IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-04-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:08 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y

14:56:08 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-irc

14:56:10 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:56:10 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #html-a11y

14:56:12 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

14:56:12 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:13 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:56:13 [trackbot]

Date: 15 April 2010

14:56:17 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0157.html

14:56:22 [MichaelC]

chair: Janina_Sajka

14:56:55 [MichaelC]

regrets: Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Aurélien_Levy, Geoff_Freed, Markku_Hakkinen

14:56:59 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started

14:57:06 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:57:19 [eric]

eric has joined #html-a11y

14:57:20 [Zakim]

+John_Foliot

14:59:37 [Marco_Ranon]

Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y

14:59:38 [janina]

janina has joined #html-a11y

14:59:48 [eric_carlson]

eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y

14:59:49 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:59:57 [janina]

zakim, call janina

14:59:57 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

15:00:00 [Zakim]

+Janina

15:00:21 [Sean]

Sean has joined #html-a11y

15:00:57 [Stevef]

Stevef has joined #html-a11y

15:01:05 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

15:01:22 [Zakim]

-Janina

15:01:28 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:01:32 [Zakim]

+ +49.179.103.aaaa

15:01:36 [Zakim]

sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'

15:01:40 [Zakim]

+Erik_Carlson

15:01:42 [kliehm]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:01:52 [Zakim]

+kliehm; got it

15:01:54 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka

15:01:56 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:02:08 [Zakim]

+Dick_Bulterman

15:02:17 [paulc]

paulc has joined #html-a11y

15:02:22 [MichaelC]

zakim, IPCaller is Cynthia_Shelly

15:02:24 [Zakim]

+??P49

15:02:32 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly; got it

15:02:39 [janina]

Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

15:02:39 [janina]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

15:02:39 [janina]

agenda: this

15:02:39 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Review

15:02:39 [janina]

agenda+ Future Discussion Preview: Setting Deadlines for Open Issues

15:02:40 [janina]

agenda+ Canvas Subteam Change Proposals

15:02:42 [janina]

agenda+ Media Subteam Update; Requirements; Telecon Scheduling

15:02:44 [janina]

agenda+ HTML ARIA Mappings Process Discussion

15:02:46 [janina]

agenda+ Current Call for Consensus http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/

15:02:48 [janina]

agenda+ @Alt Discussion

15:02:48 [cyns]

cyns has joined #html-a11y

15:02:50 [janina]

agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0168.html

15:02:53 [janina]

agenda+ New Business

15:02:55 [janina]

agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe

15:02:57 [janina]

agenda+ be done

15:02:59 [janina]

15:03:28 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:03:37 [Marco_Ranon]

hi, using skype on a slow connection though. audio a bit jumpy at my end...

15:03:41 [MikeSmith]

MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y

15:03:51 [oedipus]

if you didn't fill out http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/ DO SO NOW!

15:04:09 [Ben]

Ben has joined #html-a11y

15:04:18 [Zakim]

+??P54

15:04:20 [Zakim]

+[Mozilla]

15:04:21 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, call Mike

15:04:22 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:04:38 [Zakim]

+Ben

15:04:42 [Zakim]

ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made

15:04:44 [Zakim]

+Mike

15:04:48 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:04:52 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, Mike is me

15:04:57 [jongunderson]

jongunderson has joined #html-a11y

15:05:04 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P54 is Jon_Gunderson

15:05:17 [paulc]

zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc

15:05:20 [Zakim]

+MikeSmith; got it

15:05:22 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:05:24 [Zakim]

+Jon_Gunderson; got it

15:05:31 [Zakim]

+paulc; got it

15:05:34 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

15:05:34 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, kliehm (muted), Erik_Carlson, Janina_Sajka, Cynthia_Shelly, Dick_Bulterman (muted), Marco_Ranon,

15:05:38 [kliehm]

OK

15:05:40 [Zakim]

... Steve_Faulkner, Jon_Gunderson, David_Bolter, Ben, MikeSmith, [Microsoft]

15:05:42 [Zakim]

[Microsoft] has paulc

15:05:46 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jongunderson, Ben, MikeSmith, cyns, paulc, Stevef, Sean, eric_carlson, janina, Marco_Ranon, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, trackbot

15:06:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:06:44 [kliehm]

scribe: kliehm

15:07:31 [kliehm]

ACTION-2

15:08:20 [MichaelC]

action-20 due 30 May

15:08:21 [trackbot]

