IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-05-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:08 [RRSAgent]

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14:57:08 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-irc

14:57:10 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:57:10 [Zakim]

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14:57:12 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

14:57:13 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:13 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:57:13 [trackbot]

Date: 13 May 2010

14:57:29 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started

14:57:35 [Zakim]

+Eric_Carlson

14:58:07 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:58:09 [Zakim]

+John_Foliot

14:58:31 [MikeSmith]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0109.html

14:58:37 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, call Mike

14:58:37 [Zakim]

ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made

14:58:38 [Zakim]

+Mike

14:59:05 [janina]

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janina has joined #html-a11y

14:59:21 [janina]

zakim, call janina

14:59:21 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

14:59:23 [Zakim]

+Janina

14:59:34 [Marco_Ranon]

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14:59:40 [MikeSmith]

Chair: Janina

14:59:54 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

14:59:54 [Zakim]

Janina is being disconnected

14:59:56 [Zakim]

-Janina

14:59:59 [janina]

zakim, call janina

14:59:59 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

15:00:01 [Zakim]

+Janina

15:00:44 [Zakim]

+Cooper

15:00:49 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka

15:00:58 [Zakim]

-Janina

15:01:27 [Marco_Ranon]

Hi All. I can't dial in but I'll be following on irc.

15:02:43 [janina]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:43 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Mike, Cooper, Janina_Sajka

15:03:10 [Marco_Ranon]

Thanks.

15:03:25 [janina]

Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

15:03:25 [janina]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

15:03:25 [janina]

agenda: this

15:03:25 [janina]

agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

15:03:25 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

15:03:26 [janina]

agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates

15:03:28 [janina]

agenda+ CFC re WEBSRT http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0090.html

15:03:30 [janina]

agenda+ Display, Focus, Labels, & Semantics Bugs http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0030.html

15:03:34 [janina]

agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0086.html

15:03:36 [janina]

agenda+ New Business

15:03:38 [janina]

agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe

15:03:40 [janina]

agenda+ be done

15:03:44 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0109.html

15:04:38 [Zakim]

+ +0154558aaaa

15:04:57 [MichaelC]

zakim, +01 is Sean_Hayes

15:04:57 [Zakim]

+Sean_Hayes; got it

15:05:19 [oedipus]

regrets: Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfieffer, Denis_Boudreau, Steve_Faulkner, Kelly_Ford,Ben_Caldwell

15:06:08 [JF]

scribe - JF

15:06:28 [Judy]

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15:06:36 [JF]

greg: use colons instead of dashes

15:06:45 [oedipus]

scribenick: JF

15:06:45 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:06:47 [MichaelC]

scribe: JF

15:06:54 [oedipus]

scribe: John_Foliot

15:06:57 [MichaelC]

zakim, IPcaller is Cynthia_Shelly

15:06:57 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly; got it

15:06:58 [JF]

Action items review

15:06:58 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - items

15:07:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:07:13 [MichaelC]

scribe: JF

15:07:16 [MikeSmith]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

15:07:53 [JF]

Action 25 on Steve

15:07:53 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - 25

15:07:59 [cyns]

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15:08:06 [JF]

Action: 25

15:08:06 [trackbot]

Sorry, bad ACTION syntax

15:08:36 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/25

15:08:37 [JF]

Authoring guidance document - Alt Techniaues

15:09:07 [MichaelC]

close action-25

15:09:07 [trackbot]

ACTION-25 Post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments closed

15:09:18 [JF]

Action-28

15:09:23 [JF]

on greg

15:09:41 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28

15:09:59 [JF]

Greg: decdied that adding this as an apendix will be distracting

15:10:07 [JF]

will continue to work on this in the wiki

15:10:29 [MichaelC]

action-28 due 27 May

15:10:29 [trackbot]

ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 27 May

15:10:37 [JF]

decide to keep open - push the date to may 27

15:11:02 [JF]

2 Actions open, all others in sub-groups

15:11:27 [Zakim]

+??P22

15:11:29 [JF]

Janina: Canvas appears still stuck, awaiting feedback from Apple

15:11:47 [Zakim]

-Mike

15:11:49 [jongunderson]

zakim ??P22 is jon

15:11:55 [jongunderson]

zakim, ??P22 is jon

15:11:55 [Zakim]

+jon; got it

15:12:01 [JF]

still on track for deadline (June 3)

