IRC log of ua on 2010-04-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:33:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:33:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc
16:33:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:33:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:33:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:33:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:33:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:33:39 [trackbot]
Date: 29 April 2010
16:44:35 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:48:31 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:48:53 [kford]
trackbot, start meeting
16:48:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:48:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:48:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
16:48:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:48:58 [trackbot]
Date: 29 April 2010
16:49:57 [kford]
Agenda+ pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:49:59 [kford]
Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/
16:50:00 [kford]
Agenda+ Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more)
16:50:02 [kford]
Agenda+ Comments on last public working draft
16:50:03 [kford]
Agenda+ Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers
16:50:05 [kford]
Agenda+ HTML 5 and the user agent
16:50:30 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
16:56:29 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford
16:56:44 [kford]
Regrets:Simon
16:58:11 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:59:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:25 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:59:47 [kford]
zakim, code?
16:59:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kford
17:00:10 [Zakim]
+Greg
17:00:14 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:00:23 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:00:23 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:01:02 [kford]
/msg allanj do you want to drive today?
17:01:17 [Zakim]
+??P4
17:01:27 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:57 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has joined #ua
17:03:39 [AllanJ]
zakim, ?P4 is really patricklauke
17:03:39 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '?P4'
17:03:50 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??P4 is really patricklauke
17:03:50 [Zakim]
+patricklauke; got it
17:04:39 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
17:04:53 [kford]
Scribe: kford
17:05:06 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:05:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Greg, kford, patricklauke, Jeanne
17:05:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see patrickhlauke, Greg, kford, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, trackbot
17:05:22 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:05:22 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:05:24 [Zakim]
1. pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from kford]
17:05:27 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:05:27 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:05:29 [Zakim]
3. Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more) [from kford]
17:05:32 [Zakim]
4. Comments on last public working draft [from kford]
17:05:35 [Zakim]
5. Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers [from kford]
17:05:37 [Zakim]
6. HTML 5 and the user agent [from kford]
17:05:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open" taken up [from kford]
17:06:47 [kford]
Group reviewing open action items.
17:07:14 [kford]
JA: Jeanne you have a mess of these related to getting text in the document.,
17:07:28 [kford]
JS: I have some notes.
17:07:38 [kford]
JS: I need someone else to take 314.
17:08:20 [kford]
Group discussing what action 314 is about.
17:08:38 [kford]
GL: There are several ways to handle. We can put exceptions, scope each SC.
17:08:58 [AllanJ]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0077.html
17:09:19 [kford]
GL: Or we can put some general exceptions in the conformance section. Gave example of device not having a keyboard.
17:10:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aaaa
17:10:55 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really kimpatch
17:10:55 [Zakim]
+kimpatch; got it
17:11:12 [kford]
Group continues to review history of action 314.
17:11:22 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:11:24 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/
17:11:51 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0019.html
17:12:07 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:12:41 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??P6 is really mhakkenin
17:12:41 [Zakim]
+mhakkenin; got it
17:13:23 [kford]
GL: Did we decide what direction we want to go.
17:14:06 [kford]
Kelly taking action 314.
17:15:01 [kford]
JS: For item 317 I couldn't find the files.
17:15:14 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:15:43 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100426/
17:17:59 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/334
17:24:40 [AllanJ]
discussing action-334
17:25:12 [AllanJ]
kp: google documents has 2 focus points, when collaborating on a document
17:25:40 [AllanJ]
... our focus definitions cover this
17:26:26 [AllanJ]
gl: focus and writing cursor
17:26:33 [AllanJ]
kp: will need to check
17:27:19 [AllanJ]
mh: what does a screen mag know which cursor to follow
17:27:47 [AllanJ]
ja: are the cursors programatically determinable
17:28:04 [AllanJ]
... how to switch between them.
17:28:37 [AllanJ]
gl: doubt there is any a11y api that tracks 2 cursors.
