15:53:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-irc
15:53:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:53:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:53:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:39 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:53:39 <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2010
15:53:44 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed
15:53:48 <nunolopes> And I'm always complaining I never win anything :)
15:54:08 <mhausenblas> scribenick: nunolopes 
15:54:27 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Apr/0037.html
15:54:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:54:39 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:21 <juansequeda> Unfortunately, Dan sends his regrets. He has to attend an urgent meeting
15:57:04 <Ahmed> Ahmed has joined #RDB2RDF
15:58:33 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:58:33 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, mhausenblas
15:58:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
15:58:37 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:58:41 <Zakim> + +1.512.471.aaaa
15:59:05 <juansequeda> Zakim, aa is me
15:59:13 <Zakim> sorry, juansequeda, I do not recognize a party named 'aa'
15:59:21 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
15:59:22 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is juansequeda 
15:59:23 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
15:59:36 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is me
15:59:36 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
15:59:45 <mhausenblas> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas 
15:59:45 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
15:59:53 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aacc
15:59:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:59:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, +1.781.273.aacc
15:59:56 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
15:59:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:00:08 <MacTed> Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software
16:00:08 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
16:00:14 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:14 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:00:19 <whalb> whalb has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:48 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:00:50 <afogarol> afogarol has joined #RDB2RDF
16:00:53 <Zakim> + +043316876aadd
16:01:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aadd is whalb 
16:01:02 <Zakim> +whalb; got it
16:01:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb
16:01:21 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:22 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
16:01:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see afogarol, whalb, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:01:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:16 <Zakim> + +49.322.222.0.aaee
16:02:28 <souri> souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:38 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
16:02:39 <Zakim> +??P18
16:02:46 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaee is soeren 
16:02:46 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
16:02:50 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:51 <Zakim> -soeren
16:02:57 <lima> lima has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:09 <mhausenblas> Zakim, IPcaller is lima 
16:03:09 <Zakim> +lima; got it
16:03:22 <mhausenblas> soeren, seems we've lost you on phone again
16:03:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, lima, ??P18, Souri
16:03:37 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
16:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see lima, soeren, souri, Ashok, afogarol, whalb, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:03:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, P18 is Ahmed 
16:03:51 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
16:03:55 <Zakim> + +039046128aaff
16:03:55 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:03:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P18 is Ahmed 
16:03:57 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:03:59 <Zakim> +Ahmed; got it
16:04:01 <Zakim> +EricP
16:04:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:04:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, lima, Ahmed, Souri, +039046128aaff, EricP
16:04:12 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
16:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see lima, soeren, souri, Ashok, afogarol, whalb, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:04:27 <Zakim> +soeren
16:04:56 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaff is afogarol 
16:04:56 <Zakim> +afogarol; got it
16:05:00 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, lima, Ahmed, Souri, afogarol, EricP, soeren
16:05:02 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
16:05:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see lima, soeren, souri, Ashok, afogarol, whalb, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:05:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:06:21 <nunolopes> Topic: Admin
16:06:27 <mhausenblas> Zakim, IPCaller is Orri
16:06:27 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
16:06:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:06:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, lima, Ahmed, Souri, afogarol, EricP, soeren, Orri
16:06:36 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes
16:06:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see lima, soeren, souri, Ashok, afogarol, whalb, Ahmed, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, hhalpin, LeeF, MacTed, nunolopes, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:07:09 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
16:08:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:10 <nunolopes> PROPOSAL: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:08:16 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:08:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aagg is Seema 
16:08:19 <Zakim> +Seema; got it
16:08:20 <mhausenblas> +1
16:08:23 <hhalpin> +1
16:08:27 <nunolopes> ACCEPTED
16:08:50 <nunolopes> RESOLUTION: minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-rdb2rdf-minutes.html accepted
16:09:14 <nunolopes> Topic: Use Cases
16:09:18 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:09:20 <nunolopes> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/
16:09:25 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
16:09:25 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:10:12 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: update on use-cases, creating use case document with ericP
16:10:35 <nunolopes> … based on pages from the wiki
16:10:50 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/ UC&R publication draft
16:11:31 <nunolopes> … overall structure of document: introduction, usecases, requirements
16:12:02 <nunolopes> intro contains motivation and background
16:12:22 <nunolopes> … and the setting for RDB2RDF
16:13:16 <nunolopes> … any alternatives /suggestions to the overall structure?
