IRC log of rdfa on 2010-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:34:35 [RRSAgent]

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13:34:35 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-irc

13:34:37 [Zakim]

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13:34:40 [trackbot]

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13:35:38 [manu]

trackbot, setup meeting

13:35:38 [trackbot]

Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

13:35:43 [manu]

trackbot, start meeting

13:35:45 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:35:47 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7332

13:35:47 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes

13:35:48 [trackbot]

Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference

13:35:48 [trackbot]

Date: 08 April 2010

13:36:07 [manu]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Apr/0026.html

13:36:28 [manu]

Regrets: Steven, Markus

13:37:00 [manu]

Present: Manu, Ivan, Dongmei, MarkB

13:42:11 [dongmei]

hi,manu,i'm a new user of IRC.

13:42:26 [manu]

ah, well you won't have to do much during the telecon

13:42:37 [manu]

we usually just use IRC to paste URLs or write out examples.

13:42:53 [manu]

IRC is also used by the person that is recording the minutes of the telecon - the scribe.

13:42:58 [manu]

is this your first W3C telecon?

13:43:10 [dongmei]

i know, this is my first teleconference

13:43:12 [dongmei]

yes

13:43:15 [manu]

ok

13:43:36 [manu]

well, usually what happens during a telecon is a review of action items, then we go through the agenda.

13:43:46 [manu]

todays agenda is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Apr/0026.html

13:44:31 [dongmei]

thank you

13:44:35 [manu]

This working group is currently trying to get our documents in order for our first publishing cycle - which is called First Public Working Draft

13:44:58 [dongmei]

i see

13:45:37 [manu]

We must submit the drafts next week to W3C Publications - at which time they will be announced and placed on the W3C website for public review.

13:46:24 [manu]

W3C Working groups are usually required to publish drafts every couple of months (usually 2-4 months) to demonstrate that we're making progress.

13:47:03 [dongmei]

what happens after the review, go to next draft?

13:47:09 [manu]

This Working group started in February 2010, so we're in the 3rd month of operation - thus, we're trying to demonstrate progress by publishing three documents: RDFa Core 1.1, XHTML+RDFa 1.1 and RDFa DOM API.

13:47:46 [manu]

Well, the review and working on the next draft happen at the same time... so while the public is reviewing the First Public Working Drafts, we work on the next draft in parallel

13:48:19 [dongmei]

i see

13:48:26 [markbirbeck]

Hi Manu. I'm going to have trouble making the call.

13:48:39 [manu]

ahh, too bad :(

13:48:43 [markbirbeck]

I've answered the poll, and I wanted to update you on the API.

13:48:45 [manu]

can you fill out the doodle form?

13:48:47 [manu]

ah

13:48:48 [manu]

ok

13:48:51 [manu]

thanks

13:49:03 [manu]

What's up with the API?

13:49:23 [manu]

Regrets+ MarkB

13:50:04 [markbirbeck]

I've written a wiki-based first draft, but it's not in a spec format. I was hoping to get Benjamin's input earlier this week but that didn't happen.

13:50:34 [markbirbeck]

If I work with him tomorrow afternoon (assuming he is free), will we still make your schedule?

13:50:53 [manu]

We submit to W3C Pubs next Thursday

13:51:05 [manu]

so as long as it's done before then (with a little time for review), then we're good.

13:51:38 [markbirbeck]

(I can be on IRC during the call, by the way, if you want to ask Benjamin what his availability is on the call. It's just that I've got a lot of things that must be done by close of play today.)

13:52:00 [markbirbeck]

Ok. Great.

13:52:04 [manu]

sure, if you can stick around on IRC, that would be great.

13:52:08 [markbirbeck]

Will do.

13:52:25 [manu]

I'll follow-up after the call to see how we can get this done before next Thursday.

13:52:38 [Knud]

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13:52:43 [manu]

hope the rest of the day is super productive for you :)

13:52:51 [markbirbeck]

Jeez...I hope so too. :)

13:53:21 [markbirbeck]

It's not been bad so far, but I have this magic to-do list, like one of those pots in the stories. ;)

13:53:52 [manu]

let me guess - the pot is always full? :P

13:54:03 [Benjamin]

Benjamin has joined #rdfa

13:54:24 [manu]

zakim, code?

13:54:24 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu

13:55:25 [manu]

hi Benjamin :)

13:55:42 [Benjamin]

hi how are you?