17:29:07 [AllanJ]
mh: perhaps aria. group collaborative documents
17:29:36 [AllanJ]
gl: does aria have anything about cursors
17:29:55 [AllanJ]
mh: not directly. should talk to them
17:31:23 [AllanJ]
kp: multiple windows similar to multiple cursors
17:32:53 [KimPatch]
look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions
17:33:22 [AllanJ]
action: kp to look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions
17:33:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-381 - Look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-05-06].
17:36:03 [Greg]
Accessibility API needs to handle multiple instances of input focus (for multiple keyboards and/or pointing devices), selection (e.g. multiple users during real-time collaboration) and highlighting.
17:39:03 [AllanJ]
discussion of editing. if others can send JS stuff that can be pasted into the document it make the work go faster.
17:39:39 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:39:39 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:39:41 [Zakim]
1. pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from kford]
17:39:44 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:39:46 [Zakim]
3. Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more) [from kford]
17:39:48 [Zakim]
4. Comments on last public working draft [from kford]
17:39:49 [Zakim]
5. Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers [from kford]
17:39:52 [Zakim]
6. HTML 5 and the user agent [from kford]
17:40:24 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker
17:40:25 [kford]
/me I am back and *big* apologies for being gone so lone.
17:41:42 [kford]
zakim, take up item 6
17:41:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "HTML 5 and the user agent" taken up [from kford]
17:41:51 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:41:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1, pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open, closed
17:41:53 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:55 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:42:33 [mhakkinen]
mark has to step away, may be back before end of call
17:42:35 [kford]
JA: From an HTML 5 accessibility task force group, there is potential for us to have to add to our implamenting document.
17:42:37 [Zakim]
-mhakkenin
17:43:15 [kford]
JA: The HTML 5 spec has a lot of details on user agent behavior. There is some dcussion that this doesn't belong in the spec and might be more appropriate in other documents.
17:43:44 [kford]
s/dscussion/discussion/
17:44:07 [kford]
JA and GL clariffffffffycope.
17:44:27 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:44:29 [kford]
JA and GL clarify scope.
17:44:59 [kford]
PL: Can we do some harmonization?
17:45:20 [kford]
JA: Michael has a set of bugs that we think represent the issues.
17:45:31 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
17:45:59 [kford]
JA: We should be getting the specific issues from Michael Cooper as a starting list.
17:47:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.508.877.aabb
17:47:41 [jeanne]
zakim, aabb is really jeanne
17:47:41 [Zakim]
+jeanne; got it
17:48:11 [AllanJ]
UAWG should review materials from MCooper and report back about what we did
17:48:33 [kford]
More clarification on this from the group.
17:48:49 [kford]
PL: Can a spec go to last call if it reences other docus that are not done.
17:49:09 [kford]
JS: If they reference a normative doc yes but not if it is justttttttttttttt ormative.
17:49:30 [kford]
q+
17:52:15 [kford]
q-
17:52:29 [kford]
zakim, close item 6
17:52:29 [Zakim]
agendum 6, HTML 5 and the user agent, closed
17:52:30 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:52:32 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:52:49 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
17:52:49 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers" taken up [from kford]
17:53:28 [kford]
JA: Just a friendly reminder when you send e-mail to the list on your action items include the item number and such.
17:53:59 [kford]
Syntax is Action- <number>, where number is the number of your action item.
17:54:07 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
17:54:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Reminder about mail to list for action items - please include action item numbers, closed
17:54:09 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:54:11 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:54:18 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:54:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Comments on last public working draft" taken up [from kford]
17:54:36 [kford]
JA: We put out a new working draft and asked for comments and didn't get any.
17:54:53 [kford]
JA: JS believes most compnaies won't review until we are more stable.
17:55:15 [kford]
JS: This is a problem that W3C is working on addressing in general.
17:55:48 [patrickhlauke]
so is this the right time to already tap companies about it?
17:56:12 [AllanJ]
KF: should we extend date or put out another working draft?
17:56:45 [AllanJ]
gl: if we are putting out new draft, it doesn't make sense to extend date.
17:57:22 [AllanJ]
kf: need a strategy to get more input. should wait for a new draft.
17:58:10 [kford]
KP: Let's identify target people and notify them in advance.
