IRC log of ua on 2010-05-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:40:48 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:40:48 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-irc
16:40:50 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:40:50 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:40:52 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:40:52 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
16:40:53 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:40:53 [trackbot]: Date: 06 May 2010
16:44:31 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/
16:44:33 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ inviting Chrome to meeting
16:44:34 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html
16:44:36 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ Comments on last public working draft
16:44:38 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers
16:44:39 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ HTML 5 and the user agent
16:58:14 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
16:59:40 [sharper]: sharper has joined #ua
16:59:56 [sharper]: zakim, code?
16:59:56 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:00:03 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:38 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:45 [Zakim]: + +1.512.206.aaaa
17:00:54 [AllanJ]: Chair: Jim_Allan
17:01:15 [AllanJ]: zakim, aaaa is really allanj
17:01:15 [Zakim]: +allanj; got it
17:01:22 [Zakim]: + +1.425.895.aabb
17:01:35 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:01:38 [jeanne]: zakim, code?
17:01:38 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:01:46 [AllanJ]: zakim, aabb is really Greg
17:01:46 [Zakim]: +Greg; got it
17:01:53 [Zakim]: +??P7
17:01:55 [sharper]: zakim, ??P7 is sharper
17:01:59 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
17:02:05 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:02:14 [AllanJ]: zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford
17:02:17 [Zakim]: +kford; got it
17:03:21 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:03:30 [Zakim]: + +1.617.325.aacc
17:04:10 [AllanJ]: zakim, aacc is really kimpatch
17:04:11 [Zakim]: +kimpatch; got it
17:05:25 [AllanJ]: scribe: greg
17:05:38 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda
17:05:38 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
17:05:43 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda?
17:05:43 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:05:44 [Zakim]: 1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from AllanJ]
17:05:47 [Zakim]: 2. inviting Chrome to meeting [from AllanJ]
17:05:49 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
17:05:53 [Zakim]: 4. Comments on last public working draft [from AllanJ]
17:05:54 [Zakim]: 5. Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers [from AllanJ]
17:05:57 [Zakim]: 6. HTML 5 and the user agent [from AllanJ]
17:06:04 [AllanJ]: zakim, close item 1
17:06:04 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/, closed
17:06:06 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:06:07 [Zakim]: 2. inviting Chrome to meeting [from AllanJ]
17:06:58 [Greg]: As Simon reported in email, a representative from Chrome is willing to participate but has a conflict during our scheduled conference calls.
17:07:49 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:07:54 [AllanJ]: zakim, open item 2
17:07:54 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "inviting Chrome to meeting" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:08:29 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:09:38 [AllanJ]: zakim, IPcaller is really mhakkinen
17:09:38 [Zakim]: +mhakkinen; got it
17:10:00 [Greg]: The Chrome representative is Jonas Klink, who is based out of California.
17:10:10 [Greg]: Discussion of possibility of rescheduling our conference calls to accommodate Jonas.
17:13:42 [AllanJ]: Zakim, close item 2
17:13:42 [Zakim]: agendum 2, inviting Chrome to meeting, closed
17:13:43 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:45 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
17:14:01 [AllanJ]: zakim, open item 6
17:14:01 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "HTML 5 and the user agent" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:14:59 [Greg]: Jim reports that the HTML5 Accessibility Task Force had a lot of discussion about what user agents do and might do.
17:15:22 [Greg]: Email from Mark and Jim to the task force got a lot of discussion going.
17:16:34 [Greg]: Some people on the task force do not understand the inherent problem of many authors creating custom controls, rather than using standardized controls inherent in the browser.
17:17:26 [Greg]: We need to provide them with good use cases demonstrating the importance of keyboard access.
17:17:32 [kford]: kford has joined #ua
17:18:47 [Greg]: Kim described speech input users who use assistive technology that does input as a keyboard emulator rather than through an accessibility API.
17:20:02 [Greg]: This approach of keyboard emulation uses of existing knowledge, keeps a common language, etc.
17:22:48 [Greg]: W3 is holding a brainstorming session where papers are presented and discussed. One is coming up on keyboard access, and Judy Brewer suggested WAI being involved.
17:23:34 [Greg]: Kim submitted a proposal to present on real-world use cases.