13:55:53 [manu]

good - how has this week been treating you? :)

13:55:56 [markbirbeck]

Worse...you take something out of the pot, and then it magically fills up again. :)

13:56:05 [manu]

heh

13:56:21 [manu]

Benjamin: Mark said that he put something on the wiki - RDFa API stuff - needs you to review it, give feedback and integrate it if possible.

13:56:38 [Benjamin]

Oh sure

13:56:43 [manu]

Benjamin: Could you work with Mark tomorrow on that, or some time early next week?

13:56:59 [Benjamin]

Early next week would be better

13:57:08 [Benjamin]

Since when is it in the wiki?

13:57:21 [manu]

earlier this week... don't know the url... Mark?

13:57:47 [markbirbeck]

Didn't say it was in the wiki...sorry.

13:57:53 [markbirbeck]

It's in 'wiki format'. :)

13:57:57 [manu]

woops

13:58:01 [manu]

oh - ha!

13:58:12 [Benjamin]

ok, where can I read it :)

13:58:22 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:58:30 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:58:34 [markbirbeck]

I'd like to go through it with you Benjamin.

13:58:49 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller.a]

13:59:07 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

13:59:07 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

13:59:08 [Zakim]

+Ivan

13:59:15 [tinkster]

tinkster has joined #rdfa

13:59:24 [Zakim]

+knud

13:59:32 [Knud]

zakim, mute me

13:59:32 [Zakim]

knud should now be muted

13:59:35 [Zakim]

+[MIT528]

13:59:40 [manu]

Present+ Abhijit

13:59:43 [markbirbeck]

Early next week I'll be in a caravan with the family. :) (Don't ask...)

13:59:49 [Zakim]

+tinkster

14:00:00 [markbirbeck]

So I can't count on internet access.

14:00:16 [markbirbeck]

So if we can speak before Benjamin, that would be good.

14:00:16 [Zakim]

+Benjamin

14:00:26 [markbirbeck]

Even if it's just briefly tomorrow, on IM.

14:00:39 [markbirbeck]

Anyway, I'll let you get on with the telecon.

14:00:42 [ivan]

zakim, who is here?

14:00:42 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], Ivan, knud (muted), [MIT528], tinkster, Benjamin

14:00:45 [Zakim]

On IRC I see tinkster, Benjamin, Knud, trackbot, Zakim, RRSAgent, dongmei, markbirbeck, ivan, manu

14:01:10 [ivan]

zakim, IPcaller.a is manu

14:01:10 [Zakim]

+manu; got it

14:01:44 [ivan]

zakim, IPcaller is Abhijit

14:01:44 [Zakim]

+Abhijit; got it

14:02:47 [ivan]

zakim, MIT528 is dongmei

14:02:47 [Zakim]

+dongmei; got it

14:02:52 [manu]

zakim, who is on the call

14:02:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the call', manu

14:02:54 [manu]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:02:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Abhijit, manu, Ivan, knud (muted), dongmei, tinkster, Benjamin

14:03:30 [Knud]

I'm here! :)

14:03:47 [Knud]

I'm mute, but I'll scribe

14:03:56 [ivan]

scribenick: Knud

14:04:16 [Knud]

TOPIC: Action Items

14:04:16 [manu]

Agenda for today: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Apr/0026.html

14:04:54 [Knud]

ACTION-20: Mark has written something up, Benjamin needs to review it

14:04:54 [trackbot]

ACTION-20 Work with Benjamin to revise RDFa DOM API 1.1 notes added

14:04:55 [ShaneM]

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14:05:58 [Knud]

there is a pseudo-deadline for those documents next week

14:06:33 [Knud]

there will be a vote on those documents next week

14:08:05 [Knud]

Manu: any objections to publishing first version of RDFa DOM API 1.1 as it is now?

14:08:31 [Knud]

Ivan: this will need to be answered next week

14:09:24 [Knud]

Manu: will send document with W3C spec requirements to Benjamin

14:09:35 [Benjamin]

q+

14:09:58 [manu]

ack benjamin

14:10:18 [Knud]

Benjamin: some native speaker please review api document

14:10:46 [manu]

ACTION: Manu to review RDFa DOM API document before FPWD

14:10:46 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-22 - Review RDFa DOM API document before FPWD [on Manu Sporny - due 2010-04-15].