ACTION-20 Dig up history on column element due date now 30 May

15:08:35 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/

15:08:47 [MichaelC]

close action-23

15:08:47 [trackbot]

ACTION-23 Write proposal for imagemaps on canvas closed

15:09:04 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/23

15:09:27 [oedipus]

doh! http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/23

15:09:28 [MichaelC]

close action-24

15:09:28 [trackbot]

ACTION-24 Raise bug on ARIA being restricted to a11y closed

15:10:03 [MichaelC]

action-25 due 22 April

15:10:03 [trackbot]

ACTION-25 Post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments due date now 22 April

15:10:33 [Zakim]

+Rich

15:11:03 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Work_Topics

15:11:04 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y

15:11:24 [richardschwerdtfe]

manana

15:11:47 [kliehm]

TOPIC: Setting Deadlines for Open Issues

15:11:55 [kliehm]

Janina,

15:12:40 [kliehm]

Janina: We should be setting reasonable deadlines for various issues next Thursday.

15:12:53 [kliehm]

s/Janina,//

15:13:32 [kliehm]

TOPIC: Canvas Subteam Change Proposals

15:15:02 [kliehm]

One proposal has been forwarded, Rich is working on another. At the Birmingham face-2-face meeting Charles committed to write another proposal, too.

15:15:37 [kliehm]

TOPIC: Media Subteam Update

15:16:00 [kliehm]

John Foliot will set up a telcon date early next week.

15:16:50 [MikeSmith]

I'm here

15:17:36 [kliehm]

Dick Bulterman: I sent out a complementary proposal about text requirements that should be sent to the list and added in the Wiki.

15:19:02 [oedipus]

RichS' most recent Canvas 2D Draft with a11y: http://u.nu/2u6d8">http://u.nu/2u6d8 (cover letter: http://u.nu/2u6d8)

15:19:48 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media

15:20:02 [kliehm]

TOPIC: Calls for Consensus

15:20:15 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/

15:20:25 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/results

15:21:20 [kliehm]

Janina: please vote on the CfC (deadline tonight)

15:22:36 [kliehm]

Janina giving an overview about the current state of votes on http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/results

15:22:36 [Zakim]

+[Apple]

15:22:51 [dsinger]

dsinger has joined #html-a11y

15:23:02 [dsinger]

zakim, [apple] has dsinger

15:23:02 [Zakim]

+dsinger; got it

15:24:14 [oedipus]

Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-30 longdesc vote total as of time of typing: 14 yes, 16 no

15:24:20 [kliehm]

Steve Faulkner: Maciej had questions on the title attribute that Steve cleared.

15:24:26 [oedipus]

Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-66 image-analysis vote total as of time of typing: 17 yes 2 no

15:24:34 [oedipus]

Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUE-80 Title vote total as of time of typing: 18 yes 1 no

15:24:43 [oedipus]

Candidate TF Resolution: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 vote total as of time of typing: 16 yes, 5 no

15:25:08 [kliehm]

Jon Gunderson: What is the process? Advance votes where there is a consensus to the WG?

15:25:13 [kliehm]

Janina: Yes.

15:25:21 [oedipus]

s/14 yes, 16 no/14 yes, 6 no/

15:25:24 [cyns]

q+

15:25:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:26:09 [Stevef]

q+

15:26:47 [kliehm]

Jon: We are dependend on browser developers to implements the elements. The spec is huge, we should consider making it less complicated by removing obsolete elements.

15:27:31 [kliehm]

Cynthia: To my knowledge browser manufacturers don not oppose the elements.

15:27:50 [kliehm]

Janina: Only one individual in the WG opposed them.

15:28:08 [kliehm]

s/don not/do not/

15:29:14 [kliehm]

Janina: The voting is open until midnight Boston time (4 AM UTC), you can still change votes.

15:29:31 [kliehm]

TOPIC: @Alt Discussion

15:29:57 [oedipus]

regrets+ Kelly_Ford

15:31:35 [kliehm]

Janina: We looked at Laura's change proposal and it expresses with one minor change what the majority in Birmingham agreed on.

15:31:45 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-html-a11y-minutes.html#item08

15:32:23 [kliehm]

Janina: The discussion then focused whether a missing @alt should trigger a warning or an error message in a validator.

15:32:50 [oedipus]

GJR notes that disagreement strongest amongst those who wanted equal priority for missing @alt and missing @src in regards error/warning

15:32:54 [JF]

mikes link: http://www.w3.org/html/check

15:33:15 [frankolivier]

frankolivier has joined #html-a11y

15:33:33 [cyns]

Is there a test file to try it with?