17:24:04 [Greg]: These would be centered around speech input users.
17:28:27 [Greg]: The topic of the meeting is "W3C Workshop on conversational applications, use cases and requirements for new models of human language to support mobile conversational systems".
17:29:05 [AllanJ]: W3C Workshop on Conversational Applications http://www.w3.org/2010/02/convapps/cfp
17:31:22 [Greg]: There is also another workshop coming up on augmented reality.
17:31:42 [kford]: Wow! Can I have that one?
17:32:38 [kford]: kford has joined #ua
17:33:47 [Greg]: Simon reports that Jonas Klink of Chrome will join our conference call on May 20.
17:33:48 [kford]: /me Simon ask him if the AT support update is out by chance?
17:35:09 [AllanJ]: zakim, close this
17:35:09 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'close this', AllanJ
17:35:12 [kford]: Agend item next week, prep for Chrome visit on 5/20.
17:35:20 [AllanJ]: zakim, close item 6
17:35:20 [Zakim]: agendum 6, HTML 5 and the user agent, closed
17:35:21 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:35:23 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
17:35:41 [AllanJ]: zakim, adenda?
17:35:41 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, AllanJ.
17:35:47 [AllanJ]: zakim, agenda?
17:35:47 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:35:48 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
17:35:50 [Zakim]: 4. Comments on last public working draft [from AllanJ]
17:35:52 [Zakim]: 5. Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers [from AllanJ]
17:36:57 [AllanJ]: zakim, open next
17:36:57 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:39:29 [AllanJ]: related to action-338
17:40:09 [AllanJ]: also related to action-345
17:40:26 [Greg]: Simon says it was ACTION-345 which refers to the original number of 3.3.2
17:41:23 [AllanJ]: gl: what is the plan for moving forward on this
17:41:45 [mhakkinen]: ,y mute button is broke
17:41:53 [mhakkinen]: touch screen phone
17:42:00 [mhakkinen]: !!!!!
17:42:56 [Greg]: Simon notes there were many responses on the survey and in email.
17:43:36 [Greg]: Decision was made in April to move 3.3.2 to 4.7; now Simon's is a draft rewrite.
17:45:23 [AllanJ]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/
17:49:36 [AllanJ]: discussion of ANSI and ISO, 4.7.x is unique, the concept it represents does not exist in ANSI, ISO
17:49:45 [Greg]: Greg noted that this is an example of something new, with no equivalents in ISO 9241-171 and ANSI 200.2.
17:53:21 [Greg]: Simon notes the person in charge of interaction domain says decentralized accessibility is important and will move forward, contrary to earlier indications.
17:55:43 [Zakim]: -Greg
17:55:50 [kford]: Scribe: KFord
17:57:37 [kford]: Simon: We need to mitigate against this decentralized accessibility is to make relationship explicit to the access technology.
17:58:03 [kford]: MH: Sounds like a perfect case for ARIA.
17:58:41 [kford]: MH: I think ARIA is implied by the fact that the content needs to provide basic role and description info.
17:59:07 [kford]: MH: This is either by using an existing element or if you are using somethinng new adding ARIA.
17:59:41 [kford]: MH: I agree this needs to be explicit and made clear in the techniques.
18:00:11 [kford]: JA: Simon it sounds like you are asking for a JavaScript API to communicate with the accessibility API.
18:00:49 [kford]: rrsagent, amke minutes
18:00:49 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:00:58 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html kford
18:01:22 [kford]: JA: Head spinning on implications of some of this.
18:02:41 [sharper]: http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0430-www2010-plh/decen.html
18:02:51 [kford]: Simon: I think we need some space in the agenda to brain storm and think about all of this.
18:03:42 [kford]: JA and JS talking about getting people from this space to talk. JS to take point.
18:04:26 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to talk to Dave Raggett and/or PLH about speaking to UAWG on Decentralized Extensibility to help us craft success criteria for this.
18:04:26 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-383 - Talk to Dave Raggett and/or PLH about speaking to UAWG on Decentralized Extensibility to help us craft success criteria for this. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-05-13].
18:07:14 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:14 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html kford
18:08:08 [kford]: Group talks more about this issue and what it means.
