17:01:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:01:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-tagmem-irc
17:01:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tagmem
17:01:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TAG
17:01:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:01:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:01:45 <trackbot> Date: 06 May 2010
17:01:47 <noah> zakim, who is here?
17:01:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, DanC, Ashok, noah, johnk, raman, trackbot
17:02:01 <Zakim> +DanC
17:02:53 <Zakim> +John_Kemp
17:03:05 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
17:03:10 <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010May/0004.html
17:03:15 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:18 <DanC> chair: noah
17:03:23 <DanC> scribe: DanC
17:03:48 <DanC> Topic: Convene, review agenda and records
17:04:10 <Zakim> +Raman
17:04:26 <jar> jar has joined #tagmem
17:04:33 <noah> zakim, who is here?
17:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, John_Kemp, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Raman
17:04:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see jar, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, Ashok, noah, johnk, raman, trackbot
17:05:02 <Zakim> +TimBL
17:05:22 <DanC> JAR: yes, I can scribe next week
17:05:26 <timbl_> timbl_ has joined #tagmem
17:05:27 <DanC> TVR: regrets next week
17:05:35 <DanC> i.e. 13 May
17:05:36 <johnk_> johnk_ has joined #tagmem
17:06:14 <DanC> NM: proposed to approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/22-minutes.html
17:06:21 <DanC> +1
17:06:37 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
17:06:54 <DanC> Topic: Local arrangements for London F2F
17:06:59 <DanC> q+
17:07:23 <DanC> NM: looks like we'll have group activities Mon, Tue
17:08:12 <DanC> DanC: my travel plans for June have fallen through. Regrets.
17:09:23 <DanC> Topic: W3C Vision
17:09:26 <DanC> action-418?
17:09:26 <trackbot> ACTION-418 -- Noah Mendelsohn to initiate discussion of what the TAG thinks of JJ's proposed scoping work, and whether and if so how the TAG will participate -- due 2010-05-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:09:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/418
17:09:55 <DanC> NM: Jeff Jaffe is organizing task forces around W3C priorities/vision
17:11:36 <DanC> AM: about how much time?
17:11:53 <DanC> NM: sort of email and a few calls model, I think
17:11:59 <DanC> AM: so sporadic?
17:12:10 <DanC> DC: well, no, fairly regular
17:12:20 <noah> I dont think sporadic, but I doubt there's travel, and I assume a call or two a week plus email
17:13:59 <DanC> TBL: what I like to do when looking at things at a high level is reviewing goals and work items and how they relate ... how/why diagrams...
17:14:18 <DanC> ... I think Jeff is looking to the TAG to set out the [goals/missiong?] in terms of the architecture
17:15:39 <timbl_> q+
17:15:46 <noah> ack next
17:15:54 <DanC> TVR: I'm less motivated to put together abstract models of W3C work; I'm more interested in driving actual tasks
17:16:12 <noah> ack next
17:16:58 <noah> q+ to say I >think< jeff means mission at a higher level
17:17:40 <noah> ack next
17:17:41 <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say I >think< jeff means mission at a higher level
17:17:57 <DanC> TBL: yes, there may be some high-level platitudes a la "do good things" but the job here is to figure out which good things
17:18:07 <DanC> TVR: ok, yes
17:18:19 <DanC> ... that's pretty much what I was saying
17:18:53 <DanC> NM: I hear Jeff saying they're crafting higher level prinicples that would help us choose which things to do
17:19:00 <noah> q?
17:20:17 <DanC> AM: I'm willing, but I sympathize with what TVR was saying re concrete/specific work
17:20:55 <DanC> NM: ok, of course you'll bring your own biases; just be clear about them
17:23:08 <DanC> ACTION: Ashok contact Jeff/PLH regarding particiapation in W3C core mission TF
17:23:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-431 - Contact Jeff/PLH regarding particiapation in W3C core mission TF [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2010-05-13].
17:23:40 <DanC> Topic: Overdue Action Items (cont)
17:23:50 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue
17:23:53 <DanC> action-381?
17:23:54 <trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2010-04-16 -- OPEN
17:23:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381
17:24:23 <DanC> action-381 due +3 weeks
17:24:24 <trackbot> ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ due date now +3 weeks
17:24:43 <DanC> action-403?
17:24:43 <trackbot> ACTION-403 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ensure that TAG responds to Murata Makoto's request for RelaxNG Schemas for XHTML (self-assigned) -- due 2010-05-04 -- OPEN
17:24:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/403
17:25:06 <DanC> action-403 due 11 May
17:25:06 <trackbot> ACTION-403 Ensure that TAG responds to Murata Makoto's request for RelaxNG Schemas for XHTML (self-assigned) due date now 11 May
17:25:22 <DanC> action-422?