14:10:53 [Benjamin]

thanx nanu

14:11:16 [manu]

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en

14:11:17 [Knud]

ACTION-21: review of RDFa Core 1.1 is done

14:11:17 [trackbot]

ACTION-21 Review RDFa Core 1.1 notes added

14:11:32 [manu]

trackbot, close ACTION-21

14:11:32 [trackbot]

ACTION-21 Review RDFa Core 1.1 closed

14:11:47 [Knud]

(ah, that's how it's done...)

14:11:51 [manu]

trackbot, comment ACTION-21document is annotated at: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en

14:11:51 [trackbot]

Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, comment ACTION-21document is annotated at: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

14:12:05 [manu]

trackbot, ACTION-21 comment document is annotated at: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en

14:12:05 [trackbot]

Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, ACTION-21 comment document is annotated at: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

14:12:13 [manu]

trackbot, comment ACTION-21 document is annotated at: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVqnjblvbeDwZGY2Nm4zdm5fMGduNWg2a2My&hl=en

14:12:13 [trackbot]

ACTION-21 Review RDFa Core 1.1 notes added

14:12:47 [ShaneM]

sorry!

14:13:22 [Knud]

TOPIC: Agenda Item 2, Support prefix in RDFA Profile documents

14:13:30 [manu]

http://www.doodle.com/69pimmumcwd62thr

14:14:14 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:14:22 [Knud]

9 in favour, 2 opposed (Ben Adida amd Toby Inkster)

14:15:10 [Knud]

issue: it will be hard to tell where a prefix comes from

14:15:10 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-21 - It will be hard to tell where a prefix comes from ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/21/edit .

14:15:13 [Knud]

argh

14:17:49 [manu]

PROPOSAL: Support the declaration of prefixes for CURIEs in the RDFa Profile document.

14:17:51 [Knud]

(can we remove this bogus issue I accidentally created?)

14:17:57 [ivan]

+1

14:18:05 [Knud]

+1

14:18:06 [manu]

+1

14:18:13 [Benjamin]

+1

14:18:19 [ShaneM]

+1 I guess

14:18:25 [tinkster]

I think this is a bad idea because if the profile document disappears, the CURIE looks like a URI. But I'm not going to -1, so I'll +0.

14:18:46 [manu]

RESOLUTION: Support the declaration of prefixes for CURIEs in the RDFa Profile document.

14:19:13 [ShaneM]

ACTION: ShaneM ensure prefix declarations are permitted in RDFa Profile documents

14:19:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-23 - Ensure prefix declarations are permitted in RDFa Profile documents [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-04-15].

14:19:52 [Knud]

TOPIC: Agenda Item 3, ISSUE-13, empty @typeof creates bnode

14:20:10 [Knud]

all in favour in the doodle poll

14:20:12 [ShaneM]

So, if @typeof is present and has no value or has an illegal value, a bnode is created

14:20:14 [manu]

PROPOSAL: Support an empty @typeof attribute triggering bnode creation: typeof="" creates a bnode

14:20:15 [tinkster]

(I think this is how a lot of RDFa 1.0 processors work anyway.)

14:20:36 [ivan]

+1

14:20:39 [manu]

+1

14:20:39 [Knud]

+1

14:20:42 [Benjamin]

+1

14:21:05 [tinkster]

+1

14:21:32 [manu]

RESOLUTION: Support an empty @typeof attribute triggering bnode creation: typeof="" creates a bnode

14:22:06 [manu]

PROPOSAL: Support the existence of a @typeof attribute containing no valid terms/CURIES triggering bnode creation: typeof="invalidfoo"

14:22:26 [tinkster]

+1

14:22:29 [Knud]

+1

14:22:31 [manu]

+1

14:22:33 [Benjamin]

+1

14:22:34 [ShaneM]

+1

14:22:35 [ivan]

(addition to Toby, this is also how my distiller works already...)

14:22:36 [ivan]

+1

14:22:50 [tinkster]

Both of these already work in RDF::RDFa::Parser.

14:23:35 [tinkster]

relative URIs are only for about/resource/src/href

14:23:47 [manu]

RESOLUTION: Support the existence of a @typeof attribute containing no valid terms/CURIES triggering bnode creation: typeof="invalidfoo"

14:24:17 [Knud]

TOPIC: Agenda Item 4, ISSUE-14, alternate prefix declaration mechanism

14:24:40 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to add text about @typeof to RDFa Core

14:24:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-24 - Add text about @typeof to RDFa Core [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-04-15].

