IRC log of sparql on 2010-05-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:56:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:56:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
13:56:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:56:18 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:56:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:56:19 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 [trackbot]
Date: 11 May 2010
13:56:24 [LeeF]
Agenda: ??
13:56:53 [LeeF]
agenda+ Administration
13:57:00 [LeeF]
agenda+ Negation survey
13:57:08 [LeeF]
agenda+ Document reviews and readiness
13:57:14 [LeeF]
agenda+ Dedicated telecons?
13:57:16 [LeeF]
agenda+ AOB?
13:58:20 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:20 [LeeF]
kasei, do we have any need to talk about the naming issues more on today's TC?
13:58:28 [Zakim]
13:58:35 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P18 is me
13:58:35 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
13:58:44 [Zakim]
13:58:59 [kasei]
I think only if sandro has more to say (and he's not here today, right?)
13:59:21 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aaaa
13:59:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aabb
13:59:49 [OlivierCorby]
Zakim, 49.238.aaaa is me
13:59:49 [Zakim]
sorry, OlivierCorby, I do not recognize a party named '49.238.aaaa'
13:59:56 [kasei]
we could discuss namedgraph vs. namedgraphdescription, but that seems less interesting..
14:00:00 [kasei]
Zakim, aabb is me
14:00:02 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
14:00:14 [OlivierCorby]
Zakim, aaaa is me
14:00:14 [Zakim]
+OlivierCorby; got it
14:00:28 [LeeF]
Regrets: MattPerry, Souri
14:00:44 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:44 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:00:54 [AndyS]
kasei - what do you think? /me will go with what the editor suggests (evenifnamedgraphdescriptionisverylong)
14:01:07 [Zakim]
14:01:09 [kasei]
AndyS, ick! :)
14:01:18 [bglimm]
Zakim, ??P27 is me
14:01:19 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:01:20 [LeeF]
minutes from last week are at -
14:01:27 [kasei]
I prefer just NamedGraph, but NamedGraphDescription certainly seems more accurate.
14:01:32 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:32 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:01:53 [Zakim]
+ +03539149aacc
14:02:02 [AxelPolleres]
trackbot, start meeting
14:02:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:02:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
14:02:06 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
14:02:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:02:07 [trackbot]
Date: 11 May 2010
14:02:14 [LeeF]
zakim, this is SPARQL
14:02:14 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:02:26 [LeeF]
zakim, aacc is AxelPolleres
14:02:26 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres; got it
14:02:31 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres
14:02:44 [AndyS]
Could explain in the text that it describes. It's a pun we use all the time thing and pattern for thing - we talk about triples in a query
14:02:48 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:02:48 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:02:50 [Zakim]
14:03:20 [kasei]
did anyone understand the openlink BINDINGS issue email?
14:03:26 [kasei]
AndyS - yes, true.
14:03:36 [LeeF]
kasei, I asked that it be sent to the WG mailing list, and then I'll give it a close read
14:03:52 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: Axel Polleres
14:04:41 [AxelPolleres]
LeeF: main goal is to check documents for publication, and secondly collect big issues and schedule
14:05:09 [AxelPolleres]
... dedicated task forces/telecons on these issues (Andy's suggestion)
14:05:31 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendm
14:05:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next agendm', LeeF
14:05:33 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:05:33 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Administration" taken up [from LeeF]
14:05:38 [AxelPolleres]
topic: Admin
14:05:43 [LeeF]
minutes from last week -
14:05:50 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:06:13 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:06:27 [LeeF]
next meeting is one week from today May 18
14:06:31 [ivan]
regrets for me
14:06:36 [LeeF]
Sandro to scribe next week
14:06:44 [ivan]
I will be at a meeting in Stockholm
14:06:45 [AxelPolleres]
sandro to scribe next week.
14:07:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.863.aadd
14:07:19 [AxelPolleres]
other admin issues?
14:07:29 [pgearon]
Zakim, aadd is me
14:07:30 [Zakim]
+pgearon; got it
14:07:44 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: rdb2rdf to publish use cases/requirements soon...
14:07:58 [pgearon]
14:07:59 [AlexPassant]
AlexPassant has joined #sparql
14:08:13 [AxelPolleres]
... rdb2rdf discuss whether SPARQL2SQL is a goal or not.
14:08:20 [LeeF]
zakim, close agendum
14:08:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agendum', LeeF
14:08:24 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:08:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Negation survey" taken up [from LeeF]
14:08:30 [Zakim]
14:08:36 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P14 is me
14:08:36 [AxelPolleres]
topic: negation survey
14:08:38 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
14:08:43 [LeeF]
web survey on negation at
14:09:29 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: one response per organisation
14:09:49 [AxelPolleres]
... please agree and reply by monday next week.