16:13:57 <nunolopes> juansequeda: I though angela, dan and I were going to work on this document
16:14:18 <hhalpin> q+
16:14:24 <nunolopes> … wans't it supposed to show as well why we should do RDB2RDF
16:15:03 <nunolopes> … this is something not present at the moment
16:15:09 <MacTed> q+
16:15:48 <nunolopes> … what we were working on includes a more overall structure, that is not included in this document
16:16:13 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
16:16:44 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:16:57 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute hhalpin 
16:16:57 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not know which phone connection belongs to hhalpin
16:17:04 <ericP> Zakim, please mute hhalpin 
16:17:04 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not know which phone connection belongs to hhalpin
16:17:07 <hhalpin> q+
16:17:09 <ericP> Zakim, please unmute hhalpin 
16:17:09 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not know which phone connection belongs to hhalpin
16:17:45 <nunolopes> MacTed: discussion on the generic cases and providing specific examples, which is what we call the current usecases
16:18:06 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-use-cases/
16:18:06 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/#use-cases
16:18:16 <nunolopes> … 3 generic cases
16:19:45 <nunolopes> … we have several examples of rdb2rdb, 1 rdb2rdf, no examples of rdb for web
16:20:05 <nunolopes> … the document should go from simple cases to the more complex
16:20:16 <nunolopes> … if the complex cases are not needed should be droped
16:20:33 <nunolopes> … going from generic usecases to more specific
16:20:48 <nunolopes> … this is very  much focused on implementation details
16:21:09 <ericP> q+ to describe the XQuery Use Cases and Requirements document
16:21:19 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: agreed, and the target audience of the docment should be on the document
16:21:44 <nunolopes> … to juan, most of your suggesttions are in section 1.1
16:21:58 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/#uc
16:22:08 <nunolopes> juansequeda: my concern is about section 2
16:22:27 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: do we talk about the overall structure or go to the specific sections
16:22:30 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:22:30 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to describe the XQuery Use Cases and Requirements document
16:22:54 <nunolopes> ericP: the most succssfull use cases was the xquery usecase document
16:22:54 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-use-cases/
16:23:08 <nunolopes> … served as a guide not only to the users but also for the WG
16:23:34 <nunolopes> … to determine what is already done/missing
16:24:43 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: we also though about merging the two approaches, having a generic overview and a more detailed description
16:26:19 <hhalpin> q- hhalpin
16:26:30 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: going through the document
16:26:50 <nunolopes> Ahmed: the motivations section is missing
16:27:06 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: I created 2 subsections in sec 1
16:27:16 <nunolopes> … 1.1 is why to map
16:27:28 <nunolopes> … 1.2 is the more concrete usecases
16:28:07 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/
16:28:45 <nunolopes> … here should be revision 1.11
16:28:58 <nunolopes> s/1.11/1.12/
16:29:51 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: at the end of 1.1 has an extention about the overview of RDB2RDF and some more definitions
16:29:52 <Zakim> -soeren
16:30:19 <Zakim> +soeren
16:30:33 <nunolopes> juansequeda: i'm ok with Section 1
16:31:00 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: 1.2 is why a standard RDB2RDF method
16:31:12 <hhalpin> well there has been argument against a standard from at least one person :)
16:31:14 <nunolopes> … a bit unusual for W3C but I think it's a good idea
16:31:47 <nunolopes> Ashok: at the end of the section you have a quote, it should be a paragraph?
16:32:36 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: only due to missuse of XML spec … need to work on this
16:33:16 <nunolopes> … also pointing out we are only dealing with read-only access
16:33:22 <afogarol> +1
16:33:27 <nunolopes> … any other comments on Section 1?