14:24:45 [Knud]

four different options in doodle poll

14:24:49 [manu]

The options we are discussing are:

14:24:51 [manu]

prefix="a=http://example.org/ay# b=http://example.org/bee#"

14:24:56 [manu]

prefix="a: http://example.org/ay# b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:25:02 [manu]

prefix="a: http://example.org/ay#; b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:25:09 [manu]

prefix="a http://example.org/ay# b http://example.org/bee#"

14:25:23 [manu]

This seems to have the most support: prefix="a: http://example.org/ay# b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:25:25 [tinkster]

RDF::RDFa::Parser already supports the equals-sign syntax, though it's disabled by default. (I think PyRDFa does too.)

14:25:48 [ivan]

q+

14:25:56 [ShaneM]

q+ to express opposition as well

14:26:02 [manu]

ack ivan

14:26:12 [Knud]

URIs already contain colons, which is why some don't like colon-based option

14:26:38 [Knud]

Toby and Ivan don't like this

14:27:15 [Knud]

Ivan: equal sign option is less error-prone

14:28:03 [manu]

This is what XML Schema location uses: prefix="a http://example.org/ay# b http://example.org/bee#"

14:29:37 [Knud]

toby: this option might lead to maintenance issues when people delete declarations

14:29:38 [manu]

prefix="a: http://example.org/ay#; b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:29:59 [tinkster]

semicolons are valid parts of URIs anyway.

14:30:18 [ShaneM]

Yeah - we cant use semicolons

14:30:33 [manu]

ack shanem

14:30:33 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to express opposition as well

14:31:25 [tinkster]

people who are used to CSS will forget about the space.

14:31:36 [tinkster]

the space isn't needed in CSS.

14:32:07 [manu]

prefix="a=http://example.org/ay# b=http://example.org/bee#"

14:32:08 [ivan]

q+

14:33:13 [tinkster]

seems like a sensible way out.

14:33:17 [Knud]

ivan: this is hard to resolve, yet only a small syntax issue. Let's adopt the one with most votes for the moment.

14:33:26 [ShaneM]

Thats fine

14:33:31 [manu]

PROPOSAL: Support the colon/whitespace syntax for the prefix attribute: prefix="a: http://example.org/ay# b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:33:36 [manu]

+1

14:33:38 [ivan]

+1

14:33:40 [Knud]

+1

14:33:42 [tinkster]

+1

14:33:49 [Benjamin]

+1

14:34:13 [manu]

RESOLUTION: Support the colon/whitespace syntax for the prefix attribute: prefix="a: http://example.org/ay# b: http://example.org/bee#"

14:34:40 [Knud]

TOPIC: RDFa Core issues

14:35:35 [manu]

q+

14:35:39 [manu]

ack ivan

14:36:39 [Knud]

where does the split between RDFa Core and host languages (XHTML, ...) go?

14:37:13 [ivan]

q+

14:37:22 [ivan]

ack manu

14:37:24 [Knud]

to be independet from e.g. XHTML, we might have to move references to things like "head", etc. to the host languages

14:37:38 [Knud]

manu: but that would lead to a lot of duplication between core and host languages

14:37:56 [manu]

q+ to discuss @rel/@rev

14:38:22 [Knud]

(can someone post the link the this thread on the mailing list?)

14:39:17 [manu]

This is one of the threads: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Apr/0004.html

14:41:26 [manu]

ack ivan

14:41:41 [ShaneM]

and @content and @property

14:41:52 [manu]

ack manu

14:41:52 [Zakim]

manu, you wanted to discuss @rel/@rev

14:41:54 [tinkster]

I think @src/@href need to be in Core. Otherwise establishing subject URIs can become error-prone.

14:41:55 [Knud]

ivan: referring to attributes is more problematic than referring to attributes

14:42:11 [ivan]

-> http://www.w3.org/mid/D002012D-DB62-45A0-A37C-01060A6314D6@w3.org my last mail on that issue

14:42:16 [tinkster]

<head>/<body>/<base> I'm happy to live in XHTML+RDFa.

