IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-04-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:56:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:56:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:56:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:56:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:56:13 [trackbot]
Date: 15 April 2010
14:56:17 [MichaelC]
14:56:22 [MichaelC]
chair: Janina_Sajka
14:56:55 [MichaelC]
regrets: Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Aurélien_Levy, Geoff_Freed, Markku_Hakkinen
14:56:59 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:57:06 [Zakim]
14:57:19 [eric]
eric has joined #html-a11y
14:57:20 [Zakim]
14:59:37 [Marco_Ranon]
Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
14:59:38 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
14:59:48 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
14:59:49 [Zakim]
14:59:57 [janina]
zakim, call janina
14:59:57 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:00 [Zakim]
15:00:21 [Sean]
Sean has joined #html-a11y
15:00:57 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:01:05 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
15:01:22 [Zakim]
15:01:28 [Zakim]
15:01:32 [Zakim]
+ +49.179.103.aaaa
15:01:36 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
15:01:40 [Zakim]
15:01:42 [kliehm]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:52 [Zakim]
+kliehm; got it
15:01:54 [Zakim]
15:01:56 [Zakim]
15:02:08 [Zakim]
15:02:17 [paulc]
paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:02:22 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPCaller is Cynthia_Shelly
15:02:24 [Zakim]
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly; got it
15:02:39 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:02:39 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:39 [janina]
agenda: this
15:02:39 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:02:39 [janina]
agenda+ Future Discussion Preview: Setting Deadlines for Open Issues
15:02:40 [janina]
agenda+ Canvas Subteam Change Proposals
15:02:42 [janina]
agenda+ Media Subteam Update; Requirements; Telecon Scheduling
15:02:44 [janina]
agenda+ HTML ARIA Mappings Process Discussion
15:02:46 [janina]
agenda+ Current Call for Consensus
15:02:48 [janina]
agenda+ @Alt Discussion
15:02:48 [cyns]
cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:02:50 [janina]
agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review
15:02:53 [janina]
agenda+ New Business
15:02:55 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:02:57 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:02:59 [janina]
15:03:28 [Zakim]
15:03:37 [Marco_Ranon]
hi, using skype on a slow connection though. audio a bit jumpy at my end...
15:03:41 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
15:03:51 [oedipus]
if you didn't fill out DO SO NOW!
15:04:09 [Ben]
Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:04:18 [Zakim]
15:04:20 [Zakim]
15:04:21 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:04:22 [Zakim]
15:04:38 [Zakim]
15:04:42 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:04:44 [Zakim]
15:04:48 [Zakim]
15:04:52 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:04:57 [jongunderson]
jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:05:04 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P54 is Jon_Gunderson
15:05:17 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:05:20 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
15:05:22 [Zakim]
15:05:24 [Zakim]
+Jon_Gunderson; got it
15:05:31 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:05:34 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, kliehm (muted), Erik_Carlson, Janina_Sajka, Cynthia_Shelly, Dick_Bulterman (muted), Marco_Ranon,
15:05:38 [kliehm]
15:05:40 [Zakim]
... Steve_Faulkner, Jon_Gunderson, David_Bolter, Ben, MikeSmith, [Microsoft]
15:05:42 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:05:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jongunderson, Ben, MikeSmith, cyns, paulc, Stevef, Sean, eric_carlson, janina, Marco_Ranon, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, trackbot
15:06:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:06:44 [kliehm]
scribe: kliehm
15:07:31 [kliehm]
15:08:20 [MichaelC]
action-20 due 30 May
15:08:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-20 Dig up history on column element due date now 30 May
15:08:35 [oedipus]
15:08:47 [MichaelC]
close action-23
15:08:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-23 Write proposal for imagemaps on canvas closed
15:09:04 [oedipus]
15:09:27 [oedipus]
15:09:28 [MichaelC]
close action-24
15:09:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-24 Raise bug on ARIA being restricted to a11y closed
15:10:03 [MichaelC]
action-25 due 22 April
15:10:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 Post notice to a11y TF about and how to make comments due date now 22 April
15:10:33 [Zakim]
15:11:03 [oedipus]
15:11:04 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:11:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:11:47 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Setting Deadlines for Open Issues
15:11:55 [kliehm]
15:12:40 [kliehm]
Janina: We should be setting reasonable deadlines for various issues next Thursday.
15:12:53 [kliehm]
15:13:32 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Canvas Subteam Change Proposals
15:15:02 [kliehm]
One proposal has been forwarded, Rich is working on another. At the Birmingham face-2-face meeting Charles committed to write another proposal, too.
15:15:37 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Media Subteam Update
15:16:00 [kliehm]
John Foliot will set up a telcon date early next week.
15:16:50 [MikeSmith]
I'm here
15:17:36 [kliehm]
Dick Bulterman: I sent out a complementary proposal about text requirements that should be sent to the list and added in the Wiki.
