IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-04-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-irc

14:57:40 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

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14:57:42 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

14:57:42 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:43 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:57:43 [trackbot]

Date: 29 April 2010

14:58:39 [janina]

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14:59:00 [janina]

zakim, call janina

14:59:00 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

14:59:07 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0308.html

14:59:11 [MichaelC]

chair: Janina_Sajka

14:59:26 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

14:59:26 [Zakim]

sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is

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15:00:18 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

15:00:25 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka

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15:00:53 [Zakim]

+??P49

15:00:55 [Zakim]

+Marco

15:01:10 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:01:33 [MichaelC]

zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton

15:01:33 [Zakim]

+Paul_Cotton; got it

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15:02:25 [janina]

Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

15:02:25 [janina]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

15:02:25 [janina]

agenda: this

15:02:25 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Review

15:02:25 [janina]

agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates

15:02:26 [janina]

agenda+ Table Summary Restart http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary

15:02:28 [janina]

agenda+ CFC re New HTML 5 Elements http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0291.html

15:02:30 [janina]

agenda+ CFC re Missing Alt [See below]

15:02:32 [janina]

agenda+ Setting Deadlines for Open Issues

15:02:34 [janina]

agenda+ User Agent Related Bugs--What's Our Approach?

15:02:34 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Michael_Cooper

15:02:36 [janina]

agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review

15:02:38 [janina]

agenda+ New Business

15:02:40 [janina]

agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe

15:02:42 [janina]

agenda+ be done

15:03:00 [JF]

scribe = jf

15:03:15 [oedipus]

scribe: John_Foliot

15:03:20 [Zakim]

+Rich

15:03:23 [oedipus]

scribenick: JF

15:03:32 [JF]

JS tweak to agenda - review of open issues - UI issues

15:03:33 [richardschwerdtfe]

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15:03:41 [JF]

action item review

15:03:41 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - item

15:03:43 [Sean]

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15:03:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:03:50 [Zakim]

+Ben

15:04:11 [JF]

action 25 - Steve F

15:04:11 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - 25

15:04:31 [JF]

will leave open - steve not on call

15:04:33 [kliehm]

ACTION-25?

15:04:33 [trackbot]

ACTION-25 -- Steve Faulkner to post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments -- due 2010-04-22 -- OPEN

15:04:33 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/25

15:04:57 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:04:58 [JF]

will re-visit Issue26 later in the call

15:05:04 [JF]

subteams : Canvas

15:05:06 [Stevef]

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15:05:18 [JF]

awaiting responses - nothing heard over the last 2 weeks

15:05:31 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly

15:05:35 [JF]

Rich will 'shake the tree' this week

15:05:48 [JF]

affecting deadline - needs more comments

15:05:48 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/0003.html

15:05:56 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/att-0003/2dcontext10-Apr-11.html

15:06:02 [JF]

concern of exposing this level of API

15:06:06 [JF]

Caret issue

15:06:34 [JF]

porposal exists - question is how does this get mapped to A11y API/platform

15:06:37 [oedipus]

i/JS tweak to agenda/TOPIC: Action Item Reviews

15:06:42 [MichaelC]

zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner

15:06:42 [Zakim]

+Steve_Faulkner; got it

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15:08:13 [oedipus]

JF: had lenghthy but productive call yesterday; touched on Javascript API for Text Associations; talked about timestamp format; don't have concise and formal rfequirements stateement -- spread over multiple docs, JF has action item to distill into something clear and cohesive

15:08:33 [oedipus]

JF: playing catch-up; will submit document to TF when finished so can base future work

15:08:48 [oedipus]

JS: discussed media requirments versus feature reqs

15:08:55 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.300.aaaa - is perhaps WGBH?

15:09:13 [oedipus]

JF: need to address a11y in <video> and <audio> - urgency as is being implemented without a11y

15:09:25 [oedipus]

JF: media in HTML5 - introduces multiple layers of complexity

15:09:56 [oedipus]

JF: short term needs and longer term needs and reqs; roadmap for media work; very productive call; tough on attendees -- australians up early, europeans up late

15:10:20 [oedipus]

JF: time was 3PM Vancouver time; workable -- will have series of calls over next few weeks;

15:10:34 [oedipus]

JF: will perhaps later move to every-other-week

15:10:48 [oedipus]

SF: WHAT WG stuff -- where does that fit into what is being done in media subgroup

15:11:48 [oedipus]

JF: underscores sense of urgency; implementation outside of our control - have to focus on what is being currently implemented; need to re-review WHAT WG req documents -- seems to be a pretty good start but have to check to see if included everything; will consider and use in collating document