17:25:23 <trackbot> ACTION-422 -- T.V. Raman to examine the current text of his client state finding and update appropriately with Noah's email from ACTION-353 -- due 2010-04-02 -- OPEN
17:25:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/422
17:26:31 <DanC> TVR: I did that but just didn't send mail
17:27:09 <DanC> NM: you covered the maps case?
17:27:27 <DanC> TVR: I think that's covered by nearby material
17:28:23 <DanC> action NM: review client state finding update w.r.t. maps case
17:28:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-432 - Review client state finding update w.r.t. maps case [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-05-13].
17:28:35 <DanC> action-422: see action-432
17:28:35 <trackbot> ACTION-422 Examine the current text of his client state finding and update appropriately with Noah's email from ACTION-353 notes added
17:29:05 <noah> action-432 due 2010-05-28
17:29:05 <trackbot> ACTION-432 Review client state finding update w.r.t. maps case due date now 2010-05-28
17:29:09 <noah> action-432 due 2010-05-18
17:29:09 <trackbot> ACTION-432 Review client state finding update w.r.t. maps case due date now 2010-05-18
17:29:17 <DanC> action-422?
17:29:17 <trackbot> ACTION-422 -- T.V. Raman to examine the current text of his client state finding and update appropriately with Noah's email from ACTION-353 -- due 2010-04-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:29:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/422
17:29:20 <DanC> action-428?
17:29:20 <trackbot> ACTION-428 -- T.V. Raman to sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility -- due 2010-04-22 -- OPEN
17:29:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/428
17:29:59 <DanC> action-428?
17:29:59 <trackbot> ACTION-428 -- T.V. Raman to sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility -- due 2010-04-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:29:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/428
17:30:15 <DanC> action-430?
17:30:15 <trackbot> ACTION-430 -- Ashok Malhotra to propose a plan for his contributions to section 5: Client-side state -- due 2010-04-29 -- OPEN
17:30:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/430
17:30:40 <DanC> action-430: AM: I've been thinking about this...
17:30:40 <trackbot> ACTION-430 Propose a plan for his contributions to section 5: Client-side state notes added
17:30:46 <DanC> action-420 due +2 weeks
17:30:46 <trackbot> ACTION-420 What is different about xhtml basic 1.1 (in particular re: namespaces) due date now +2 weeks
17:31:16 <DanC> NM: note end of May is about a week before the ftf
17:31:43 <DanC> oops! got that number wrong...
17:31:54 <DanC> ACTION-430 due +2 weeks
17:31:54 <trackbot> ACTION-430 Propose a plan for his contributions to section 5: Client-side state due date now +2 weeks
17:32:46 <DanC> action-420 due 29 Apr
17:32:46 <trackbot> ACTION-420 What is different about xhtml basic 1.1 (in particular re: namespaces) due date now 29 Apr
17:33:00 <DanC> Topic: Writing resources re hyperlinking 
17:33:03 <DanC> action-322?
17:33:03 <trackbot> ACTION-322 -- Dan Connolly to ask W3C management for writing resources re hyperlinking -- due 2010-03-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:33:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322
17:33:17 <noah> DC: I've done it N times
17:33:24 <jar> q+ jar Spoke to Thinh Nguyen about this
17:33:40 <jar> q+ jar to say I spoke to Thinh Nguyen about this
17:33:41 <noah> DC: Recent time I said "punt", nothing will happen, and people went "whoa, not sure I like that"
17:34:06 <DanC> "Personally, I think the issue is too important to ignore but I  
17:34:06 <DanC> appreciate how hard it must be to find the specialised resources to  
17:34:06 <DanC> address it.
17:34:06 <DanC> ---Rotan"
17:34:31 <noah> ack next
17:34:33 <Zakim> jar, you wanted to say I spoke to Thinh Nguyen about this
17:34:41 <DanC> JAR: I talked with Science Commons counsel about this...
17:35:07 <DanC> ... he says there's little/no law in this area; the courts follow the technical standards and the technical community...
17:35:32 <DanC> ... he suggested that the way to make progress in the legal setting is actually to work on specs/standards
17:35:40 <DanC> ... he's willing to speak with us
17:35:52 <DanC> NM: is he in the BOS area?
17:36:20 <DanC> JAR: yes, and he's an IP/copyright/patent laywer
17:37:11 <DanC> DC: sounds like he could be the missing resource we've been looking for; if not to do writing, at least to review and let us know which things are likely to be helpful
17:37:37 <DanC> NM: in these deep linking cases, how do standards get into the conversation?
17:37:49 <DanC> ... do you put stuff like "intended purpose..." in specs?
