08:07:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
08:07:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-irc
08:07:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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08:07:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
08:07:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
08:07:35 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
08:07:35 <trackbot> Date: 07 April 2010
08:07:46 <MichaelC> zakim, code?
08:07:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MichaelC
08:08:01 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has now started
08:08:08 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
08:08:20 <Zakim> +??P1
08:09:07 <janina> Birmingham is now on the conference bridge
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08:09:44 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
08:10:37 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P1 is FtF
08:10:37 <Zakim> +FtF; got it
08:10:38 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
08:11:02 <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:11:20 <MichaelC> zakim, FtF has Mike_Smith, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon
08:11:20 <Zakim> +Mike_Smith, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon; got it
08:11:31 <MichaelC> zakim, Steve_Faulkner has entered FtF
08:11:31 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
08:11:45 <oedipus> regrets: Sally_Cain
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08:15:07 <MikeSmith> silvia, you can skype me at sideshowbarker
08:20:47 <oedipus> q+ to ask if we are going to break down the "summary issue" as we did yesterday with longdesc, starting with "attribute versus element" and competing proposals or is that too big a can of worms to open
08:21:02 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
08:21:14 <oedipus> ack me
08:21:14 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if we are going to break down the "summary issue" as we did yesterday with longdesc, starting with "attribute versus element" and competing proposals or
08:21:18 <Zakim> ... is that too big a can of worms to open
08:21:35 <Zakim> +Sean_Hayes
08:22:15 <kliehm> scribe: Martin_Kliehm
08:22:21 <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
08:24:10 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:24:15 <kliehm> topic: Media
08:24:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media
08:24:25 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka, Mike_Smith
08:24:37 <kliehm> issue 9
08:25:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
08:26:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:26:42 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
08:26:51 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
08:27:23 <kliehm> silvia: looking forward to an agreement on the issues above to move forward, doesn't need to be final.
08:27:45 <kliehm> silvia: positive signals from browser vendors
08:29:38 <kliehm> janina: we are proposing recommendations at this f2f meeting for the Thursday telcon
08:30:03 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/consensus-procedures Task Force consensus procedures
08:30:15 <silvia> ok, thanks 
08:30:25 <silvia> I've dropped out
08:30:32 <janina> Mike is calling you back
08:30:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:31:17 <silvia> anyway - don't wait for me - that particular tangent need be discussed at another time
08:32:05 <oedipus> s/ok, thanks//
08:32:13 <oedipus> s/I've dropped out//
08:32:27 <oedipus> s/Mike is caling you back//
08:32:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:33:00 <oedipus> s/Mike is caling you back//
08:33:04 <oedipus> s/Mike is calling you back//
08:33:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:33:55 <kliehm> Dick Bultermann: main concern I have is that declarative support for accessibility is lacking while scripting support is more advanced.
08:34:39 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#media-elements
08:34:49 <silvia> Just a side note: this concern is not with the "Multitrack API" but with the "Media Textassociations" document
08:35:01 <kliehm> dick: regarding multitrack most proposals suggest new elements to fix problems, that seems to be a non-sustainable solution.
08:35:33 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations#Proposal
08:35:40 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations#File_Formats
08:36:09 <kliehm> dick: the issue is not just what codecs people need, but also alternative presentation modes for people with different disabilities.
08:36:55 <kliehm> dick: There are general solutions like SMIL's content control, or DAISY that already provide a starting point that needs to be tailored for the special needs of HTML.
08:37:28 <kliehm> dick: It's been in IE 5.5 and several versions of DAISY.
08:37:50 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:38:13 <janina> q?
08:39:03 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0009.html
08:39:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/MediaSpecificElements
08:39:28 <kliehm> dick: I sent to some of you a description of the SMIL content control model.
08:40:27 <kliehm> silvia: has seen the first draft of the document mentioned by Dick. There's a concern that a single timeline is insufficient.
08:42:34 <kliehm> silvia: Also more concerns we haven't dealt with at this TF. We've done work on the declarative and JavaScript API. In the JavaScript API there's just one timetrack, still it's possible to use different languages.
08:42:43 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758
08:44:13 <kliehm> silvia: There is a single timeline and a timing model in HTML that is sufficient for synchronization.