15:19:02 [oedipus]
RichS' most recent Canvas 2D Draft with a11y:"> (cover letter:
15:19:48 [oedipus]
15:20:02 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Calls for Consensus
15:20:15 [oedipus]
15:20:25 [oedipus]
15:21:20 [kliehm]
Janina: please vote on the CfC (deadline tonight)
15:22:36 [kliehm]
Janina giving an overview about the current state of votes on
15:22:36 [Zakim]
15:22:51 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #html-a11y
15:23:02 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
15:23:02 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
15:24:14 [oedipus]
Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-30 longdesc vote total as of time of typing: 14 yes, 16 no
15:24:20 [kliehm]
Steve Faulkner: Maciej had questions on the title attribute that Steve cleared.
15:24:26 [oedipus]
Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-66 image-analysis vote total as of time of typing: 17 yes 2 no
15:24:34 [oedipus]
Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-80 Title vote total as of time of typing: 18 yes 1 no
15:24:43 [oedipus]
Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 vote total as of time of typing: 16 yes, 5 no
15:25:08 [kliehm]
Jon Gunderson: What is the process? Advance votes where there is a consensus to the WG?
15:25:13 [kliehm]
Janina: Yes.
15:25:21 [oedipus]
s/14 yes, 16 no/14 yes, 6 no/
15:25:24 [cyns]
15:25:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:26:09 [Stevef]
15:26:47 [kliehm]
Jon: We are dependend on browser developers to implements the elements. The spec is huge, we should consider making it less complicated by removing obsolete elements.
15:27:31 [kliehm]
Cynthia: To my knowledge browser manufacturers don not oppose the elements.
15:27:50 [kliehm]
Janina: Only one individual in the WG opposed them.
15:28:08 [kliehm]
s/don not/do not/
15:29:14 [kliehm]
Janina: The voting is open until midnight Boston time (4 AM UTC), you can still change votes.
15:29:31 [kliehm]
TOPIC: @Alt Discussion
15:29:57 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kelly_Ford
15:31:35 [kliehm]
Janina: We looked at Laura's change proposal and it expresses with one minor change what the majority in Birmingham agreed on.
15:31:45 [oedipus]
15:32:23 [kliehm]
Janina: The discussion then focused whether a missing @alt should trigger a warning or an error message in a validator.
15:32:50 [oedipus]
GJR notes that disagreement strongest amongst those who wanted equal priority for missing @alt and missing @src in regards error/warning
15:32:54 [JF]
mikes link:
15:33:15 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
15:33:33 [cyns]
Is there a test file to try it with?
15:33:34 [oedipus]
15:34:03 [oedipus]
ack cyns
15:34:10 [Zakim]
15:34:20 [janina]
15:34:20 [kliehm]
Cynthia: Is wondering if there is a test file that could be submitted to the validator?
15:34:27 [Zakim]
15:34:28 [kliehm]
Steve: Will post a URL.
15:34:39 [JF]
15:34:44 [janina]
15:34:47 [Stevef]
ack Stevef
15:35:04 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #html-a11y
15:35:39 [janina]
15:35:43 [janina]
ack j
15:36:02 [cyns]
+1 to john that we need to talk about which is more important hard-error or pointer to WCAG
15:36:10 [dsinger]
15:36:26 [Stevef]
image alt test page
15:36:33 [cyns]
15:36:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
we are rehashing the face to face
15:37:05 [kliehm]
John: I have been talking about it on the weekend. We should embrace Mike's proposal. The @alt is the holy grail for all of us, I'm proposing a pragmatic compromise. It's an error, but that doesn't solve the problem. So "warning" is a compromise we should live with.
15:37:11 [JF]
not all were at the f2f rich
15:37:16 [cyns]
q+ to say that I think the hard-error is more important, because developers pay attention to errors and largely ignore warnings
15:37:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
i know
15:37:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:37:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:37:38 [oedipus]
ack ds
15:37:39 [janina]
15:38:51 [kliehm]
David Singer: People are unlikely to notice a new error because usually there are hundreds of them. We should prioritize our error and warning notices in the spec.
15:39:12 [dsinger]
15:40:25 [kliehm]
Cyntha: Agrees surpressing or categorizing errors would be useful. We should find a consensus. Although error messages get more attention from developers than warnings.
15:40:27 [oedipus]
GJR just wants missing @alt and @src accorded the same priority
15:40:32 [janina]
15:40:37 [janina]
ack c
15:40:37 [Zakim]
cyns, you wanted to say that I think the hard-error is more important, because developers pay attention to errors and largely ignore warnings
15:40:38 [janina]
ack r
15:41:14 [kliehm]
Rich: Most applications will never see a validator.
15:41:30 [janina]
15:41:40 [oedipus]
cyns, MikeSmith checker results for
15:41:42 [kliehm]
Rich: Maybe we whould have a classification of accessibility validator errors in HTML5.
15:41:53 [dsinger]
classification would mean that we could run validator on sites and ask *only* for accessibility errors and we'd get a useful report...
15:42:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:42:41 [kliehm]
BTW, Mike's missing @alt mail:
15:42:55 [oedipus]
are we talking about
15:43:01 [cyns]
The most importan thing is for developers to know that missing alt *is wrong*, not just *might be wrong*.