15:12:13 [MikeSmith]

zakim, call Mike

15:12:13 [Zakim]

ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made

15:12:15 [Zakim]

+Mike

15:12:22 [JF]

Windows and Linux seem ok, but don't know about Apple

15:12:25 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-html-a11y-minutes

15:12:33 [Zakim]

-Mike

15:12:54 [JF]

ERic: will talk to Maciej - who promised to get on it

15:13:12 [JF]

Eric: suggests to remnid Maciej on the larger WG call

15:13:40 [JF]

not heard anything from Chaals re: Image-map proposal

15:13:54 [MikeSmith]

zakim, call Mike

15:13:54 [Zakim]

ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made

15:13:56 [Zakim]

+Mike

15:13:58 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas

15:13:59 [JF]

believe both can co-exist

15:14:21 [JF]

ARIA group on track for June 24th

15:14:35 [frankolivier]

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15:14:46 [oedipus]

scribenick: oedipus

15:14:47 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/products/2

15:14:48 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Accessibility_Requirements_of_Media

15:14:50 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MultimediaAccessibility

15:15:12 [oedipus]

JF: had good call yesterday -- needs assessment was the main topic - a11y requirements for media wiki document

15:15:53 [oedipus]

JF: concern that not all user groups not all represented - JBrewer soliciting feedback/input from deafblind community; more feedback from DAISY on architectural structure

15:16:12 [oedipus]

JF: please review media work - break down reqs to bullet and action items this week

15:16:35 [oedipus]

JF: progress being made - Javascript API and TimeText Association - fine, but no active work until reqs doc completed

15:17:12 [oedipus]

JF: other topic we need to discuss is WebSRT -- a lot of activity on list -- hixie did remove WebSRT from W3C version of spec; still in WHAT WG version

15:17:29 [oedipus]

JF: still need to have discussion on what timestamp format or formats will be supported

15:17:30 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:17:53 [oedipus]

JF: will be monitoring listmail on topic - next week, where do we go from here - timed text or WebSRT or both

15:18:15 [JF]

thanks greg

15:18:29 [oedipus]

JS: please review requirements document -- thanks to Sean for compiling: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Accessibility_Requirements_of_Media

15:18:50 [JF]

encourage all to review the Accessibility Requirements doc

15:19:07 [oedipus]

JS: timeline - another week for reqs gathering, then compare with tech currently on table and identifying gaps and reach out to communities to ensure that we are reaching all target audiences

15:19:20 [JF]

Janina: hypertext pf coordinations express great interest of this document

15:19:31 [JF]

requesting a presentation of said in June

15:19:44 [oedipus]

i/scribenick: JF/Janina: hypertext pf/

15:19:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:20:17 [JF]

Discussion of new content (media items) in W3C Spec document

15:20:31 [JF]

draft resolution of last week

15:21:04 [JF]

however events have now made the CfC moot, as Ian removed that text from W3C draft

15:21:23 [JF]

questions of "scope" for the HTML5 docu

15:21:31 [JF]

time formats (Web SRT)

15:21:43 [JF]

likely will split out to a seperate spec document

15:21:44 [oedipus]

i/scribenick+ JF/Janina: hypertext pf/

15:21:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:22:15 [JF]

suggestion to just drop Cfc? non objections

15:22:58 [JF]

Michel has a number of bugs + suggestions on how to deal

15:23:08 [oedipus]

i/scribe: JF/Janina: hypertext pf/

15:23:12 [MichaelC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/att-0030/display_focus_label_semantic.html Bug disposition proposals

15:23:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:24:26 [JF]

MichaelC

15:24:46 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8652

15:24:58 [JF]

Proposed to close bug

15:25:46 [JF]

Janina: announced that we would return to editorial issues on a second pass

15:26:04 [JF]

discussion of length and understandability of the current text

15:26:29 [JF]

Cyns: expressing concern about how this will be received

15:27:03 [JF]

Janina: we should get some successes under our belt before we take on editorial issuse

15:27:20 [JF]

Cyns: we should make a new bug regarding the text

15:27:49 [JF]

Greg: once we get guidance into the ALT document from Steve, then we can add or modify

15:28:23 [JF]

we should be working on advancing STeve's docu, then work on ensuring that conflicting text is modified or removed from the HTML5 Draft

15:29:18 [JF]

MichaelC on 8652, should we close it?