08:44:37 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#time-ranges
08:44:56 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#location-of-the-media-resource
08:45:46 <kliehm> dick: As an example in MPEG4 there are different means to switch certain tracks on and off, but in other codecs those tracks  exist in separate files that need to be synchronized.
08:46:54 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#timers
08:47:08 <kliehm> dick: For the moment synchronization is implicit, but we need an explicit model that can be done in very little time.
08:47:19 <MikeSmith> q?
08:47:25 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:47:49 <kliehm> silvia: First topic is the media multitrack proposal.
08:48:49 <Sean> silvia we lost audio 
08:49:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
08:49:02 <richardschwerdt-1> richardschwerdt-1 has joined #html-a11y
08:49:05 <MikeSmithX> MikeSmithX has joined #html-a11y
08:49:06 <eric_carlson_> eric_carlson_ has joined #html-a11y
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08:49:35 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI#Draft_Proposal
08:49:40 <MichaelC> meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Face to Face, Day 2
08:49:40 <silvia> maybe I can share the list of topics here
08:49:46 <martin_kliehm> (lost connection)
08:49:56 <martin_kliehm> scribenick: martin_kliehm
08:50:08 <silvia> 1. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:50:19 <Stevef_> Stevef_ has joined #html-a11y
08:50:21 <silvia> 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
08:50:25 <silvia> 3. caption file format
08:50:41 <silvia> 4. more general synchronisation of media elements
08:51:28 <kliehm> Dick: several concerns, for example who is the trackmaster, video stream or text file?
08:51:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:51:49 <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
08:52:54 <kliehm> Eric Carlson: I think that granular level of control is beyond the scope of the first implementation.
08:53:09 <Sean> q+ to say TTML allows spatial control
08:53:45 <kliehm> Dick: We need a perspective for future development.
08:54:50 <kliehm> Janina: When would we get to that level of control? HTML6?
08:55:16 <oedipus> q?
08:56:30 <MikeSmith> q?
08:56:43 <kliehm> Eric: With the movement we've seen in the last few years I'd be surprised if it took as long as the transition from HTML4 -> HTML5.
08:56:54 <MichaelC> zakim, Silvia_Pfeiffer has entered FtF
08:56:54 <Zakim> +Silvia_Pfeiffer; got it
08:57:04 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/
08:57:04 <oedipus> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/ TTML 1.0
08:57:08 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
08:57:44 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/ns/ttml/
08:57:45 <silvia> q+
08:57:55 <MichaelC> ack se
08:57:55 <Zakim> Sean, you wanted to say TTML allows spatial control
08:58:29 <MichaelC> ack si
08:58:33 <kliehm> Sean asking about TTML spatial control.
08:58:58 <Sean> +1 to getting structure in the discussion
08:59:59 <kliehm> Silvia: audio and video in HTML5 is a given and as a first step we should be trying to make that accessible now.
09:00:53 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#video
09:00:56 <kliehm> Silvia: I believe what Dick suggests can be added on top, but should be addressed in a separate subgroup.
09:01:04 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#audio
09:01:42 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#media-elements
09:01:42 <Sean> q+ 
09:03:14 <kliehm> Janina: concern if the spec would be continued to be worked on in that area, Eric confirmed that work will continue. Still we need to discuss the future perspective.
09:03:24 <oedipus> AUDIO and VIDEO lack accessible markup: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758
09:03:48 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
09:04:14 <janina> q?
09:04:47 <kliehm> Silvia: Dick paints a bigger picture, we need to solve the simple thinks first. We shouldn't stop to push those ideas forward though, Dick is doing an excellent job driving it forward.
09:05:03 <kliehm> s/thinks/things/
09:05:25 <MichaelC> ack s
09:05:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
09:06:42 <kliehm> Sean: It would be nice to re-architecture the audio/video model to include accessibility from the beginning, but we wouldn't reach a result. The HTML WG would drop the suggestion in horror.
09:07:49 <kliehm> Eric: Agrees. The current state is the result of work in the last three years. It's very unlikely that the current implementation will be re-shaped in the way Dick proposes.
09:08:04 <silvia> q+
09:09:06 <janina> q?