15:33:34 [oedipus]

q?

15:34:03 [oedipus]

ack cyns

15:34:10 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft.a]

15:34:20 [janina]

q?

15:34:20 [kliehm]

Cynthia: Is wondering if there is a test file that could be submitted to the validator?

15:34:27 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

15:34:28 [kliehm]

Steve: Will post a URL.

15:34:39 [JF]

q+

15:34:44 [janina]

q?

15:34:47 [Stevef]

ack Stevef

15:35:04 [AllanJ]

AllanJ has joined #html-a11y

15:35:39 [janina]

q?

15:35:43 [janina]

ack j

15:36:02 [cyns]

+1 to john that we need to talk about which is more important hard-error or pointer to WCAG

15:36:10 [dsinger]

q+

15:36:26 [Stevef]

image alt test page http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/test.html

15:36:33 [cyns]

q+

15:36:49 [richardschwerdtfe]

we are rehashing the face to face

15:37:05 [kliehm]

John: I have been talking about it on the weekend. We should embrace Mike's proposal. The @alt is the holy grail for all of us, I'm proposing a pragmatic compromise. It's an error, but that doesn't solve the problem. So "warning" is a compromise we should live with.

15:37:11 [JF]

not all were at the f2f rich

15:37:16 [cyns]

q+ to say that I think the hard-error is more important, because developers pay attention to errors and largely ignore warnings

15:37:18 [richardschwerdtfe]

i know

15:37:24 [richardschwerdtfe]

frustrating

15:37:29 [richardschwerdtfe]

q+

15:37:38 [oedipus]

ack ds

15:37:39 [janina]

q?

15:38:51 [kliehm]

David Singer: People are unlikely to notice a new error because usually there are hundreds of them. We should prioritize our error and warning notices in the spec.

15:39:12 [dsinger]

s/prioritize/categorize/

15:40:25 [kliehm]

Cyntha: Agrees surpressing or categorizing errors would be useful. We should find a consensus. Although error messages get more attention from developers than warnings.

15:40:27 [oedipus]

GJR just wants missing @alt and @src accorded the same priority

15:40:32 [janina]

q?

15:40:37 [janina]

ack c

15:40:37 [Zakim]

cyns, you wanted to say that I think the hard-error is more important, because developers pay attention to errors and largely ignore warnings

15:40:38 [janina]

ack r

15:41:14 [kliehm]

Rich: Most applications will never see a validator.

15:41:30 [janina]

q?

15:41:40 [oedipus]

cyns, MikeSmith checker results for mrtweet.com http://u.nu/7zpd8

15:41:42 [kliehm]

Rich: Maybe we whould have a classification of accessibility validator errors in HTML5.

15:41:53 [dsinger]

classification would mean that we could run validator on sites and ask *only* for accessibility errors and we'd get a useful report...

15:42:28 [richardschwerdtfe]

agreed

15:42:41 [kliehm]

BTW, Mike's missing @alt mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0165.html

15:42:55 [oedipus]

are we talking about http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126#With_Suggested_Text

15:43:01 [cyns]

The most importan thing is for developers to know that missing alt *is wrong*, not just *might be wrong*.

15:43:27 [cyns]

+1 to classifying errors

15:43:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:44:13 [JF]

+1 to that Rich

15:44:23 [kliehm]

Rich: We could adopt Open AJAX error classifications for HTML5.

15:44:34 [oedipus]

plus 1 to reusing Open AJAX error classifications

15:44:52 [cyns]

url for open ajax classifications?

15:44:55 [oedipus]

http://www.openajax.org/index.php

15:45:03 [kliehm]

Rich: Also Open AJAX classification catch dynamic content that a normal validator never catches.

15:45:43 [kliehm]

TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mapping

15:45:58 [cyns]

HTML to ARIA mapping

15:46:13 [kliehm]

oops

15:46:29 [oedipus]

s/TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mappings/TOPIC: HTML to ARIA mapping/

15:47:51 [oedipus]

steveF, do you have the google docs spreadsheet URI handy to paste into IRC?

15:48:35 [kliehm]

Cynthia: The HTML5 spec allow very little overwriting of HTML elements by ARIA. Mapping is straightforward, deciding what is allowed to overwrite is more difficult. Grouping elements now. We made significant progress, need a little more discussion.

15:49:42 [paulc]

I have to drop off to get ready to scribe the HTML WG meeting.