15:30:05 [JF]

Addressed by Text Alternatives proposal

15:30:08 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8657

15:30:10 [oedipus]

ACTION: Cynthia - monitor status of @alt in HTML5 spec; when SteveF's Alt Guidance is published, ensure that what is in SteveF's note supersedes or corrects HTML5 verbiage; propose changes to HTML5 based on SteveF's alt doc

15:30:10 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-44 - - monitor status of @alt in HTML5 spec; when SteveF's Alt Guidance is published, ensure that what is in SteveF's note supersedes or corrects HTML5 verbiage; propose changes to HTML5 based on SteveF's alt doc [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2010-05-20].

15:30:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:30:43 [JF]

related to media - problem with user-agents. If they support media format, and it doesn't load, then it does not present fall-back content

15:31:01 [JF]

MichaelC: should be referred to media sub-group

15:31:31 [JF]

Eric: agrees that this should go to Media sub-grou

15:31:50 [JF]

Assign to: JF (no objections)

15:32:14 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8671

15:32:27 [JF]

beleives has been resolve - should close?

15:32:35 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8673

15:33:09 [JF]

Command element apepars to have different functions, might cause author issues

15:33:20 [JF]

Cyns: has a work item in mapping task-force

15:33:36 [JF]

elements are going to change role based on context

15:33:43 [JF]

beleives that work will address this bug

15:33:57 [JF]

assigned to Cyns, related to mapping sub-group

15:34:03 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8717

15:34:27 [JF]

believe we can accept as Fixed and close this

15:35:02 [JF]

relates to legacy behavior, so we should close

15:35:08 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8723

15:35:18 [JF]

Image map un-specified

15:35:33 [JF]

needs a proposal, but not urgent

15:35:43 [JF]

will assign to Chaals with deadline

15:36:03 [JF]

if nothing in, then close without prejeduce

15:36:13 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:36:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith

15:36:42 [JF]

MichaelC: this might be complex, we should likely give hime 4 weeks

15:37:09 [JF]

Deadline of JUne 10, close after that if no proposal

15:37:17 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8738

15:37:42 [JF]

do we want to live with the command api as it exists, or push for role-based support?

15:38:21 [JF]

relates to access element

15:38:52 [JF]

Greg: working on access element proposal by end of this week

15:39:00 [oedipus]

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15:39:02 [JF]

Cyns: sounds like it needs more investigation

15:39:07 [JF]

look at access vs command

15:39:41 [JF]

Cyns looking at command stuff this week - will coordinate with Greg

15:39:49 [JF]

discuss off-line?

15:40:34 [JF]

Cyns: believes they will be taling about cammand stuff in the mapping sub-group in the next week or 2

15:40:36 [oedipus]

cyns, your previously assigned action item is http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/44

15:40:43 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8747

15:41:29 [JF]

MichaelC - propose we close this one - suggests that RDFa can do the job

15:42:02 [JF]

do we want this approach (RDFa) to be put into the spec?

15:42:13 [Zakim]

-jon

15:42:14 [JF]

not 100% accessibility issue

15:42:18 [oedipus]

i/requesting a presentation of said in June/Scribe: JF/

15:42:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:43:05 [JF]

Cyns: don't believe this is for a11y to worry about

15:43:07 [oedipus]

http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/

15:43:40 [oedipus]

-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/ Support for RDFa in HTML4 and HTML5

15:44:31 [JF]

will wait for 2-day call for review of any action items discussed today

15:45:28 [JF]

will ping Manu about 8747

15:45:36 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8750

15:45:53 [JF]

unclear about the hidden attribute

15:46:06 [JF]

is different from the CSS 'hiding' techniques

15:46:11 [JF]

is a non-issue

15:46:23 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

15:46:27 [JF]

will close

15:46:34 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8144

15:47:05 [JF]

MichaelC we should likely 'untrack' it

15:47:20 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8554

15:47:24 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly

15:47:36 [JF]

progress element should be labelable with a label

15:47:50 [JF]

can be done, we should untrack

15:48:27 [oedipus]

http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4530&to=4531

15:48:29 [JF]

Greg: Ian said he would make meter and progress full form controls and move them into that section

15:48:44 [JF]

Janina: we should follow that then

15:49:26 [JF]

they are now albel-able

15:49:39 [JF]

s/albel / label

15:50:12 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8622

15:51:03 [JF]

if we believe that user-agent issues should be in spec, we need an owner ass there is not enough data in the bug

15:51:27 [JF]

MichaelC: believe that this should be in spec, but this could go either way

15:51:32 [janina]

q?