09:09:14 <oedipus> GJR notes that bug 5758 is datestamped 2008-06-15 (2008-06-15 )
09:09:52 <kliehm> [discussion of lack of response by WG regarding video accessibility suggestions in the last two years]
09:11:12 <oedipus> aurlien levy on video lack of a11y (2007) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0136.html
09:11:19 <janina> In a moment. You're next on q
09:11:47 <kliehm> Eric: Start and end time, loops and more was shipped in WebKit but removed by request.
09:12:48 <kliehm> Dick: I will work with Silvia on the Track API if that's the focus at the moment.
09:13:28 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
09:13:38 <kliehm> Silvia asking about point of view on JavaScript API
09:14:51 <kliehm> Dick: If somebody pauses the video the timing should be clarified that the video stream is the timing master and the captions are slaves. Also when the video ends but the track is longer, they should stop, too.
09:15:48 <janina> q?
09:15:53 <janina> ack s
09:17:58 <janina> q?
09:19:57 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
09:20:11 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-a11y
09:20:21 <kliehm> [lost conncetion again]
09:20:25 <kliehm> Sean: The role is read only, you're not applying it by JavaScript.
09:20:28 <MikeSmith> q?
09:21:36 <oedipus> http://webkit.org/
09:22:44 <kliehm> Eric: The JavaScript API supplies script access to caption tracks, whether they are internal or external. Thus custom controls can access different caption tracks.
09:22:48 <oedipus> http://planet.webkit.org/
09:23:26 <oedipus> janina, i will ping Kenny Johar who said he would review the Multitrack API
09:23:50 <MikeSmith> q+ to point out that bugs should be raised for both of these proposals
09:24:39 <kliehm> Janina: Has there been a discussion to standardize API access on controls?
09:25:01 <kliehm> Eric: That is part of the existing JavaScript API.
09:25:46 <oedipus> janina, i am emailing Kenny Johar to review the Media stuff
09:25:49 <kliehm> Silvia, Eric: The default controls are hooked up to the system accessibility APIs so that they are keyboard navigable.
09:27:04 <janina> q?
09:28:09 <kliehm> Dick: Concerned that number of attributes are boolean. controls=false === controls=true is confusing. Also you cannot turn controls off.
09:28:48 <kliehm> Eric: boolean attributes are a given, changing them would never fly with the HTML WG.
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09:30:21 <kliehm> Silvia: That's been in HTML4 and previous versions, it's a fundamental concept.
09:31:04 <kliehm> [strong agreement we shouldn't try to change this]
09:31:53 <oedipus> agree with sean
09:32:05 <kliehm> Eric: The spec doesn't say anything about the look and position of the controls.
09:32:57 <kliehm> Eric: For example the placement of captions can be significant.
09:33:00 <oedipus> -> Dick Bulterman's Initial version of Synchronization issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0082.html
09:33:00 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0082.html
09:34:02 <Joshue> MK: What about the stylability of form controls via CSS etc? They should be stylable.
09:34:29 <Joshue> EC: This is an issue that we shouldn't be concerned with but we may need to escalate it elsewhere.
09:34:32 <silvia> q+
09:34:43 <janina> qq?
09:34:45 <janina> q?
09:34:49 <MikeSmith> q- later
09:34:54 <janina> ack s
09:35:25 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/thread.html#msg31
09:35:45 <silvia> 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
09:36:07 <oedipus> maciej comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0039.html
09:37:58 <kliehm> Silvia: I hear we have an basic agreement on the first proposal (Multitrack API). Dick will email a few clarifications.
09:40:17 <oedipus> ack mi
09:40:17 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to point out that bugs should be raised for both of these proposals
09:41:06 <kliehm> Mike Smith: As a first step we should submit bugs for the proposals in Bugzilla.
09:41:10 <Marco_Ranon> 5 minutes to first scheduled break
09:41:40 <oedipus> MikeSmith, would the new bugs complement or subsume bug 5758? (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758)
09:42:37 <oedipus> MikeSmith, silvia volunteered to file bugs
09:43:34 <eric_carlson> oedipus: I think the new bugs compliment 5758
09:43:51 <silvia> I'll make a reference to that bug
09:45:18 <oedipus> silvia, i talked to Kenny Johar about working on the Media Sub-Group -- his schedule should sync with yours as far as telephone time is concerned
09:45:36 <silvia> where is he located?