14:10:35 [AxelPolleres]
... if appropriate add rationale to your answers, but not obligatory.
14:10:35 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:10:35 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Document reviews and readiness" taken up [from LeeF]
14:10:50 [AxelPolleres]
topic: Document reviews and readiness
14:11:37 [AxelPolleres]
lee: we look at actually publishing end of next week, all docs that are ready, not necessarily all.
14:11:52 [AxelPolleres]
... matt did a review.
14:11:56 [LeeF]
MattPerry's review of query document:
14:12:48 [AxelPolleres]
... looks like no real blockers for publishing in those comments, but some things should be sorted before publication.
14:13:19 [AndyS]
14:13:25 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: I expected this publication to be rather a snapshot.
14:13:47 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: we won't neglect those comments.
14:14:00 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: TODOs have been added.
14:14:16 [LeeF]
PROPOSE: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Query as a Working Draft
14:14:26 [ivan]
14:14:27 [bglimm]
14:14:27 [AxelPolleres]
14:14:39 [OlivierCorby]
14:14:40 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Query as a Working Draft
14:14:47 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: anyone wants to abstain or object?
14:14:51 [AxelPolleres]
no one...
14:15:31 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to remove old working draft snapshots from CVS
14:15:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-233 - Remove old working draft snapshots from CVS [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-18].
14:15:33 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: Editors please check as far as possible the pubrules, will take over overall coordination.
14:15:41 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to coordinate prep and publication of working drafts
14:15:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-234 - Coordinate prep and publication of working drafts [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-18].
14:15:56 [AxelPolleres]
subtopic: update
14:16:28 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: my review will be done this week, hope to decide to publish next week
14:16:56 [LeeF]
return codes discussion:
14:17:03 [AxelPolleres]
Paul: ... discussion about partial LOAD.
14:17:26 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:17:34 [AndyS]
We do say "failure => stop, no further operations attempted"?
14:17:34 [bglimm]
Zakim, bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:17:34 [Zakim]
+bglimm, chimezie; got it
14:17:41 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:17:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant
14:17:43 [AxelPolleres]
... not sure what/how much to say about success/failure here.
14:17:43 [Zakim]
bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:18:18 [chimezie]
Zakim, who is here?
14:18:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, OlivierCorby, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant
14:18:22 [Zakim]
bglimm has bglimm, chimezie
14:18:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see chimezie, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, bglimm, OlivierCorby, AndyS, AxelPolleres, ivan, iv_an_ru, pgearon, karl, kasei, sandro, trackbot
14:18:53 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: we had discussed different failure codes for different failure conditions for protocol
14:19:03 [AndyS]
14:19:08 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
14:19:08 [AxelPolleres]
... do people think we need that or just success/failure?
14:19:36 [pgearon]
14:19:40 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
14:20:09 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: don't mind more sophisticated failure, but some systems may have difficulties determining partial load
14:20:44 [AxelPolleres]
andy, did I get that right?
14:21:18 [LeeF]
AndyS: some systems would have a lot of trouble telling one failure cause from another
14:21:35 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: we can make some suggestions
14:22:10 [AxelPolleres]
14:22:29 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: think simple approach is better for the moment
14:22:47 [LeeF]
ack AxelPolleres
14:23:08 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres: What was Andy's suggestion?
14:23:13 [LeeF]
14:24:59 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: on the protocol level, we have only two overall failures "it's your fault" or "it's my fault" ... more detailed information typically not in HTTP, but in a (rather human readable) messagein the payload of the response.
14:25:47 [AxelPolleres]
LeeF: let's leave it to success failure, but we could give some recommendations on how to specify errors in more detail
14:26:17 [AxelPolleres]
Paul: I'll do it in a day or do, or otherwise keep it in mind.
14:26:23 [bglimm]
I reviewed it
14:26:30 [bglimm]
it's ready I would say
14:26:30 [AxelPolleres]
subtopic: service description
14:26:49 [AxelPolleres]
Leef: We have a review from Birte.
14:26:51 [LeeF]
review from birte:
14:27:40 [AxelPolleres]
... one issue which is stil discussed on the mailinglist concerning naming.
14:27:47 [LeeF]
PROPOSE: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Service Description as Working Draft
14:27:48 [AxelPolleres]
... but we should be ready to publish.
14:27:50 [ivan]
14:27:51 [bglimm]
14:27:53 [AxelPolleres]
14:27:57 [chimezie]
14:27:57 [OlivierCorby]
14:28:08 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Publish SPARQL 1.1 Service Description as Working Draft
14:28:30 [AxelPolleres]
subtopic: http-update
14:28:39 [AxelPolleres]
not discussed last week.