17:37:56 <DanC> JAR: yes, I gather that's helpful
17:38:49 <DanC> JAR: I'm not sure what the technical scope of the spec would be, but it would have to be reviewed/ratified by the technical community
17:39:02 <DanC> ... Thinh may be able to advise in this area
17:39:57 <DanC> DC: so I could summarize for Thinh
17:40:59 <DanC> ACTION-322: I'll try to summarize for Thinh
17:40:59 <trackbot> ACTION-322 Ask W3C management for writing resources re hyperlinking notes added
17:41:45 <DanC> action-322?
17:41:45 <trackbot> ACTION-322 -- Dan Connolly to ask W3C management for writing resources re hyperlinking -- due 2010-05-13 -- OPEN
17:41:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322
17:42:26 <jar> s/to advise/to help us out/
17:42:28 <DanC> action-322: note "the lengths that sites go to today to disable deep linking."
17:42:28 <trackbot> ACTION-322 Ask W3C management for writing resources re hyperlinking notes added
17:42:51 <DanC> Topic: HTML Language Reference
17:43:06 <DanC> NM: noting LMM's regrets, not sure how far we can get on this...
17:43:13 <DanC> action-379?
17:43:13 <trackbot> ACTION-379 -- Larry Masinter to check whether HTML language reference has been published -- due 2010-03-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:43:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
17:45:32 <DanC> DanC: I've seen interest to publish something a la "HTML 5 syntactic tools" noting schemas, code, test suites, but wouldn't say "this is the golden schema"
17:46:11 <noah> q?
17:46:28 <Ashok> q+
17:46:30 <noah> q+ to say I think this is about a RelaxNG schema that they already have
17:46:44 <DanC> TVR: things have shifted; HTML 5 was once a reaction to everything XML; e.g. "validation? rules? no way." that group feels they've won...
17:46:55 <DanC> ... but there's an appreciation for checking tools
17:47:17 <noah> ack next
17:47:19 <DanC> ... that's the part we should gently encourage... machine processable rules
17:47:57 <DanC> AM: if you allow multiple schemas, you have to show that they accept the same sets of sentences
17:48:12 <noah> ack next
17:48:13 <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say I think this is about a RelaxNG schema that they already have
17:48:16 <DanC> TVR: well, no, I think a good target is a lattice of schemas
17:48:41 <DanC> TVR: take the table/tbody stuff...
17:49:15 <DanC> ... having one schema saying tbody is mandatory and another that says it's optional is sort of OK because [subtleties that are hard to summarize]
17:50:10 <DanC> NM: re moving on from schemas... I got the impression that there _was_ a schema that was being maintained, and we'd encourage publishing it...
17:51:09 <DanC> NM: re multiple schemas... what usually happens is that none of the schemas expresses *exactly* the language... they accept all the valid documents and perhaps some others
17:51:42 <noah> q?
17:52:43 <DanC> NM: so how do we wrap up? well, without LMM and HT, with reluctance, we'll just leave this action pending
17:52:57 <DanC> Topic: HTML5 Doctypes, Media-types, & support for older versions
17:53:13 <johnk_> ACTION-407?
17:53:13 <trackbot> ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:53:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407
17:53:52 <DanC> q+
17:54:26 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/thread.html#msg1131
17:55:04 <noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0103.html
17:55:18 <DanC> same as http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1052.html ?
17:55:49 <DanC> ah... 1052 is too old
17:56:17 <noah> Response from Maciej: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0104.html
17:57:00 <noah> DC: I think we wanted to check that things went well, seems to me they did
17:57:07 <DanC> DC: I'm content with where things are / where they're headed
18:00:03 <DanC> q+
18:00:18 <DanC> NM: so I guess we're done...
18:00:27 <DanC> TVR: well, it seems we've abandoned it
18:00:39 <johnk__> johnk__ has joined #tagmem
18:02:09 <jar> DanC: We have succeeded on this one. It is not abandoned.
18:02:51 <DanC> action-407: indeed, the spec is being updated w.r.t. treatment of HTML 2/3.2/4
18:02:51 <trackbot> ACTION-407 Propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does notes added
18:03:44 <DanC> TVR: isn't the media type registration closely related to the schemas stuff, which we've left in the someday pile?
18:03:46 <noah> zakim, who is here?
18:03:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, John_Kemp, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Raman, TimBL
18:03:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see johnk__, timbl_, jar, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, Ashok, noah, trackbot
18:04:02 <DanC> DanC: well, that's an interesting question, but separate from this one, which is about treatment of HTML 2/3.2/4
18:04:12 <DanC> Topic: CVS Hints for TAG Members
18:04:15 <DanC> action-384?
18:04:15 <trackbot> ACTION-384 -- Noah Mendelsohn to cVS usage edits -- due 2010-05-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:04:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/384
18:04:47 <DanC> NM: done in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/coordination/TAGGuide.html
18:04:59 <DanC> ... 14 April 2009 
18:05:05 <DanC> close action-384
18:05:05 <trackbot> ACTION-384 CVS usage edits closed
18:06:14 <DanC> close action-407
18:06:14 <trackbot> ACTION-407 Propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does closed
18:06:28 <DanC> Topic: pending actions
18:06:56 <DanC> close action-418
18:06:56 <trackbot> ACTION-418 Initiate discussion of what the TAG thinks of JJ's proposed scoping work, and whether and if so how the TAG will participate closed
18:08:25 <DanC> Topic: stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility
18:08:27 <raman> raman has joined #tagmem
18:08:31 <DanC> action-428?
18:08:31 <trackbot> ACTION-428 -- T.V. Raman to sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility -- due 2010-04-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:08:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/428
18:08:54 <noah> q+ to talk about dist extensibility and RDFa 1.1
18:09:04 <DanC> TVR: I wonder if "distributed extensibility" is a useful term; perhaps XML/HTML unification
18:09:13 <noah> ack next
18:09:24 <noah> ack next
18:09:26 <Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk about dist extensibility and RDFa 1.1
18:10:00 <DanC> NM: there was a lot of discussion about RDFa 1.1 at WWW2010...
18:10:03 <timbl_> b
18:10:13 <DanC> ... I think they have a draft that uses head/@profile
18:10:51 <DanC> ... also, facebook has initiated stuff with RDFa and namespaces...
18:11:09 <noah> q?
18:12:00 <DanC> ... though a developer of the facebook stuff was there and said they expect missing namespaces and they expect to make up the difference
18:12:12 <raman> subject: Apr 22 .   me - [ISSUE-41: Facebook open graph protocol]
18:12:26 <noah> q+
18:12:30 <DanC> TVR: note mail of Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:09:20 -0700 with details
18:12:55 <noah> ack next
18:12:57 <timbl_> q?
18:12:59 <noah> q+ raman
18:13:19 <DanC> TBL: they are producing RDFa, though they're perhaps not using RDF best practices... thought they're just a few rules away
18:13:25 <DanC> s/thought/though/
18:14:06 <timbl_> q+
18:14:08 <noah> ack next
18:14:12 <noah> ack next
18:14:14 <DanC> NM: what's interesting to me is that just when the HTML 5 people were saying "nobody will use these namespace things", facebook goes and uses them
18:14:59 <DanC> TBL: there's the question of whether people will write code that recovers from missing namespace declarations
18:15:09 <DanC> [I wonder if they handle prefixes other than go:]
18:15:22 <noah> I thought they made some use of dc:
18:17:52 <jar> timbl: The facebook RDFa has the problem that there are statements that are about things that the page is about, but they are instead written as statements about the page.
18:18:57 <jar> q?
18:19:44 <DanC> TBL: how about talking with Microsoft's AC rep re extensibility support?
18:19:49 <DanC> TVR: yeah... good idea...
18:19:52 <jar> q+ jar to express desire for brainstorming session
18:19:57 <noah> ack next
18:19:58 <Zakim> jar, you wanted to express desire for brainstorming session
18:21:31 <DanC> JAR: I can imaging ftf brainstorming about this would be useful
18:21:43 <DanC> ... even over breaks
18:23:54 <DanC> close action-428
18:23:54 <trackbot> ACTION-428 Sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility closed
18:25:10 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0038.html
18:25:20 <johnk_> johnk_ has joined #tagmem
18:25:21 <noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0040.html
18:25:56 <noah> > The TAG, under the leadership of Tim create a small focused
18:25:56 <noah> >    task-force charged with fixing XML namespaces to bring about
18:25:56 <noah> >    convergence of HTML and XML.
18:27:16 <DanC> TBL: yes, that makes sense, though we should be careful not to pre-judge which things will change
18:27:56 <DanC> ... I'm heartened by the optimism about getting these things together
18:29:09 <DanC> TBL polls for interest in participation... NM and TVR express interest
18:29:40 <DanC> NM: I'm particularly interested in a consensus that goes beyond the TAG
18:29:55 <DanC> TVR: yes, of course
18:30:37 <DanC> TBL: in fact, the suggestion is to "hatch" it outside the TAG
18:31:49 <Zakim> -TimBL
18:32:05 <DanC> ACTION DanC: help Tim get in touch with staff etc. re XML/HTML unification
18:32:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-433 - Help Tim get in touch with staff etc. re XML/HTML unification [on Dan Connolly - due 2010-05-13].
18:32:12 <timbl__> timbl__ has joined #tagmem
18:32:27 <DanC> close action-428
18:32:27 <trackbot> ACTION-428 Sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility closed
18:32:36 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:32:38 <Zakim> -Raman
18:32:39 <DanC> ADJOURN
18:32:50 <Zakim> -Noah_Mendelsohn
18:32:51 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
18:32:51 <Zakim> -John_Kemp
18:32:52 <Zakim> -DanC
18:32:53 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:32:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, John_Kemp, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Raman, TimBL
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