16:33:49 <nunolopes> … No, moving to Section 2
16:34:14 <nunolopes> …. we took the old wiki page here and we have a new structure in the old wiki location
16:34:40 <nunolopes> MacTed: this doesn't reflect the primitives I mentioned before.
16:35:07 <MacTed> 11:00:35 <MacTed> 1. joining incompatible RDB schema (fully structured data)
16:35:07 <MacTed> 11:00:35 <MacTed> 2. joining RDB against RDF (semi-structured data)
16:35:07 <MacTed> 11:00:35 <MacTed> 3. joining RDB against the Web (unstructured data)
16:35:08 <mhausenblas> clarification re old and new UC
16:35:14 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements is the NEW
16:35:30 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Draft_of_Use_Cases is the OLD (content)
16:36:11 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: you are proposing 3 generic uses , 1 incompativble RDB schema
16:36:46 <nunolopes> … any better title for this use case?
16:37:01 <nunolopes> Ahmed: Database integration
16:37:38 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Use_Cases
16:37:52 <nunolopes> … 2. joining RDB against RDF. Do we have a more specific use case on this?
16:38:21 <nunolopes> juansequeda: we have 3 use cases in the document
16:38:50 <nunolopes> … aligned with the 3 topics MacTed was talking about
16:39:47 <nunolopes> soeren: 2.3 Integrating Enterprise Relational databases  is not a use case for RDB2RDF
16:40:01 <nunolopes> disagreed in general
16:41:04 <nunolopes> MacTed: all the usecases have the generic topic of integrating data
16:41:23 <hhalpin> this is not contradictory
16:42:07 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:42:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:42:09 <nunolopes> Ahmed: these integrations can all map to RDF, shouldn't be a problem
16:42:37 <nunolopes> MacTed: integration with existing RDF 
16:43:09 <nunolopes> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:43:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-minutes.html nunolopes
16:45:55 <nunolopes> juansequeda: all the scenarios are different, although all refering to integration
16:46:24 <mhausenblas> q+
16:47:35 <mhausenblas> agree, hhalpin - we should get on with it
16:47:45 <nunolopes> MacTed: the mapping can be done in seperate stages..
16:47:56 <hhalpin> q+
16:48:15 <nunolopes> … transforming RDB to RDF does not mean you can asnwer the question you want
16:48:26 <mhausenblas> q+
16:48:27 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:48:32 <afogarol> q+
16:48:37 <nunolopes> … may be necessarey to have other steps like reasoning
16:49:24 <souri> +1 to MacTed, and question: what is in the scope of our charter?
16:49:47 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:49:58 <afogarol> q-
16:50:00 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: 2 issues: structured usecases
16:50:04 <mhausenblas> q?
16:50:06 <nunolopes> … flat model with all use cases
16:50:16 <juansequeda> +1 mhausenblas We need to choose one
16:50:31 <mhausenblas> q?
16:50:44 <mhausenblas> ack afogarol 
16:50:47 <mhausenblas> q?
16:51:11 <ericP> q+ to suggest we can make our lives easier if we document only our expressivity
16:51:16 <nunolopes> angela: there is some work to be done after the mapping but these are not part of our work
16:51:42 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:51:42 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to suggest we can make our lives easier if we document only our expressivity
16:51:42 <ericP> ack me
16:51:47 <nunolopes> Ahmed: agreed, mapping is not the same as data integration
16:52:18 <souri> we can include the extra steps in the UseCases, but also point out where RDB2RDF will stop and what is extra
16:52:19 <nunolopes> hhalpin: write the doc to inform people why it's usefull, or we can just report on the expressivity
16:52:23 <juansequeda> q+
16:52:49 <nunolopes> … proposing we don't try to agree on wording  on how we talk about next steps
16:52:59 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda
16:52:59 <nunolopes> Ahmed: agreed, 
16:53:07 <hhalpin> I'll just type it it:
16:53:22 <hhalpin> we need at this point to only accept exact text proposal
16:53:36 <hhalpin> not high-level discussions that do not have exact proposals
16:53:43 <nunolopes> juansequeda: I agree with mhausenblas, we can come up with new use cases and not classify them
16:53:52 <nunolopes> … we can think about the role of the ontology
16:54:03 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: we go ahead with the flat format
16:54:32 <nunolopes> … Section 3, Requirement
16:54:35 <hhalpin> Zakim, what's the code?