15:12:00 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html

15:12:10 [Zakim]

+[Mozilla]

15:12:15 [oedipus]

JF: encourge TF members to review the WHAT WG materials

15:12:22 [JF]

thanks Greg

15:12:23 [davidb]

Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter

15:12:23 [Zakim]

+David_Bolter; got it

15:12:38 [JF]

Summary Proposal - Wendy not on call

15:12:48 [JF]

defer on this

15:12:59 [oedipus]

s/ JS: discussed media requirments/JF: discussed media requirments/

15:13:13 [JF]

CfC on the Zero Edits Resolution

15:13:18 [oedipus]

i/JF: had lenghthy/scribenick: oedipus

15:13:41 [JF]

Issues 90, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97

15:13:46 [oedipus]

i/Summary Proposal - Wendy/scribenick: JF

15:13:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:13:54 [JF]

one vote recorded against

15:14:11 [JF]

no-one else has commented

15:14:35 [JF]

cyns - silence=agreement?

15:14:43 [JF]

JS - essentially, yes

15:15:11 [oedipus]

i/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Sub-groups/Sub-team Reports/

15:15:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:15:16 [JF]

suggestion is to vote on the call

15:15:45 [JF]

not required to respond to the email - email offered the opportunity to register your voice

15:16:10 [JF]

MC - essentially silence *does* = concurance

15:16:29 [JF]

removes the ability to have an objection later down the road

15:16:34 [oedipus]

GJR does not object to closing CfC for issues 98, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97

15:16:44 [janina]

RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the zero-edit change

15:16:44 [janina]

proposal at

15:16:44 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements. We note

15:16:44 [janina]

this proposal closely tracks our previously submitted recommendation

15:16:44 [janina]

ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden,

15:16:45 [janina]

ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter at:

15:16:47 [janina]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1086.html

15:16:49 [janina]

15:17:28 [JF]

per request of group from last week, that we come up with a fomarl language here

15:17:35 [oedipus]

i/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Sub-Group Reports/

15:17:42 [JF]

JS is there discussion? Is there opposition?

15:18:05 [JF]

JS declares that we accept this, and JS will formally forward this to the WG Chairs

15:18:12 [JF]

Next: Missing ALT

15:18:46 [JF]

almost closed this last week, lacked formal language

15:18:54 [JF]

rectivated discussion on list this week

15:18:58 [JF]

2 comments emerged

15:19:06 [richardschwerdtfe]

need to drop off

15:19:12 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:19:13 [JF]

introduction of a "missing" atribute

15:19:37 [JF]

not sure if we want to further perfect the original proposal

15:19:48 [oedipus]

regrets: Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfeiffer, Denis_Boudreau

15:19:51 [JF]

do we need to re-open

15:20:46 [janina]

q?

15:21:53 [janina]

q?

15:22:08 [oedipus]

JF: responded late this morning before call -- discussing 2 issues on list - 1 is introduction of new attribute that is indicator that author explicitly declined to use alt text; second is crowd-sourcing or metadata mining as repair -- that is going back down the image hueristics issue which we voted down; need to de-link 2 issues; support specific indicator for missing @alt - indicates author provided opportunity to provide @alt text and did not; crowd-so

15:22:10 [oedipus]

valid

15:22:45 [oedipus]

JF: approved matt's statement on Issue 66 to strike OCR from text -- to me, crowd-sourcing and data-mining are similar

15:23:32 [oedipus]

JS: personal statement (not wearing chair's hat) -- may have negative copyright implications - should stay clear of that; if not in spec, doesn't mean can't happen -- putting in spec gives far more credence than we are in position to accept

15:23:47 [JF]

(thanks Greg)

15:23:49 [janina]

q?

15:23:50 [oedipus]

KF: personally, agree with JS 100% -- dangerous thing to do

15:23:51 [oedipus]

q+

15:24:05 [JF]

JS - anyone wishing to speak in favor of crowd-sourcing?

15:24:18 [Zakim]

-[Mozilla]

15:24:31 [JF]

Cyns - adding it to UAAG might be a good idea, but not the spec

15:24:35 [janina]

q?