14:28:41 [chimezie]
i don't think we did
14:28:57 [chimezie]
I need feedback about the updates
14:29:03 [chimezie]
regarding Kjetl's comments
14:29:07 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: chime, is it good to be published?
14:29:10 [chimezie]
14:29:28 [AxelPolleres]
... we need a reviewer.
14:29:53 [chimezie]
14:30:06 [chimezie]
was my overview of the updates and there was some more back and forth in the thread
14:30:27 [AxelPolleres]
... open, rewording for ISSUE-49
14:31:16 [chimezie]
I also need to incorporate text regarding fragments in URIs and Base URI resolution also discussed in other threads
14:31:22 [chimezie]
but that was a less contenious issue IMHO
14:31:23 [AxelPolleres]
... reviewer should check the document with respect to the latest changes in response to that mail-thread.
14:31:31 [kasei]
i can look over it
14:31:48 [chimezie]
I will work the changes into the editor's draft
14:31:53 [LeeF]
ACTION: Greg to review HTTP Uniform Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs
14:31:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-235 - Review HTTP Uniform Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs [on Gregory Williams - due 2010-05-18].
14:32:10 [chimezie]
14:32:28 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: Chime, you want to include changes for this publication still?
14:32:28 [chimezie]
14:32:34 [AxelPolleres]
Chime: yes.
14:32:47 [AxelPolleres]
subtopic: Entailment
14:32:50 [bglimm]
Ent. reg. is ready for review
14:33:05 [bglimm]
from my point it's in a good state
14:33:08 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: no reviewer yet.
14:33:26 [bglimm]
Peter Patel Schneider reviewed it
14:33:46 [bglimm]
he mainly looked at the OWL part
14:34:24 [AxelPolleres]
ivan: I can do a review, not sure that's the best, I was quite involved.
14:34:36 [LeeF]
ACTION: Ivan to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Ivan
14:34:36 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:34:39 [AxelPolleres]
... will go through it tomorrow.
14:34:46 [LeeF]
ACTION: ivan to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:46 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
14:34:46 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:34:58 [LeeF]
ACTION: ivan herman to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:34:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
14:34:58 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:35:01 [LeeF]
ACTION: herman to review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness
14:35:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-236 - Review SPARQL 1.1 Entailment document for WD publication readiness [on Ivan Herman - due 2010-05-18].
14:35:35 [AxelPolleres]
subtopic: federated query
14:35:57 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: some open questions still
14:36:20 [ivan]
14:36:22 [AxelPolleres]
... will clarify with Eric, we hold off from publishing right now.
14:36:28 [LeeF]
ack ivan
14:37:34 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: group thinks that fed query SERVICE should be optional. but BINDINGS is something maybe more important for query.
14:37:54 [AxelPolleres]
... I had assumed that it will be a separate document.
14:38:01 [AxelPolleres]
14:38:34 [LeeF]
ack AxelPolleres
14:38:53 [AndyS]
A brutal C&P and we could add to query doc as an appendix for now.
14:40:28 [LeeF]
straw poll: federated query as own doucment or in query document
14:40:36 [pgearon]
+1 for query
14:40:40 [chimezie]
+1 own document
14:40:41 [kasei]
14:40:42 [AxelPolleres]
Axel: remember we said that we should publish for now as own document, but could later include it (since all queries may be refused)
14:40:44 [bglimm]
+1 own
14:40:44 [AndyS]
0: don't mind
14:40:51 [OlivierCorby]
14:40:56 [AlexPassant]
14:40:58 [LeeF]
+1 own
14:41:01 [ivan]
+0.5 for query
14:41:25 [AxelPolleres]
0 separate for now and include later (like propertypaths), seems fine to me but means extra hurdle of FPWD
14:42:02 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: anything more about the document itself?
14:42:03 [LeeF]
LeeF: I'll talk to Eric about it and propose approach to publishing fed query this week on mailing list
14:42:10 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:42:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Dedicated telecons?" taken up [from LeeF]
14:42:51 [LeeF]
AxelPolleres: Talk to Eric also about the discussion re: variables in SERVICE
14:42:57 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: will check with Eric about the minutes two weeks ago.
14:43:32 [AxelPolleres]
... regarding variables for SERVICE, some remark should have been added at least to the doc.
14:44:00 [AxelPolleres]
topic: issues and schedule
14:44:07 [LeeF]
potential topics:
14:44:10 [LeeF]
* update formal model
14:44:19 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: we collect topics and organis dedicated telconfs.