15:50:07 [Stevef]

draft aria conformance http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5.html

15:50:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:51:14 [kliehm]

[discussion whether headings and @alt should be overwritable]

15:51:54 [oedipus]

discussion of ARIA mapping from PFWG 2010-04-14 (member-only) http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-pf-minutes.html#item09

15:52:04 [kliehm]

Discussion continued on a telcon with Steve, Cynthia, Rich and David, schedule tbc.

15:52:11 [davidb]

2015

15:54:22 [oedipus]

s/Canvas accessibility mapping/ARIA to HTML5 mapping/

15:54:59 [oedipus]

s/Canvas accessibility mappings/ARIA to HTML5 mapping/

15:55:40 [kliehm]

They will form a new subteam.

15:56:13 [kliehm]

TOPIC: New and open bugs

15:56:14 [kliehm]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0168.html

15:56:24 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0116.html

15:57:04 [oedipus]

MikeSmith, didn't laura prepare a proposed CAPTCHA survey on the wiki?

15:57:06 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:57:13 [kliehm]

John: All new bugs seem to be related to a fundamental question what we do when images are incomplete.

15:57:50 [Zakim]

-Sean_Hayes

15:57:56 [kliehm]

John: 7 new bugs, most relate to text alternatives.

15:58:21 [oedipus]

draft CAPTCHA survey (laura) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0436.html

15:58:34 [kliehm]

Janina: vote on the CfC, check out Mike Smith's test

15:58:56 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/200404_ftf-proposals/

15:58:59 [JF]

Repeat - mikes link: http://www.w3.org/html/check

15:59:18 [Zakim]

-Jon_Gunderson

15:59:25 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:59:27 [Zakim]

-Dick_Bulterman

15:59:29 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

15:59:31 [Zakim]

-David_Bolter

15:59:31 [Marco_Ranon]

bye

15:59:32 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

15:59:32 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft.a]

15:59:32 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:59:33 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:59:33 [Zakim]

-[Apple]

15:59:34 [Zakim]

-Erik_Carlson

15:59:35 [davidb]

ciao

15:59:35 [kliehm]

rssagent, create minutes

15:59:36 [Zakim]

-Janina_Sajka

15:59:38 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:59:42 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

15:59:43 [eric_carlson]

eric_carlson has left #html-a11y

15:59:50 [dsinger]

dsinger has left #html-a11y

15:59:52 [Zakim]

-Marco_Ranon

15:59:59 [kliehm]

RSSAgent, create minutes

16:00:00 [janina]

janina has left #html-a11y

16:00:28 [Zakim]

-MikeSmith

16:00:46 [kliehm]

RSSagent, create minutes

16:01:00 [kliehm]

RRSagent, create minutes

16:01:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm

16:01:14 [kliehm]

rrsagent, stop log

16:01:14 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', kliehm. Try /msg RRSAgent help

16:01:57 [oedipus]

s/TOPIC: Canvas accessibility mapping/TOPIC: HTML to ARIA mapping/

16:02:10 [Zakim]

-Steve_Faulkner

16:02:20 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:02:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:02:22 [Zakim]

-kliehm

16:02:22 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended

16:02:22 [MichaelC]

zakim, drop Martin

16:02:23 [Zakim]

Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Janina, +49.179.103.aaaa, Erik_Carlson, kliehm, Janina_Sajka, Dick_Bulterman, Cynthia_Shelly, Sean_Hayes, Marco_Ranon,

16:02:28 [Zakim]

... Steve_Faulkner, Ben, David_Bolter, MikeSmith, Jon_Gunderson, paulc, Rich, dsinger, [Microsoft], Jim_Allan

16:02:32 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is

16:03:14 [kliehm]

zakim, aaaa is me

16:03:14 [Zakim]

sorry, kliehm, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

16:03:43 [oedipus]

present+ kliehm

16:03:52 [oedipus]

present- aaaa

16:03:59 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:03:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:04:55 [oedipus]

present- [49.179.103.aaaa]

16:05:04 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:05:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:06:17 [Laura]

Laura has joined #html-a11y

16:13:54 [AllanJ]

AllanJ has left #html-a11y

16:41:46 [oedipus]

present- [+49.179.103.aaaa]

16:41:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:42:50 [oedipus]

s/rssagent, create minutes//

16:42:55 [oedipus]

s/RSSAgent, create minutes//

16:43:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:43:19 [oedipus]

present- +49.179.103.aaaa

16:43:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:43:47 [oedipus]

s/RSSagent, create minutes//

16:43:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:44:31 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items