15:24:40 [janina]

ack o

15:24:57 [JF]

GR - suggests that it could be added to SteveF's guidance document

15:25:12 [oedipus]

i/JF: responded late/scribenick: oedipus

15:25:16 [JF]

appears consensus of call that crowdsourcing not be included in the spec

15:25:22 [oedipus]

i/JS - anyone/scribenick: JF

15:25:49 [JF]

JS leaves open the question what to do with the 'Flickr' problen

15:26:07 [oedipus]

GJR: would like to use SteveF's document to point out how crowd sourcing might work with a tool such as the w3c open source tool RDFPic

15:26:23 [JF]

a "missing' attribute would not be objected to, but we leave to the HTML WG to decide

15:26:45 [JF]

not sure if it is important to hold up consensus of current proposal

15:26:58 [JF]

appears that we have a good recommendation

15:27:22 [JF]

Cyns - perhaps vote on the existing proposal, and suggest a sperate Change Proposal for any new attribute

15:27:30 [JF]

ie @missing or equiv

15:27:48 [janina]

q?

15:27:53 [JF]

JS - I believe that this might be the better way forward

15:28:01 [oedipus_]

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15:28:04 [oedipus_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0332.html

15:28:18 [JF]

SF - agrees that this kind of guidance could go into the guidance document he is working on

15:28:27 [oedipus_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0332.html

15:28:46 [JF]

GR - yes, could add the metadata stuff he floated on the list to document steve is working on as well

15:28:59 [oedipus_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0307.html

15:29:15 [JF]

steves document will include both practical guidance and a look at future possibilities

15:29:24 [JF]

greg will contribute

15:29:46 [oedipus_]

ACTION: Gregory - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list

15:29:46 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-28 - - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-05-06].

15:30:29 [oedipus_]

plus 1 to approval now with addendum later

15:30:38 [janina]

RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at

15:30:38 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126to

15:30:38 [janina]

implement WAI Consensus Guidance that a missing text alternative should

15:30:38 [janina]

be an error in conformance checkers. We expect the error text will

15:30:38 [janina]

reference additional guidance on text alternatives in WCAG support

15:30:39 [janina]

materials.

15:30:41 [janina]

15:30:48 [JF]

proposal from cyns is to vote on previous/existing alt text proposal, and ask Laura et al to work on @missing or equiv separately

15:30:57 [oedipus]

plus 1 to approval now with addendum later

15:31:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:31:14 [JF]

JS ask for any discussion? any objections on adoption of the Change Propsoal

15:31:21 [JF]

accepted

15:31:58 [JF]

greg to re-format IRD log - thanks

15:32:03 [JF]

Deadlines

15:32:29 [JF]

not just the a11y TF being put under pressure

15:32:40 [oedipus]

i/accepted/RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126to implement WAI Consensus Guidance that a missing text alternative should be an error in conformance checkers. We expect the error text will reference additional guidance on text alternatives in WCAG support materials.

15:32:41 [JF]

Chairs are pushing all TFs and groups

15:32:48 [JF]

heading towards a Last Call

15:33:11 [JF]

deadlines can be positive - they force decisions - no need to continue talking

15:33:27 [JF]

and highlights real open issues

15:33:39 [JF]

as long as we are reasonable in moving forward

15:33:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:34:00 [JF]

JS agrees to work with deadlines, as long as we remain in control

15:34:12 [JF]

TF needs to start thinking seriously about deadlines

15:34:46 [JF]

example - media is still too wide open, however canvas is well along and finding a deadline for that might be easier

15:35:25 [JF]

GR - one thing to ask the WG is to remember that we are replacing some things that have been remove - we are being asked to re-engineer some things, and that takes time

15:35:49 [JF]

JS - aware that some old battles appear to be being re-fought

15:36:05 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Deadlines for TF Deliverables

15:36:32 [JF]

JS - suggesting late may for Canvas resolution (20th or 27th)

15:37:09 [JF]

Wendy no t on call to discuss Summary, but Proposal exist to re-install @summary as found in HTML4 to act as a place holder

15:37:31 [JF]

to remove 'pressure' for now, with understanding that we are working on a more comprehensive solution

15:38:13 [oedipus]

q?

15:38:16 [JF]

Cyns original proposal was poorly received by the WG, which is why she went back to it originally

15:38:46 [JF]

PC - as a result to that significant feedback, Cyns went back to the drawing board, which is why Proposal B emerged - in another direction

15:39:06 [JF]

Cyns - Proposal B doesn't seem to be any less controversial than the orignal propsoal

15:39:34 [JF]

if we can get a position to re-instate the orignal @summary, that would buy time

15:39:52 [JF]

but don't feel that this will move forward based upon previous exchanges

15:41:21 [JF]

PC - good question - if there was a bug that stated re-instate HTML4 accessibility issue (@summary) then that might work - asking for more guidance

15:41:38 [JF]

might be feasible as an operational issue, but might not give us amuch actual guidance

15:42:18 [JF]

Cyns - what that would give us is taht we could stop arguing about it, and focus on real engineering work (canvas , ARIA mappings, etc.) - allows us to focus engineering resources on the hard bits

15:42:36 [JF]

not on the emotional battles that many consider to be old news

15:42:42 [JF]

+ 1 greg

15:43:09 [janina]

q?

15:43:10 [oedipus]

GJR believes first question to be answered vis a vis summary is: attribute or element

15:43:14 [JF]

Wendys work is on improving table analysis to reduce the need for a summary mechanism

15:43:45 [JF]

SF - might be seen as a backwards step

15:43:49 [JF]

won't move issue forward

15:44:04 [oedipus]

q+ to say that we still have competing summary proposals

15:44:09 [oedipus]

ack me

15:44:09 [Zakim]

oedipus, you wanted to say that we still have competing summary proposals

15:44:10 [JF]

Cyn -*if* we could do this just for summary, might find reception

15:44:20 [janina]

q?

15:45:10 [JF]

KF - agrees with most, however if should not propose something predicated upon something that may or may not happen in the future

15:45:25 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table

15:45:36 [Zakim]

-Marco

15:45:41 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary

15:46:01 [JF]

Cysn: putback HTML4 text, work will continue, it may or may not be fruitful replacing some of the use-cases of summary

15:46:33 [JF]

GR - points out we have competing proposals summary as attribute versus summary as an element

15:46:41 [Zakim]

+Marco

15:47:42 [JF]

suggest we decide which thing it should be

15:48:13 [JF]

gives us a clear path on whether we continue with the HTML4 perspective or as a new work effort

15:48:32 [JF]

Cyns would like to maintain status quo, only because it works today - use as a deffering move

15:48:46 [JF]

then address from an engineering issue down the road

15:49:11 [JF]

JS - is there an objection here?

15:49:15 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary#Proposals

15:49:34 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element

15:49:36 [JF]

We have a consensus on direction - JS and Cyns will work on language for a Recommendation

15:49:45 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tableInfoProposal

15:49:57 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tableSummaryProposal

15:49:59 [JF]

for next week to formally address

15:50:07 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/SummaryAttribute20100222

15:50:15 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute,_Feb_15,_2010

15:50:26 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009

15:50:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:51:05 [JF]

Tuesdays 3:00 PM

15:51:08 [JF]

Boston

15:51:12 [JF]

mappings to ARIA

15:51:15 [JF]

discussions

15:51:26 [JF]

other interested parties invited to participate

15:51:43 [JF]

we appear to have real action and next steps to all existing items

15:51:52 [oedipus]

TOPIC: MCooper's Bug Review

15:51:56 [JF]

Action26 on Michael - remaining UI bugs

15:51:57 [MichaelC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0283.html Discussion on open bugs

15:52:18 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0283.html

15:52:37 [JF]

MC reviewed open bugs, and is 'stuck' because bugs discuss mor about what Use Agents should do

15:52:52 [JF]

agrees that something should be said, but not sure if the spec is the right place to say it

15:52:59 [JF]

2 response to day

15:53:09 [JF]

Laura and Ian so far

15:53:21 [oedipus]

cooper's bug post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0333.html

15:53:24 [oedipus]

laura's reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0285.html

15:53:27 [oedipus]

hixie's reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0322.html

15:54:25 [oedipus]

hixie: If there are UI-specific requirements in the spec, please file bugs. In most cases, those are mistakes. (There's a few special cases where I have included UI requirements; those are generally either for accessibility or security reasons, and even those should generally only be "SHOULD"-level requirements.)

15:54:27 [JF]

MC would like to propose to take Ian's interpretation - these are User Agent issues - and proposes to close them

15:54:38 [JF]

they should not be spec bugs

15:54:48 [oedipus]

THREE MINUTE WARNING

15:55:02 [JF]

they are interface issues + we have other issues we are working on

15:55:10 [JF]

Cyns, what to do if we disagree

15:55:13 [JF]

?

15:55:13 [oedipus]

hixie: The distinction is between what is UI-agnostic UA behaviour and what is UI-specific UA behaviour.

15:55:34 [JF]

SF - does this take into account things like Drag and Drop?

15:56:11 [JF]

agrees that they should perhaps not be spec'ed, but they need to be referenced to guidance, etc.

15:56:36 [JF]

MC - 1 criteria to use is to understand expected UI behavior

15:56:52 [oedipus]

s/THREE MINUTE WARNING//

15:56:57 [JF]

ie in Drag and Drop - not sure that it is complete enough to be accessible

15:57:23 [JF]

having gone through the exercise, can see that this might be 'mixe'

15:57:29 [JF]

mixed

15:57:59 [JF]

Cyns - not comfortable with Ian's blanket assertion that this doesn't apply to the spec

15:58:33 [Zakim]

-Paul_Cotton

15:58:43 [JF]

JS - next steps?

15:58:56 [Zakim]

-Geoff_Freed

15:59:03 [gfreed]

gfreed has left #html-a11y

15:59:07 [kliehm]

s/mixe/mixed/

15:59:10 [JF]

MC - with some of the bugs, it is clear what to do. those that are unclear to be put out and considered cse-by-case

15:59:15 [JF]

Cyns would prefer that

15:59:27 [JF]

+1 from SF, and myself

15:59:38 [kliehm]

s/cse-by-case/case-by-case/

15:59:42 [JF]

JS - thanks all

15:59:53 [Zakim]

-Kelly_Ford

16:00:01 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

16:00:02 [Zakim]

-Steve_Faulkner

16:00:02 [Zakim]

-Sean_Hayes

16:00:04 [Zakim]

-Eric

16:00:05 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

16:00:07 [Zakim]

-Ben

16:00:09 [Zakim]

-Janina_Sajka

16:00:11 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

16:00:15 [Zakim]

-Marco

16:00:18 [eric_carlson]

eric_carlson has left #html-a11y

16:00:19 [Zakim]

-kliehm

16:00:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:00:39 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

16:00:49 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

16:00:51 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

16:00:53 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended

16:00:57 [Zakim]

Attendees were John_Foliot, Eric, Janina, Michael_Cooper, kliehm, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jim_Allan, Janina_Sajka, Marco, Kelly_Ford, Sean_Hayes, Paul_Cotton, Rich, Ben, Cynthia_Shelly,

16:01:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:01:01 [janina]

janina has left #html-a11y

16:01:02 [Zakim]

... Steve_Faulkner, +1.617.300.aaaa, Geoff_Freed, David_Bolter

16:01:06 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #html-a11y

16:01:06 [Ben]

Ben has left #html-a11y

16:02:20 [oedipus]

i/RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y/scribenick: oedipus

16:02:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:03:21 [oedipus]

i/accepted/ScribeNick: JF

16:03:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:03:52 [oedipus]

s/IRD log/IRC log/

16:04:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:06:14 [oedipus]

s/SF - does this/SF: does this/

16:06:17 [oedipus]

s/MC - 1 criteria/MC: 1 criteria/

16:06:31 [oedipus]

s/Cyns - not comfortable/Cyns: not comfortable

16:06:35 [oedipus]

s/JS - next steps?/JS: next steps?/

16:06:38 [oedipus]

s/MC - with some of the bugs/MC: with some of the bugs/

16:06:42 [oedipus]

s/JS - thanks all/JS: thanks all/

16:06:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:08:20 [Laura]

Laura has joined #html-a11y

16:10:50 [oedipus]

s/MC reviewed open bugs,/MC: reviewed open bugs,/

16:10:55 [oedipus]

s/MC would like to propose to take/MC: would like to propose to take/

16:10:58 [oedipus]

s/agrees that something should be said/MC: agrees that something should be said/

16:11:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:11:32 [Laura]

Hi Gregory.

16:12:32 [oedipus]

s/2 response to day/MC: 2 response today/

16:12:36 [oedipus]

s/Laura and Ian so far/MC: Laura and Ian so far/

16:12:39 [oedipus]

s/they should not be spec bugs/MC: they should not be spec bugs

16:12:42 [oedipus]

s/they are interface issues + we have other issues we are working on/MC: they are interface issues + we have other issues we are working on/

16:12:46 [oedipus]

s/Cyns, what to/Cyns: what to/

16:12:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:15:09 [oedipus]

s/GR - points out we have competing proposals summary as attribute versus summary as an element/GJR: points out we have competing proposals summary as attribute versus summary as an element

16:15:13 [oedipus]

s/suggest we decide which thing it should be/GJR: suggest we decide which thing it should be: attribute or element

16:15:16 [oedipus]

s/gives us a clear path on whether we continue with the HTML4 perspective or as a new work effort/GJR: gives us a clear path on whether we continue with the HTML4 perspective or as a new work effort/

16:15:19 [oedipus]

s/Cyns would like to maintain status quo, only because it works today - use as a deffering move/Cyns: would like to maintain status quo, only because it works today - use as a deffering move/

16:15:23 [oedipus]

s/then address from an engineering issue down the road/Cyns: then address from an engineering issue down the road/

16:15:25 [oedipus]

s/JS - is there an objection here?/JS: is there an objection here?

16:15:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:16:21 [oedipus]

s/SF - might be seen as a backwards step/SF: might be seen as a backwards step

16:16:25 [oedipus]

s/won't move issue forward/SF: won't move issue forward/

16:18:52 [Laura]

s/Hi Gregory.

16:19:38 [oedipus]

s/JS - suggesting late may for Canvas resolution (20th or 27th)/JS: suggesting late May for Canvas resolution (20th or 27th)

16:19:43 [oedipus]

s/Wendy no t on call to discuss Summary, but Proposal exist to re-install @summary as found in HTML4 to act as a place holder/JS: Wendy not on call to discuss Summary, but Proposal exist to re-install @summary as found in HTML4 to act as a place holder/

16:19:50 [oedipus]

s/to remove 'pressure' for now, with understanding that we are working on a more comprehensive solution/JS: to remove 'pressure' for now, with understanding that we are working on a more comprehensive solution

16:19:53 [oedipus]

s/Cyns original proposal was poorly received by the WG, which is why she went back to it originally/Cyns: original proposal was poorly received by the WG, which is why she went back to it originally/

16:19:56 [oedipus]

s/PC - as a result to that significant feedback, Cyns went back to the drawing board, which is why Proposal B emerged - in another direction/ PC: as a result to that significant feedback, Cyns went back to the drawing board, which is why Proposal B emerged - in another direction/

16:19:59 [oedipus]

s/Cyns - Proposal B doesn't seem to be any less controversial than the orignal propsoal/Cyns: Proposal B doesn't seem to be any less controversial than the orignal propsoal/

16:20:02 [oedipus]

s/if we can get a position to re-instate the orignal @summary, that would buy time/Cyns: if we can get a position to re-instate the orignal @summary, that would buy time/

16:20:05 [oedipus]

s/but don't feel that this will move forward based upon previous exchanges/Cyns: but don't feel that this will move forward based upon previous exchanges/

16:20:16 [oedipus]

s/PC - good question - if there was a bug that stated re-instate HTML4 accessibility issue (@summary) then that might work - asking for more guidance/PC: good question - if there was a bug that stated re-instate HTML4 accessibility issue (@summary) then that might work - asking for more guidance/

16:20:20 [oedipus]

s/might be feasible as an operational issue, but might not give us much actual guidance/PC: might be feasible as an operational issue, but might not give us much actual guidance/

16:20:23 [oedipus]

s/Cyns - what that would give us is taht we could stop arguing about it, and focus on real engineering work (canvas , ARIA mappings, etc.) - allows us to focus engineering resources on the hard bits/Cyns: Cyns - what that would give us is taht we could stop arguing about it, and focus on real engineering work (canvas , ARIA mappings, etc.) - allows us to focus engineering resources on the hard bits/

16:20:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:22:09 [oedipus]

s/Wendys work is on improving table analysis to reduce the need for a summary mechanism/JS: Wendy's work is on improving table analysis to reduce the need for a summary mechanism/

16:22:12 [oedipus]

s/Cyn -*if* we could do this just for summary, might find reception/Cyns: *if* we could do this just for summary, might find reception/

16:22:15 [oedipus]

s/KF - agrees with most, however if should not propose something predicated upon something that may or may not happen in the future/KF: agrees with most of what cyns said, however if should not propose something predicated upon something that may or may not happen in the future/

16:22:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:22:52 [oedipus]

s/Cysn: putback HTML4/Cyns: put back HTML4/

16:25:34 [oedipus]

s/not just the a11y TF being put under pressure/JS: not just the a11y TF being put under pressure/

16:25:37 [oedipus]

s/Chairs are pushing all TFs and groups/JS: HTML WG Chairs are pushing all TFs and groups/

16:25:40 [oedipus]

s/heading towards a Last Call/JS: heading towards a Last Call/

16:25:42 [oedipus]

s/deadlines can be positive - they force decisions - no need to continue talking/JS: deadlines can be positive - they force decisions - no need to continue talking

16:25:45 [oedipus]

s/and highlights real open issues/JS: and highlights real open issues/

16:25:47 [oedipus]

s/as long as we are reasonable in moving forward/JS: as long as we are reasonable in moving forward/

16:25:50 [oedipus]

s/JS agrees to work with deadlines, as long as we remain in control/JS: agree to work with deadlines, as long as we remain in control/