17:58:32 [kford]
KP: Assign folks to follow up and get feedback from our targetted audience.
17:58:44 [patrickhlauke]
+1
18:00:19 [patrickhlauke]
i'll pester Opera internal, obviously
18:00:43 [AllanJ]
everyone think of 1 or 2 people to ping for review
18:01:28 [kford]
Group will pick target people. Everyone try to identify two folks for next meeting.
18:01:42 [kford]
Goal it to publish next working draft in a week.
18:01:49 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
18:01:49 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Comments on last public working draft, closed
18:01:50 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:01:52 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
18:01:56 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
18:01:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more)" taken up [from kford]
18:02:38 [kford]
JA: Talking about Kelly's e-mail on BN and browsing. I read something that says mobile browsing is more popular or will be than the desktop.
18:03:09 [kford]
KP: What does our group use today?
18:03:42 [kford]
PL: Opera is on more devices than any other browser.
18:03:49 [kford]
KP: I use an iPhone.
18:04:35 [kford]
PL: We have Opera in a lot of non-traditional devices like picture frames, cars and such.
18:05:03 [kford]
JA: There have also been articles on TV manufacturers putting the browser in the TV.
18:06:05 [patrickhlauke]
i use iphone / android
18:06:25 [patrickhlauke]
being careful not to mix device with browser - e,g, android has lots of different browsers
18:06:54 [AllanJ]
kf: are there users and other mobile browser companies that we could target
18:07:30 [AllanJ]
pl: iphone and android are just platforms, they can have many different browsers that run on each
18:07:39 [kford]
PL: Kind of a complex challenge here because of the different hardware manufacturers and browser vendors.
18:08:59 [kford]
PL: Can we ping the mobile web group in the W3C?
18:09:08 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:10:06 [patrickhlauke]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/Activity
18:10:26 [patrickhlauke]
also AT support on different devices / platforms varies
18:11:37 [kford]
GL: Does our stuff cover set top boxes?
18:11:42 [patrickhlauke]
it should
18:12:07 [kford]
JA: We'd hope so. UAAG was desktop centric. Glao for this is to go beyond.
18:12:07 [patrickhlauke]
devices that consume/display web content in general
18:12:39 [kford]
GL: We need to get some of these vendors then involved.
18:12:56 [kford]
GL: Also need to call out more of who we aim UAAG for in the intro.
18:13:18 [kford]
GL: Specifically call out stuff like st top.
18:14:18 [kford]
PL: I've had some involvement with a UK effort to define some accessibility that encompasses the broad case of web accessibility.
18:14:46 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:15:26 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
18:15:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more), closed
18:15:27 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:15:29 [Zakim]
2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
18:15:34 [patrickhlauke]
action: PL to check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices
18:15:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-382 - Check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices [on Patrick Lauke - due 2010-05-06].
18:16:42 [kford]
PL: BBC is a driving force behind this effort.
18:17:59 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
18:17:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/" taken up [from kford]
18:20:15 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100426/
18:20:42 [kford]
Group is going to rerun the survey.
18:20:48 [patrickhlauke]
+1
18:23:06 [Zakim]
-kford
18:23:09 [Zakim]
-kimpatch
18:23:10 [Zakim]
-patricklauke
18:23:12 [Zakim]
-jeanne
18:23:12 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has left #ua
18:23:17 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:23:19 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:23:19 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:23:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, Greg, kford, Jeanne, patricklauke, +1.617.325.aaaa, kimpatch, mhakkenin, +1.508.877.aabb
18:25:14 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:26:12 [kford]
Present: Kelly, Greg, Jim, Patrick, Mark, Jeanne
18:26:22 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:26:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:26:59 [kford]
Present+Kim
18:27:06 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:27:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:31:29 [kford]
zakim, please part
18:31:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:32:11 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:32:20 [kford]
rrsagent, please part
18:32:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-actions.rdf :
18:32:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kp to look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions [1]
18:32:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc#T17-33-22
18:32:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: PL to check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices [2]
18:32:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc#T18-15-34