14:44:27 [LeeF]
* property paths open questions (duplicates, cycles, negated paths)
14:44:37 [LeeF]
* building test cases
14:45:45 [AxelPolleres]
* Dminus entailment (probably this is a minor/time allowed one)
14:46:07 [bglimm]
D Entailment without RDFS entailments
14:46:26 [bglimm]
14:46:39 [bglimm]
but muted (sitting in a loud hotel lobby)
14:47:05 [LeeF]
Who would try to attend a dedicated TC on an update formal model?
14:47:08 [pgearon]
14:47:09 [AxelPolleres]
14:47:11 [LeeF]
14:47:13 [AndyS]
14:47:48 [LeeF]
Who would try to attend a dedicated TC on property paths open issues?
14:47:57 [ivan]
14:47:59 [LeeF]
14:47:59 [kasei]
14:47:59 [pgearon]
14:48:01 [OlivierCorby]
14:48:01 [AndyS]
14:48:05 [AlexPassant]
14:48:05 [AxelPolleres]
14:48:07 [bglimm]
14:48:15 [chimezie]
0.5 (not certain)
14:48:41 [LeeF]
Who would try to attend a dedicated TC for building out test cases?
14:48:44 [LeeF]
14:48:45 [AxelPolleres]
14:48:46 [kasei]
+1 time permitting
14:48:48 [AndyS]
14:48:48 [bglimm]
14:48:57 [OlivierCorby]
14:49:09 [AndyS]
(but not *doing* all test cases)
14:49:25 [AxelPolleres]
LeeF: will try to set up doodle or alike
14:49:55 [LeeF]
Who would try to attend a dedicated TC for Dminus entailment?
14:49:57 [ivan]
14:49:58 [AxelPolleres]
14:49:58 [bglimm]
14:50:02 [chimezie]
14:50:31 [LeeF]
zakim, next agendum
14:50:31 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "AOB?" taken up [from LeeF]
14:50:31 [ivan]
14:50:41 [AxelPolleres]
topic: AOB
14:51:14 [bglimm]
14:51:14 [chimezie]
good bye
14:51:17 [Zakim]
14:51:18 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
14:51:18 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
14:51:18 [Zakim]
14:51:19 [pgearon]
14:51:24 [Zakim]
14:51:26 [Zakim]
14:51:27 [Zakim]
14:51:32 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: next week, we will finish WD's conversation and other issues arising on the mailinglist. adjourned.
14:51:35 [Zakim]
14:51:38 [Zakim]
14:51:47 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
14:52:02 [AxelPolleres]
regrets: Matt Perry
14:52:45 [AxelPolleres]
chair: Lee Feigenbaum
14:53:01 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
15:01:14 [sandro]
news is so funny. I googled for "w3c rif news" and found "New Rule Interchange Format (W3C RIF) Standard Published" Compared to that, where is the news in a Proposed Recommendation? :-)
15:02:06 [sandro]
(I guess this was a press release from the RuleML folks.)
15:13:47 [Zakim]
15:14:47 [sandro]
(oops wrong channel)
15:32:57 [OlivierCorby]
OlivierCorby has left #sparql
15:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, AxelPolleres, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
15:35:05 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:35:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were AndyS, Lee_Feigenbaum, +49.238.aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb, kasei, OlivierCorby, +03539149aacc, AxelPolleres, Ivan, +1.312.863.aadd, pgearon, AlexPassant, bglimm, chimezie
15:55:48 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #sparql
15:58:16 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
16:00:54 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
16:39:45 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to coordinate dedicated teleconferences
16:39:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-237 - Coordinate dedicated teleconferences [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-05-18].
16:53:53 [kasei]
is there a reason the fed editor's draft isn't linked from the wiki sidebar?
16:56:46 [LeeF]
16:56:56 [LeeF]
...and i never remember how to edit the sidebar :)
16:59:19 [LeeF]
OK, made this update
17:07:17 [kasei]
hrm. I thought BINDINGS was supposed to be the last thing in the query so it could be streamed but the fed draft says it comes right after the where GGP...
17:08:05 [kasei]
i.e. before SolutionModifier
17:16:18 [LeeF]
yeah, Andy brought that up and we had consensus that it should be changed
17:16:23 [LeeF]
one of the things on my list to talk to EricP about
17:16:25 [LeeF]
along with
17:16:28 [LeeF]
* no BINDINGS in update
17:16:36 [LeeF]
* is BINDINGS a required part of SPARQL query?
17:16:44 [kasei]
ah, ok. i missed that.
17:16:55 [LeeF]
* discussion of variables in SERVICE
17:17:23 [kasei]
all these things that we've talked about and I thought we had resolved... :)