15:51:48 [oedipus]

MikeSmith affirmed that change made to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ that <progress> <meter> and <output> are now labelable with <label>

15:52:16 [JF]

MichaelC: suggest assigning it to Jim Allan or Kelley Ford of UAAG

15:52:49 [JF]

Janina: philosophical question here: does this belong inside the HTML5 spec?

15:53:03 [JF]

MichaelC: feels that this should be in spec

15:53:46 [oedipus]

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/forms.html#the-label-element

15:54:08 [JF]

Janina: perhaps review other items that require further discussion and defer actual action until next time

15:54:13 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8752

15:54:22 [JF]

MichaelC: beleives spec says enough

15:54:31 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8754

15:55:20 [JF]

MichaelC: defines what happens when there is more text than display zone - what happens when you re-size

15:55:42 [JF]

this should be addressed more concrete in spec - related to zooming, overflow, etc.

15:55:53 [JF]

again likely UAAG issue

15:56:23 [oedipus]

JF: would like to re-review and chew on it a bit

15:56:25 [janina]

q?

15:57:03 [JF]

ERic: agrees that this needs more consideration,might be a big change in behavior

15:57:17 [MikeSmith]

oedipus, in regard to what elements the spec defines as being labelable, see http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/forms.html#category-label .. the complete list is currently button input keygen meter output progress select textarea

15:57:18 [JF]

Janina: sounds like we need to return to this point next week

15:57:54 [oedipus]

MikeSmith, thanks for the clarification

15:57:59 [MikeSmith]

np

15:58:02 [JF]

JF: should we request that members of UAAG attend next call?

15:58:18 [JF]

Janina: perhaps send out an email to the group with a heads-up for next week

15:58:47 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/IFRAME

15:58:49 [JF]

MichaelC: will send somthing around

15:59:14 [JF]

Janina: will send out CfC's on the various bugs discussed today - most to close

15:59:50 [oedipus]

-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/IFRAME IFrame Accessibility Inquiry & Fact Gathering wiki page

16:00:01 [JF]

give a couple days for feedback

16:00:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:00:25 [JF]

discussion of survey mechanism

16:00:49 [Laura]

Laura has joined #html-a11y

16:00:59 [JF]

MichaelC: one survey per bug

16:01:21 [JF]

MichaelC will create a survey

16:01:54 [JF]

Janina: some of the questions we are looking at are being canvased at larger working group

16:02:06 [JF]

please and thanks Greg

16:02:12 [Zakim]

-Mike

16:02:23 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

16:02:23 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

16:02:24 [Zakim]

-Sean_Hayes

16:02:25 [Zakim]

-Cooper

16:02:29 [Zakim]

-Janina_Sajka

16:02:31 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

16:02:33 [Zakim]

-Eric_Carlson

16:02:39 [eric_carlson]

eric_carlson has left #html-a11y

16:02:45 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

16:02:47 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended

16:02:49 [Zakim]

Attendees were Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Mike, Janina, Cooper, Janina_Sajka, +0154558aaaa, Sean_Hayes, Cynthia_Shelly, jon, [Microsoft]

16:02:57 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

16:03:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:03:08 [janina]

janina has left #html-a11y

16:03:10 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #html-a11y

16:03:51 [oedipus]

present+ Marco_IRC_only

16:04:02 [oedipus]

present+ Frank_Oliver

16:04:05 [oedipus]

present- +0154558aaaa

16:04:14 [oedipus]

present- [Microsoft]

16:04:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:05:09 [oedipus]

i/Action items review/TOPIC: Action Items Review/

16:05:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:05:57 [oedipus]

i/Canvas appears still stuck/TOPIC: Sub-Group Updates/

16:05:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:07:01 [oedipus]

i/Michel has a number of bugs + suggestions on how to deal/TOPIC: Bug Disposition Proposals/

16:07:54 [oedipus]

s/albel-/label/

16:07:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:10:38 [oedipus]

trackbot, drop ACTION: 25

16:10:38 [trackbot]

Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, drop ACTION: 25'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

16:28:27 [oedipus]

regrets+ Matt_May

16:28:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:29:32 [oedipus]

regrets+ Kenny_Johar

16:29:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus