IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:00:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:00:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-irc
22:01:01 [janina]
zakim, this will be html-a11y
22:01:01 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:01:10 [janina]
zakim, this will be media
22:01:10 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:01:34 [janina]
zakim, who is here?
22:01:34 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
22:01:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:02:29 [silvia]
zakim, code
22:02:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', silvia
22:02:59 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Media
22:02:59 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:03:14 [shayes]
shayes has joined #html-a11y
22:04:00 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
22:04:57 [JF]
shall we start?
22:05:06 [JF]
anyone volunteer to scribe?
22:05:33 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
22:05:55 [AllanJ]
jf: issues from JB, needs statement
22:05:59 [silvia]
is there a phone number to call?
22:06:45 [JF]
1 617 761 6200 (USA)
22:07:22 [AllanJ]
jb:We need a requirements document for work in the media area.
22:08:21 [AllanJ]
... sees there are some requirements. are they vetted? are they comprehensive?
22:09:20 [AllanJ]
... concern about technical and accessibility representation. wants WAI to have participation. requirements would help getting the right folks
22:09:29 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:09:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
22:10:21 [AllanJ]
jf: sylvia has done work for Mozilla, and put lots of information on the wiki
22:10:39 [AllanJ]
... are we missing something? who else should we contact?
22:11:06 [silvia]
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_a11y_requirements
22:11:19 [silvia]
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks
22:11:32 [AllanJ]
jb: impression from months back, was concerned about vetting and input, if they have been addressed, I'm Ok
22:12:19 [AllanJ]
sylvia: documents posted have had lots of input.
22:12:52 [AllanJ]
... requirements captions, transcript, audio description
22:13:15 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MultimediaAccessibility
22:13:30 [AllanJ]
... basic requirements are not a problem. all agree. Issues are how to realize the requirements in practice on the web.
22:14:15 [AllanJ]
... doesn't feel need for additional requirements. Please review, comment as necessary.
22:14:41 [AllanJ]
... standstill, at the moment is the technical implementation
22:15:55 [AllanJ]
... one issue is synchronization of multiple video types (multiple angles, etc)
22:17:16 [AllanJ]
jb: 0there is a role for the requirements document., will review the pieces. wonders why not a whole.
22:17:45 [AllanJ]
js: may need a resolution that are requirements are at URI.
22:18:04 [silvia]
this is our media accessibility requirements document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
22:18:07 [AllanJ]
... perhaps wiki page. that way we have a starting point, and the problems we solved
22:19:09 [AllanJ]
jf: jb talked about other groups to review. do we have to chase after other groups, or say here is the info - review at will.
22:20:34 [AllanJ]
jb: looks like lots of groups have been approached. would like to know who, so I can use my contacts to forward the work of the group. need a single requirements. will commit to review these documents.
22:20:41 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
22:20:41 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
22:20:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:21:07 [janina]
zakim, this is WAI_PF(Media
22:21:07 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named 'WAI_PF(Media' in progress or scheduled at this time
22:21:24 [AllanJ]
jf: in minutes of this meeting are lots of URI. could combine all requirements into one
22:21:43 [AllanJ]
... there are several technologies referencing similar things
22:22:11 [AllanJ]
... smile, etc. lots of overlap, hard to look 5 years in future.
22:22:44 [AllanJ]
... getting a sense of scale and timeline for a deliverable has not yet been done
22:23:00 [AllanJ]
.../s/smile/smil
22:24:07 [AllanJ]
dick: have been pointing out challenges. getting responses of 'too far down path a'
22:24:32 [AllanJ]
... long term vs short term. want to know constraints
22:25:14 [AllanJ]
... guidance on input needed,
22:25:48 [AllanJ]
sylvia: 'too far down the path'... only the implemented video element in html5.
22:26:27 [AllanJ]
... that is fixed. trying to make that accessible (captions, audio description)
22:26:48 [AllanJ]
... smil is out of scope.
22:27:24 [AllanJ]
... still a need to develop a larger picture, need to solve the short term problems
22:28:07 [AllanJ]
jf: having a requirements document may help focus efforts.
22:28:26 [AllanJ]
... smil and daisy have legitimate concerns.
22:28:48 [AllanJ]
... video is being used now. how do we solve that problem.
22:29:14 [AllanJ]
js: daisy should be on call
22:29:32 [AllanJ]
kenny: yes daisy is here.
22:30:16 [AllanJ]
jb: requirements would be good
22:30:34 [AllanJ]
jf: would help set timelines also
22:31:57 [AllanJ]
?? if something violate a longterm need but meets a shortterm need, how do we resolve.
22:32:13 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
22:32:13 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
22:32:42 [judy]
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22:32:44 [AllanJ]
topic: multitrack api
22:33:32 [AllanJ]
dickbolterman: activation of embedded content tracks, this api meets this need.
22:35:12 [AllanJ]
resolution: the media sub team recommends the multitrack API at @@
22:35:22 [judy]
Zakim, this is WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:35:22 [Zakim]
ok, judy; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM
22:35:32 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
22:35:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, ??P1, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.2.801.2.aabb, +61.3.986.4.aacc
22:35:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:36:04 [AllanJ]
topic: media/text association
22:36:28 [AllanJ]
db: also related to item 3
22:36:51 [AllanJ]
... main concern - current vido and audo objects have multiple functions.
22:36:52 [Zakim]
-Eric
22:37:12 [Zakim]
+Eric
22:37:15 [AllanJ]
... content, selection, and time containers
22:37:32 [AllanJ]
... all are being integrated into one object
22:38:06 [AllanJ]
... tried to integrate SMIL processing model with 'switch'
22:38:41 [AllanJ]
... proble: introduction of time contaiiner. secheulde independent objects.
22:38:58 [AllanJ]
... we are not just choosing from among available tracks
22:39:24 [AllanJ]
... we are gathering different tracks from different places
22:39:40 [AllanJ]
... also links in captions
22:41:08 [AllanJ]
... pairing audio w/ video, should be same as pairing captions w/ video, or audio description w/ video
22:42:05 [AllanJ]
jf: technology is browse window. they are reaching the point that they can't do everything that a standalone player can
22:42:32 [AllanJ]
... do we focus on browsers as they are now, or what they can do in the future
22:43:36 [AllanJ]
db: absolutely browser window. reasonable that captions can be place on, above, below, etc the video. we are adopting old TV model. TV now is moving away from old model
22:43:54 [AllanJ]
... extended functionality can work in the current object.
22:45:00 [AllanJ]
sylvia: disagree with this model. mentioned video with time containers. in html5 video is only audio and video with one timeline. slideshows are a different thing.
22:45:42 [AllanJ]
... source selection with only 1 time line.
22:46:03 [AllanJ]
... switch element is out of html5
22:46:27 [AllanJ]
... tracks for captions and audio descriptions are not independent time ines.
22:46:55 [AllanJ]
... they are dependent on the one AV timeline. this is a big difference.
22:47:35 [AllanJ]
... need to solve accessibility first. other proposals are after this.
22:48:02 [AllanJ]
db: is one selection with one timeline can agree.
22:48:21 [AllanJ]
... if fetching a track comes in late then what happens.
22:49:02 [AllanJ]
... need to match time if things are coming from separate files.
22:49:32 [AllanJ]
... if you don't want this, then must define captions as embeded within video.
22:49:56 [AllanJ]
... could have many track, karoke, etc. they are real problems. and here now.
22:50:44 [AllanJ]
sylvia: map all timelines to the base video timeline. multiple files will not break this simple algorithm
22:51:40 [AllanJ]
... soucing from different servers. if things don't arrive at the same time, too bad. can't hold the video.
22:52:18 [AllanJ]
db: if you need the captions to get the information, then throwing them out is not a good plan.
22:52:46 [AllanJ]
sylvia: video won't start until captions are there.
22:53:29 [AllanJ]
db: if you have small device with long video. need to support the simple soulution first, but address the complex one in the future.
22:54:22 [AllanJ]
eric: media engine composed media files on demand.
22:54:54 [AllanJ]
... need to define specific rules about timing. all media must be there before it starts.
22:55:07 [AllanJ]
... not sure how this is different from what we have now.
22:55:44 [AllanJ]
db: is inside the video element the proper place to do the time composition.
22:56:27 [AllanJ]
eric: must agree with sylvia. already have this situation. media file is time container. and can reference external media
22:56:51 [AllanJ]
db: if you have embedding media, the rendering engine...
22:57:14 [AllanJ]
eric: not the case. the mdia samples may come from external file.
22:57:42 [AllanJ]
... there is one master timeline in the container. controled by the browser
22:58:48 [AllanJ]
db: hyperlinks in a text file, to link to other objects or navigate within a media. so the subbordinate textfile is controlling the parent object
22:59:08 [AllanJ]
sylvia: it doesn't matter. just points to an offset in the video
22:59:32 [AllanJ]
db: if in same file and point 20 sec into the future......
23:00:05 [AllanJ]
sh: that is not how timetext works.
23:00:23 [AllanJ]
db: author has to know what video encoding is being use.
23:00:54 [AllanJ]
sh: whichever is playing controls the clock. can sample forward or backward
23:02:16 [AllanJ]
Discussion of intricacies of timedtext and smil timing model
23:02:54 [judy]
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23:03:18 [AllanJ]
sh: what does a hyperlink actually do in a caption file. none of it has been defined.
23:03:45 [AllanJ]
jf: do we need to bring up hyperlinks in the requirements documents
23:04:32 [AllanJ]
jf: srt, dxfp, and styling of textfiles.
23:04:54 [AllanJ]
... accessibility, changing style is need.
23:04:54 [gfreed]
just for the record, i think we do need to look at hyperlinking when the time is appropriate.
23:05:25 [AllanJ]
... can't do this with srt. then do we look a timedtext or dxfp
23:05:42 [AllanJ]
... but browsers say it is too complex.
23:05:47 [Zakim]
- +61.2.801.2.aabb
23:06:09 [AllanJ]
db: need to keep options limited.
23:06:32 [AllanJ]
... text association models have different semantics
23:06:50 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.801.2.aadd
23:07:08 [AllanJ]
?? correction, srt will use the browser default style sheet, modifiable by the user.
23:07:19 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
23:07:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, ??P1, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.3.986.4.aacc, Eric, +61.2.801.2.aadd
23:07:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
23:07:26 [AllanJ]
jf: what about the author having some control?
23:07:53 [AllanJ]
eric: basic srt does not have this (styling by author)
23:08:22 [AllanJ]
jf: styling could allow placement of captions, above, below, bubbles, etc.
23:08:54 [AllanJ]
eric: need a solution to allow the author to style. otherwise, not going to fly.
23:09:18 [AllanJ]
... problem with dxfp is how stylse is expressed.
23:09:49 [AllanJ]
sh: xsfo has css properties through xsl.
23:09:51 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
23:10:17 [AllanJ]
gf: one model about styling on captions is repurposing captions from other media.
23:10:55 [AllanJ]
.... may have colors fonts, etc so they can transfer to the web.
23:11:28 [AllanJ]
sylvia: dxfp problems, no support for ruby and i18n.
23:11:45 [AllanJ]
sh: not ruby markup but can display ruby text.
23:12:01 [AllanJ]
jf: srt doesn't support ruby either
23:12:30 [AllanJ]
sylvia: srt is simplistic solution. determining the requirements on whatwg
23:13:20 [AllanJ]
... ... what format exists to support stylihg requirement. currently, none.
23:13:33 [Zakim]
- +61.3.986.4.aacc
23:13:33 [AllanJ]
jf: yikes!
23:13:45 [AllanJ]
... requiring ruby is a good thing.
23:14:18 [AllanJ]
sylvia: ian is mashingup and format to meet requirements. need feedback and comments.
23:14:31 [janina]
zakim, +31 is Dick_Bolterman
23:14:31 [Zakim]
+Dick_Bolterman; got it
23:14:42 [AllanJ]
... it will likely be the format speced
23:15:02 [AllanJ]
jf: this covers item 4 also
23:15:18 [judy]
q+
23:15:29 [AllanJ]
... time is ticking. htmwg is looking to solve or they will be closed.
23:15:35 [judy]
q+ to comment on question of timeline
23:16:16 [AllanJ]
... need to get a requirements document, need to focus on that, and try to set timeline
23:16:25 [AllanJ]
... and get started on the work
23:16:53 [AllanJ]
... html5 video is already on the web.
23:17:06 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:17:06 [Zakim]
sorry, silvia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
23:17:50 [silvia]
zakim, I am aacc
23:17:50 [Zakim]
sorry, silvia, I do not see a party named 'aacc'
23:18:21 [silvia]
zakim, silvia is aadd
23:18:21 [Zakim]
sorry, silvia, I do not recognize a party named 'silvia'
23:18:31 [AllanJ]
jb: number if a11y issues. media is an important issue. TF chairs wre working with html5 to move things along.
23:18:53 [AllanJ]
... coordination calls ongoing.
23:19:22 [AllanJ]
... this is a complicated area. discussion today reinforces the need for requirements.
23:19:53 [AllanJ]
... it comes up in every topic. reaching consensus on requirements is needed
23:20:04 [AllanJ]
... need one document
23:20:54 [AllanJ]
... htmlwg chairs understand that media needs to be done right, and will take some time.
23:21:39 [AllanJ]
js: underscore doing it 'right', timeline must be realistic.
23:21:55 [AllanJ]
regular telecons. have scheduled 10.
23:22:57 [AllanJ]
...post one set of requirements. set short term goals, then see where we are
23:23:53 [AllanJ]
... need to get to a consensus
23:24:34 [Zakim]
-Dick_Bolterman
23:25:24 [AllanJ]
jf: need a single concensed requirements document. short term and long term. will create soon.
23:25:53 [AllanJ]
Action: jf to create requirements a11y media accessibility document
23:25:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-27 - Create requirements a11y media accessibility document [on John Foliot - due 2010-05-05].
23:26:28 [AllanJ]
... will ahve conference call for next few weeks, then reassess frequency of calls
23:28:00 [janina]
zakim, +61.2.208 is Silvia_Pfeifer
23:28:00 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+61.2.208'
23:28:09 [janina]
zakim, +61 is Kenny_Johar
23:28:09 [Zakim]
+Kenny_Johar; got it
23:28:12 [Zakim]
-Geoff_Freed
23:28:14 [Zakim]
-Eric
23:28:14 [Zakim]
-??P1
23:28:17 [Zakim]
-Judy
23:28:18 [Zakim]
-Kenny_Johar
23:28:22 [janina]
zakim, p1 is Eric_carlson
23:28:22 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'p1'
23:29:26 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
23:29:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, who is here?
23:29:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Janina_Sajka
23:30:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
23:31:13 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
23:31:13 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Eric, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.2.801.2.aabb, +61.3.986.4.aacc, +61.2.801.2.aadd,
23:31:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:17 [Zakim]
... Dick_Bolterman, Kenny_Johar
23:32:12 [AllanJ]
rssagent, make minutes
23:33:01 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:33:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html AllanJ
23:33:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
23:34:20 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:34:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html AllanJ
23:34:53 [gfreed]
gfreed has left #html-a11y
23:34:57 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y