14:42:36 [Knud]

ivan: referring to elements is more problematic than referring to attributes (correction)

14:42:51 [ShaneM]

me too, really. but we would need to change the sequence to not talk about head and body.

14:43:35 [ShaneM]

The current document says "This specification assumes that certain elements are present in the Host Language (e.g., head). If these elements are not supported in the Host Language, then the corresponding processing rules are not relevant for that language." Does that help?

14:45:17 [tinkster]

They are stupid rules.

14:46:25 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/xhtml-rdfa/Overview-src.html#additional-rdfa-processing-rules

14:46:49 [tinkster]

The default subject is *already* the current document in RDFa 1.0.

14:47:05 [tinkster]

e.g. <html property=":foo" content="bar" />

14:47:49 [tinkster]

Or a typeof on <head>.

14:49:34 [ShaneM]

tinkster: You are correct.

14:50:20 [tinkster]

The XHTML namespace isn't the default prefix.

14:50:40 [Knud]

ivan's other issue is use of xhtml namespace as default namespace

14:50:42 [tinkster]

<http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> vs <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#>.

14:51:15 [tinkster]

The XHTML vocab is generically useful though - I've used it in Turtle.

14:51:35 [ShaneM]

I agree - I think it provides a nice base of terms that will always be available.

14:52:10 [tinkster]

Create a unified vocab, but place it at <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#> for 1.0 compatibility.

14:56:18 [manu]

q+ to end the telecon

14:57:07 [ivan]

q+

14:57:26 [Benjamin]

I would be really thankful for any input or comments

14:57:46 [manu]

ack manu

14:57:54 [Zakim]

manu, you wanted to end the telecon

14:58:08 [manu]

ack ivan

14:59:07 [dongmei]

+q

14:59:14 [dongmei]

thank you all, i've enjoyed a great experience here.

15:00:03 [Knud]

(how do I make the bot create the actual minutes?)

15:01:00 [tinkster]

bye

15:01:03 [Zakim]

-tinkster

15:01:05 [Zakim]

-dongmei

15:01:06 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:01:08 [ivan]

zakim, mute me

15:01:10 [Zakim]

-Abhijit

15:01:12 [Zakim]

-Benjamin

15:01:14 [Zakim]

Ivan should now be muted

15:01:15 [ivan]

zakim, drop me

15:01:19 [Zakim]

-knud

15:01:26 [Zakim]

Ivan is being disconnected

15:01:28 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:01:32 [Zakim]

-manu

15:01:33 [ivan]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:01:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-minutes.html ivan

15:01:34 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:01:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ivan, knud, tinkster, Benjamin, manu, Abhijit, dongmei, ShaneM

15:01:44 [Knud]

ah, thanks ivan

15:01:56 [ivan]

manu, do you take care of the minutes via the wiki?

15:02:06 [manu]

yes, Ivan - I'll do the minutes.

15:02:32 [dongmei]

dongmei has left #rdfa

15:02:48 [ivan]

great!

15:02:49 [Knud]

can you just quickly outline how the minute-making process works from this point on?

15:02:56 [Knud]

just out of curiosity

15:03:21 [ivan]

http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual is the source of all wisdom

15:03:40 [manu]

yes, specifically, Common Scribe: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/

15:03:49 [Knud]

ah, great. Thanks!

15:04:15 [ivan]

and Sandro Hawke is the real source, he is the one who hacked all this together:-)

15:18:43 [ShaneM]

how long until the minutes appear?

15:18:49 [ShaneM]

I want to check the resolutions...

15:19:24 [ivan]

depends on manu...

15:22:20 [manu]

working on the minutes right now.

15:22:38 [manu]

jeez... so demanding... :P

15:35:40 [ShaneM]

no - I hjust meant that when I click tha tlink it doesn't work.

15:58:55 [manu]

rrsagent, make logs public

15:59:04 [manu]

that's probably why you couldn't read the link, Shane.

17:03:47 [Zakim]

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17:10:27 [manu]

rrsagent, bye

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-actions.rdf :

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to review RDFa DOM API document before FPWD [1]

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-irc#T14-10-46

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ShaneM ensure prefix declarations are permitted in RDFa Profile documents [2]

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-irc#T14-19-13

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to add text about @typeof to RDFa Core [3]

17:10:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-rdfa-irc#T14-24-40

17:10:29 [manu]

trackbot, bye

17:10:29 [trackbot]

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