18:10:26 [AllanJ]: whatever the author does somehow the roles, states, models, etc must be made explicit to the accessibility api
18:11:21 [mhakkinen]: +q
18:11:53 [kford]: JA: This seems like XML but people don't want to write XML.
18:11:59 [kford]: ack
18:12:06 [AllanJ]: ack mhakkinen
18:12:43 [kford]: MH: I think back to something we did in daisy. The key is that someone, ideally the origianl author, has to provide human readable labels for this.
18:13:12 [AllanJ]: need extensible ARIA
18:13:28 [kford]: JA: ARIA happens in the browser right?
18:13:35 [kford]: MH: Yes.
18:15:50 [AllanJ]: the author creates some new tag and behaviour, the author should be made to write aria extension, so the proper information is written to the accessibility API
18:17:24 [kford]: Group talking more about implications here.
18:19:37 [AllanJ]: action: ja to review extensible aria, decentralized extensibility and guidleline 2
18:19:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-384 - Review extensible aria, decentralized extensibility and guidleline 2 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-05-13].
18:20:12 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:20:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html kford
18:20:36 [kford]: zakim agenda ?
18:20:52 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
18:20:52 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:20:54 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
18:20:57 [Zakim]: 4. Comments on last public working draft [from AllanJ]
18:20:59 [Zakim]: 5. Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers [from AllanJ]
18:21:16 [kford]: zakim, take up item 5
18:21:16 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:21:35 [kford]: JA reminds about syntax to send to list for actions.
18:21:42 [kford]: zakim, close item 5
18:21:42 [Zakim]: agendum 5, Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers, closed
18:21:45 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:21:47 [Zakim]: 3. 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0021.html [from AllanJ]
18:22:45 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:22:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html kford
18:26:15 [Zakim]: -mhakkinen
18:26:17 [Zakim]: -kford
18:26:18 [Zakim]: -sharper
18:26:19 [Zakim]: -allanj
18:26:19 [Zakim]: -kimpatch
18:26:44 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:26:45 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:26:47 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, allanj, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, sharper, Jeanne, kford, +1.617.325.aacc, kimpatch, mhakkinen
18:27:50 [AllanJ]: zakim, please part
18:27:50 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:28:21 [AllanJ]: present: Jim, Kelly, Greg, Jeanne, Simon, Mark, Kim
18:28:38 [AllanJ]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:38 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:30:50 [AllanJ]: action: Jeanne to add item to survey - simon propose wording for 4.7x (formerly 3.3.2) 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy: The user can view the path of nodes leading
18:30:51 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-385 - Add item to survey - simon propose wording for 4.7x (formerly 3.3.2) 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy: The user can view the path of nodes leading [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-05-13].
18:30:52 [AllanJ]: from the root of any content hierarchy in which the structure and
18:30:53 [AllanJ]: semantics are implied by presentation, as opposed to an explicit logical
18:30:55 [AllanJ]: structure with defined semantics (such as the HTML5 Canvas Element), or
18:30:56 [AllanJ]: as a consequence of decentralized-extensibility (such as the HTML5 item
18:30:58 [AllanJ]: / itemprop microdtata elements), and only if the user agent keeps an
18:30:59 [AllanJ]: internal model of the hierarchy which it does not expose via the DOM or
18:31:01 [AllanJ]: some other accessibility mechanism. (Level A).
18:31:35 [AllanJ]: action: jeanne to add item to survey moving 3.3.1 to 4.7y
18:31:35 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-386 - Add item to survey moving 3.3.1 to 4.7y [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-05-13].
18:31:48 [AllanJ]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:48 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:32:02 [AllanJ]: rrsagent, please part
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-actions.rdf :
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to talk to Dave Raggett and/or PLH about speaking to UAWG on Decentralized Extensibility to help us craft success criteria for this. [1]
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-irc#T18-04-26
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ja to review extensible aria, decentralized extensibility and guidleline 2 [2]
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-irc#T18-19-37
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jeanne to add item to survey - simon propose wording for 4.7x (formerly 3.3.2) 4.7.x Location in Hierarchy: The user can view the path of nodes leading [3]
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-irc#T18-30-50
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to add item to survey moving 3.3.1 to 4.7y [4]
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-ua-irc#T18-31-35