different data model frameworks
13:37:07 [kaz]
* cheaper and quicker
13:37:37 [kaz]
* also simpler from technical/design viewpoints
13:37:48 [kaz]
(Application types)
13:38:18 [kaz]
(Customers)
13:38:32 [kaz]
Q&A:
13:39:29 [kaz]
* this is destruction of data and behavior
13:40:02 [kaz]
* there is no workflow engine
13:40:34 [kaz]
* distinguish where to transition based on context
13:42:15 [kaz]
[break]
13:42:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html kaz
14:21:52 [Steven]
scribenick: fpatern
14:21:58 [Steven]
Scribe: Fabio
14:34:57 [fpatern]
Usage of open standards in a document-oriented service framework, Jaroslav Pullmann
14:35:24 [Steven]
s/Usage/Topic: Usage/
14:40:02 [Gerrit]
Gerrit has joined #MBUI
14:40:54 [fpatern]
No question
14:40:59 [fpatern]
XForms in the context of MBUI, Steven Pemberton, CWI
14:53:41 [fpatern]
question on accessibility of xforms
14:54:30 [Jochen]
Jochen has joined #mbui
14:54:35 [fpatern]
there is a person
14:56:27 [fpatern]
question about possible ocnvergence between xforms and model-based group
14:56:57 [fpatern]
positive answer: xforms is going to be re-charted and xbl needs improvements
14:59:29 [fpatern]
MBUI and accessibility, Dave Raggett, W3C/ERCIM
14:59:52 [Steven]
s/MBUI/Topic: MBUI/
15:00:21 [Steven]
s/XForms in the context/Topic: XForms in the context/
15:01:26 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html Steven
15:03:31 [fpatern]
http://webdirections.org/
15:05:25 [fpatern]
if model-based approaches would have been adopted then we would not need ARIA
15:10:10 [fpatern]
whether aria taxonomy and roles are motivated by usage in practise
15:18:01 [fpatern]
MBUI for multimodal applications, Kazuyuki Ashimura, W3C/Keio
15:20:55 [Steven]
s/MBUI/Topic: MBUI/
15:22:17 [dsr]
Fabio: we are using X+V in our work on MARIA, is X+V dead?
15:22:43 [dsr]
Is the approach you described (MMI architecture) going to be supported in browsers?
15:23:49 [dsr]
Kaz: Opera has lost interest in X+V and these days is more interested in HTML5 and adding new device APIs to browsers
15:24:29 [dsr]
I am trying to interest browser vendors in multimodality, and not only in HTML5
15:25:37 [dsr]
Jaroslav: role of EMMA as packaging format, right?
15:26:13 [dsr]
Kaz: we need to apply EMMA to wider range of interaction types
15:28:55 [dsr]
EMMA needs to handle different kinds of user input, including binary sensor data
15:34:49 [dsr]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-mbui-minutes.html dsr