15:43:27 [cyns]
+1 to classifying errors
15:43:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:44:13 [JF]
+1 to that Rich
15:44:23 [kliehm]
Rich: We could adopt Open AJAX error classifications for HTML5.
15:44:34 [oedipus]
plus 1 to reusing Open AJAX error classifications
15:44:52 [cyns]
url for open ajax classifications?
15:44:55 [oedipus]
15:45:03 [kliehm]
Rich: Also Open AJAX classification catch dynamic content that a normal validator never catches.
15:45:43 [kliehm]
TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mapping
15:45:58 [cyns]
HTML to ARIA mapping
15:46:13 [kliehm]
15:46:29 [oedipus]
s/TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mappings/TOPIC: HTML to ARIA mapping/
15:47:51 [oedipus]
steveF, do you have the google docs spreadsheet URI handy to paste into IRC?
15:48:35 [kliehm]
Cynthia: The HTML5 spec allow very little overwriting of HTML elements by ARIA. Mapping is straightforward, deciding what is allowed to overwrite is more difficult. Grouping elements now. We made significant progress, need a little more discussion.
15:49:42 [paulc]
I have to drop off to get ready to scribe the HTML WG meeting.
15:50:07 [Stevef]
draft aria conformance
15:50:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:51:14 [kliehm]
[discussion whether headings and @alt should be overwritable]
15:51:54 [oedipus]
discussion of ARIA mapping from PFWG 2010-04-14 (member-only)
15:52:04 [kliehm]
Discussion continued on a telcon with Steve, Cynthia, Rich and David, schedule tbc.
15:52:11 [davidb]
15:54:22 [oedipus]
s/Canvas accessibility mapping/ARIA to HTML5 mapping/
15:54:59 [oedipus]
s/Canvas accessibility mappings/ARIA to HTML5 mapping/
15:55:40 [kliehm]
They will form a new subteam.
15:56:13 [kliehm]
TOPIC: New and open bugs
15:56:14 [kliehm]
15:56:24 [oedipus]
15:57:04 [oedipus]
MikeSmith, didn't laura prepare a proposed CAPTCHA survey on the wiki?
15:57:06 [Zakim]
15:57:13 [kliehm]
John: All new bugs seem to be related to a fundamental question what we do when images are incomplete.
15:57:50 [Zakim]
15:57:56 [kliehm]
John: 7 new bugs, most relate to text alternatives.
15:58:21 [oedipus]
draft CAPTCHA survey (laura)
15:58:34 [kliehm]
Janina: vote on the CfC, check out Mike Smith's test
15:58:56 [oedipus]
15:58:59 [JF]
Repeat - mikes link:
15:59:18 [Zakim]
15:59:25 [Zakim]
15:59:27 [Zakim]
15:59:29 [Zakim]
15:59:31 [Zakim]
15:59:31 [Marco_Ranon]
15:59:32 [Zakim]
15:59:32 [Zakim]
15:59:32 [Zakim]
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:34 [Zakim]
15:59:35 [davidb]
15:59:35 [kliehm]
rssagent, create minutes
15:59:36 [Zakim]
15:59:38 [Zakim]
15:59:42 [Zakim]
15:59:43 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
15:59:50 [dsinger]
dsinger has left #html-a11y
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:59 [kliehm]
RSSAgent, create minutes
16:00:00 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:00:28 [Zakim]
16:00:46 [kliehm]
RSSagent, create minutes
16:01:00 [kliehm]
RRSagent, create minutes
16:01:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kliehm
16:01:14 [kliehm]
rrsagent, stop log
16:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', kliehm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:57 [oedipus]
s/TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mapping/TOPIC: HTML to ARIA mapping/
16:02:10 [Zakim]
16:02:20 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:02:22 [Zakim]
16:02:22 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:22 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop Martin
16:02:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Janina, +49.179.103.aaaa, Erik_Carlson, kliehm, Janina_Sajka, Dick_Bulterman, Cynthia_Shelly, Sean_Hayes, Marco_Ranon,
16:02:28 [Zakim]
... Steve_Faulkner, Ben, David_Bolter, MikeSmith, Jon_Gunderson, paulc, Rich, dsinger, [Microsoft], Jim_Allan
16:02:32 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is
16:03:14 [kliehm]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:03:14 [Zakim]
sorry, kliehm, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:03:43 [oedipus]
present+ kliehm
16:03:52 [oedipus]
present- aaaa
16:03:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:04:55 [oedipus]
present- [49.179.103.aaaa]
16:05:04 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:06:17 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:13:54 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has left #html-a11y
16:41:46 [oedipus]
present- [+49.179.103.aaaa]
16:41:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:42:50 [oedipus]
s/rssagent, create minutes//
16:42:55 [oedipus]
s/RSSAgent, create minutes//
16:43:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:43:19 [oedipus]
present- +49.179.103.aaaa
16:43:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:43:47 [oedipus]
s/RSSagent, create minutes//
16:43:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:44:31 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items