16:54:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 7322733 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hhalpin
16:54:47 <ericP> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:54:58 <Zakim> ericP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mhausenblas (40%), MacTed (26%), soeren (24%)
16:55:23 <nunolopes> … 3.1 section expressivitty, 3 concrete requirenmnets
16:55:45 <nunolopes> … did not include the language requirements from the charter
16:56:10 <nunolopes> …. unless we come up with concrete requirements from those
16:56:52 <nunolopes> soeren: we need to extend this section
16:56:52 <Zakim> -soeren
16:57:01 <nunolopes> … attaching metadata
16:57:04 <ericP> weak!
16:57:36 <Zakim> +soeren
16:58:27 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: any more suggestions?
16:58:37 <nunolopes> juansequeda: the usecases stiill needs some work
16:58:52 <nunolopes> ericP: we can revisit this after publication
16:59:10 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: we could publish what we have as a first working draft
16:59:33 <Zakim> +??P1
16:59:37 <nunolopes> ericP: this is not unusual to have still missing parts in the working drafts
16:59:43 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P1 is hhalpin
16:59:43 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
17:00:16 <hhalpin> q+
17:00:23 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
17:01:04 <nunolopes> ericP: when suggesting changes we should be more specific: this exact text should be added at some specific point
17:01:08 <nunolopes> mhausenblas: +1
17:01:29 <hhalpin> the editors can reserve the right to not do any changes if they are not provided any exact text
17:01:44 <nunolopes> … it really helps if we don't have to keep asking clarifications
17:03:08 <nunolopes> s/ericP/hhalpin/
17:03:26 <Zakim> -Ahmed
17:03:29 <nunolopes> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:03:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-minutes.html nunolopes
17:03:30 <Zakim> -Seema
17:03:32 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:03:34 <Zakim> -soeren
17:03:36 <Zakim> -lima
17:03:38 <Zakim> -Souri
17:03:43 <Zakim> -EricP
17:03:44 <Zakim> -whalb
17:03:45 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:48 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:03:50 <Zakim> -Orri
17:03:54 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:03:54 <nunolopes> adjouned
17:03:59 <Zakim> -afogarol
17:04:12 <mhausenblas> s/ adjouned/adjourned 
17:04:30 <nunolopes> s/adjouned/adjourned/
17:05:05 <nunolopes> zakim, list attendees
17:05:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.471.aaaa, +3539149aabb, juansequeda, mhausenblas, nunolopes, +1.781.273.aacc, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, +043316876aadd, whalb,
17:05:08 <Zakim> ... +49.322.222.0.aaee, soeren, Souri, lima, +039046128aaff, Ahmed, EricP, afogarol, Orri, +1.603.897.aagg, [IPcaller], Seema, cygri, hhalpin
17:05:14 <nunolopes> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/20-rdb2rdf-minutes.html nunolopes
17:05:50 <afogarol> thanks guys for the work you have done on the use cases..let me know if you need help
17:06:04 <nunolopes> Zakim, bye
17:06:04 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.512.471.aaaa, +3539149aabb, juansequeda, mhausenblas, nunolopes, +1.781.273.aacc, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, +043316876aadd, whalb,
17:06:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #RDB2RDF
17:06:07 <Zakim> ... +49.322.222.0.aaee, soeren, Souri, lima, +039046128aaff, Ahmed, EricP, afogarol, Orri, +1.603.897.aagg, [IPcaller], Seema, cygri, hhalpin
17:06:18 <nunolopes> RRSAgent, bye
17:06:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items