16:25:52 [oedipus]

s/TF needs to start thinking seriously about deadlines/JS: TF needs to start thinking seriously about deadlines/

16:25:55 [oedipus]

s/example - media is still too wide open, however canvas is well along and finding a deadline for that might be easier/JS: example - media is still too wide open, however canvas is well along and finding a deadline for that might be easier/

16:25:58 [oedipus]

s/GR - one thing to ask the WG is to remember that we are replacing some things that have been remove - we are being asked to re-engineer some things, and that takes time/GJR: one thing to ask the WG is to remember that we are replacing some things that have been remove - we are being asked to re-engineer some things, and that takes time/

16:26:00 [oedipus]

s/JS - aware that some old battles appear to be being re-fought/JS: aware that some old battles appear to be being re-fought

16:26:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:27:34 [oedipus]

s/greg will contribute/GJR: will contribute proposed Appendix text for SteveF's textual alternatives "module"/

16:27:58 [oedipus]

s/steves document will include both practical guidance and a look at future possibilities/JS: steve's document will include both practical guidance and a look at future possibilities/

16:28:13 [oedipus]

s/GR - yes, could add the metadata stuff he floated on the list to document steve is working on as well/GJR: yes, could add the metadata stuff he floated on the list to document steve is working on as well/

16:28:30 [oedipus]

s/SF - agrees that this kind of guidance could go into the guidance document he is working on/SF: agrees that this kind of guidance could go into the guidance document he is working on/

16:28:47 [oedipus]

s/JS - I believe that this might be the better way forward/JS: I believe that this might be the better way forward/

16:31:07 [oedipus]

s/JS - anyone wishing to speak in favor of crowd-sourcing?/JS: JS - anyone wishing to speak in favor of crowd-sourcing?/

16:31:11 [oedipus]

s/Cyns - adding it to UAAG might be a good idea, but not the spec/Cyns: adding it to UAAG might be a good idea, but not the spec

16:31:14 [oedipus]

s/GR - suggests that it could be added to SteveF's guidance document/GJR: it could be added to SteveF's guidance document/

16:31:16 [oedipus]

s/appears consensus of call that crowdsourcing not be included in the spec/JS: appears consensus of call that crowdsourcing not be included in the spec/

16:31:19 [oedipus]

s/JS leaves open the question what to do with the 'Flickr' problen/JS: JS leaves open the question what to do with the 'Flickr' problem/

16:31:22 [oedipus]

s/a "missing' attribute would not be objected to, but we leave to the HTML WG to decide/JS: a "missing' attribute would not be objected to, but we leave to the HTML WG to decide/

16:31:25 [oedipus]

s/not sure if it is important to hold up consensus of current proposal/JS: not sure if it is important to hold up consensus of current proposal/

16:31:28 [oedipus]

s/appears that we have a good recommendation/JS: appears that we have a good recommendation/

16:31:31 [oedipus]

s/Cyns - perhaps vote on the/Cyns: perhaps vote on the

16:31:37 [oedipus]

s/ie @missing or equiv/Cyns: i.e. @missing or equiv

16:31:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:32:43 [oedipus]

s/proposal from cyns is to vote on previous/existing alt text proposal, and ask Laura et al to work on @missing or equiv separately/JS: proposal from cyns is to vote on previous stroke existing alt text proposal, and ask Laura et. al. to work on @missing or equiv separately/

16:33:05 [oedipus]

s/JS ask for any discussion? any objections on adoption of the Change Propsoal/JS: any discussion? any objections on adoption of the Change Propsoal?/

16:33:22 [AllanJ]

AllanJ has left #html-a11y

16:33:31 [oedipus]

s/greg will contribute/GJR: will contribute proposed Appendix text for SteveF's textual alternatives "module"/

16:33:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:35:16 [oedipus]

s/per request of group from last week, that we come up with a fomarl language here/JS: per request of group from last week, that we come up with a formal language here/

16:35:19 [oedipus]

s/JS is there discussion? Is there opposition?/JS: JS is there discussion? Is there opposition?/

16:35:22 [oedipus]

s/JS declares that we accept this, and JS will formally forward this to the WG Chairs/JS: declare that we accept this, and JS will formally forward this to the WG Chairs/

16:35:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:36:00 [oedipus]

s/Next: Missing ALT/TOPIC: Missing @alt/

16:36:48 [oedipus]

s/almost closed this last week, lacked formal language/JS: almost closed this last week, lacked formal language/

16:36:51 [oedipus]

s/rectivated discussion on list this week/JS: rectivated discussion on list this week/

16:36:53 [oedipus]

s/2 comments emerged/JS: 2 comments emerged

16:36:56 [oedipus]

s/introduction of a "missing" atribute/JS: introduction of a "missing" atribute/

16:36:58 [oedipus]

s/not sure if we want to further perfect the original proposal/JS: not sure if we want to further perfect the original proposal/

16:37:01 [oedipus]

s/do we need to re-open/JS: do we need to re-open?/

16:37:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:38:23 [oedipus]

s/suggestion is to vote on the call/JS: suggestion is to vote on the call/

16:38:26 [oedipus]

s/not required to respond to the email - email offered the opportunity to register your voice/JS: not required to respond to the email - email offered the opportunity to register your voice/

16:38:29 [oedipus]

s/MC - essentially silence *does* = concurance/MC: essentially silence DOES equal concurance/

16:38:32 [oedipus]

s/removes the ability to have an objection later down the road/MC: removes the ability to have an objection later down the road/

16:39:31 [oedipus]

s/Summary Proposal - Wendy not on call/TOPIC: Summary Proposal/

16:39:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:40:38 [oedipus]

i/defer on this/JS: Wendy not on call/

16:40:41 [oedipus]

s/defer on this/JS: propose we defer on this/

16:40:43 [oedipus]

s/CfC on the Zero Edits Resolution/TOPIC: CfC on the Zero Edits Resolution/

16:40:53 [oedipus]

s/Issues 90, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97/TOPIC: Issues 90, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97/

16:40:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:41:58 [oedipus]

s/one vote recorded against/JS: one vote recorded against/

16:42:03 [oedipus]

s/no-one else has commented/JS: no-one else has commented/

16:42:06 [oedipus]

s/cyns - silence=agreement?/cyns: silence equals agreement?/

16:42:08 [oedipus]

s/JS - essentially, yes/JS: essentially, yes/

16:42:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:42:56 [oedipus]

s/JS tweak to agenda - review of open issues - UI issues/JS: tweak to agenda - review of open issues - UI issues/

16:42:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:47:09 [oedipus]

s/awaiting responses - nothing heard over the last 2 weeks/RS: awaiting responses - nothing heard over the last 2 weeks/

16:47:13 [oedipus]

s/Rich will 'shake the tree' this week/RS: will 'shake the tree' on outstanding Canvas issues this week/

16:47:15 [oedipus]

s/affecting deadline - needs more comments/RS: affecting deadline - needs more comments/

16:47:18 [oedipus]

s/concern of exposing this level of API/RS: concern of exposing this level of API/

16:47:21 [oedipus]

s/Caret issue/RS: Caret issues still needs resolution/

16:47:23 [oedipus]

s/porposal exists - question is/RS: proposal exists - question is/

16:47:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:50:19 [oedipus]

s/We have a consensus on direction - JS and Cyns will work on language for a Recommendation/JS: We have a consensus on direction - JS and Cyns will work on language for a Recommendation for next week to formally address this/

16:50:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:52:52 [oedipus]

s/Tuesdays 3:00 PM//

16:52:56 [oedipus]

s/Boston//

16:52:59 [oedipus]

s/mappings to ARIA/HTML to ARIA mapping meetings on Tuesdays 3:00 PM Boston time/

16:53:02 [oedipus]

s/other interested parties invited to participate/JS: other interested parties invited to participate/

16:53:05 [oedipus]

s/we appear to have real action and next steps to all existing items/JS: we appear to have real action and next steps to all existing items/

16:53:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:53:49 [oedipus]

s/HTML to ARIA mapping meetings on Tuesdays 3:00 PM Boston time/JS: HTML to ARIA mapping meetings on Tuesdays 3:00 PM Boston time/

16:53:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:54:57 [oedipus]

i/JF: had lenghthy/TOPIC: Media Subgroup/

16:55:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:55:40 [oedipus]

s/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Canvas Subgroup Report/

16:55:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:59:05 [oedipus]

i/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Canvas Subteam Report/

16:59:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

17:00:55 [oedipus]

i/RS: awaiting response/TOPIC: Canvas Subgroup Update/

17:00:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

17:05:23 [oedipus]

present- +1.617.300.aaaa

17:05:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

17:12:55 [oedipus]

s/'mixe'/"mixed"/

17:13:06 [oedipus]

s/mixedd//

17:13:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

17:26:55 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

17:26:55 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-actions.rdf :

17:26:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gregory - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list [1]

17:26:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-irc#T15-29-46