09:45:44 <oedipus> victoria
09:45:50 <kliehm> Janina: Perhaps we need a face-2face meeting at TPAC for media.
09:46:18 <MikeSmith> q?
09:46:23 <kliehm> Silvia, Michael Cooper said yesterday TPAC 2010 will be in Lyon, France.
09:46:53 <silvia> ah, cool!
09:48:03 <silvia> q+
09:48:45 <oedipus> ack si
09:49:51 <kliehm> Silvia: I'd like to reconfirm we can perfectly associate captions, audio transcriptions and external text with audio/video. What we can't do at the moment is that DAISY level of access.
09:50:06 <oedipus> GJR notes that DAISY is interested in ensuring that the next iteration (ZedAI and ZedNext) can be rendered in HTML5-capable browsers
09:50:41 <Sean> To be clear, there is no declarative way of doing DAISY. The JS API would allow it
09:50:46 <oedipus> GJR notes that DAISY is considering/working on a profile for use with HTML5
09:51:22 <kliehm> Janina: Accessible captions are just the beginning, internationalization might also be an issue.
09:52:24 <kliehm> Mike: The TF could as implementors if DAISY would be an option for the next version. We should have our concern on record and expect improvement.
09:52:37 <kliehm> s/as/ask/
09:54:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
09:54:26 <kliehm> Eric: Asking implementors is one way, also people who understand accessibility should phrase the requirements.
09:55:02 <oedipus> -> Accessibility Needs (Multimedia Q&A) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
09:56:27 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/att-0082/HTML5_Synchronization.html
09:56:48 <kliehm> Dick: I have more fundamental problems with the second proposal, just sent out a draft to the group. There are mutually exclusive concerns that should be addressed.
09:57:01 <Sean> Yes lets do media now while we are all available
09:58:47 <kliehm> Silvia: I could write a response to Dick's concerns.
09:59:39 <kliehm> Dick: I can trim the document down to just the basic concerns.
10:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
10:00:29 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
10:00:52 <MikeSmith> silvia, will you be back on later at all?
10:01:04 <Sean> What is the agenda after the break?
10:01:30 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
10:01:34 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04#agenda
10:01:40 <silvia> if there is more media discussion I can be back
10:01:48 <silvia> but I'd rather spend some time with our friends now
10:01:54 <MikeSmith> next is drag & drop
10:02:47 <Sean> OK. I have to go do some other stuff now.
10:02:54 <Zakim> -Sean_Hayes
10:03:22 <silvia> thanks, no need for my presence then :)
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10:19:40 <janina> Birmingham paging Oedipus
10:20:03 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
10:21:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/RoleAttribute
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10:25:03 <oedipus> TOPIC: Drag and Drop
10:25:04 <oedipus> -> drag and drop in HTML5 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#dnd
10:25:04 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#dnd
10:25:04 <oedipus> -> drag and drop events model in HTML5 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#drag-and-drop-processing-model
10:25:04 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#drag-and-drop-processing-model
10:26:09 <MichaelC> scribe: Marco_Ranon
10:27:26 <Marco_Ranon> RS: currently no guidance on DnD
10:27:40 <oedipus> -> @draggable http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-draggable-attribute
10:27:40 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-draggable-attribute
10:28:20 <Marco_Ranon> RS: several functionalities for mouse, need to make sure we have keyboard equivalents
10:29:16 <oedipus> -> ARIA drag and drop http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#attrs_dragdrop
10:29:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#attrs_dragdrop
10:29:19 <Marco_Ranon> RS: no time for DnD, maybe Gez can work on this?
10:30:35 <oedipus> HTML5 Section 7.9.1 "To make an element draggable is simple: give the element a draggable attribute, and set an event listener for dragstart that stores the data being dragged."
10:30:35 <oedipus> HTML5 Section 7.9.1 "The event handler typically needs to check that it's not a text selection that is being dragged, and then needs to store data into the DataTransfer object and set the allowed effects (copy, move, link, or some combination)."
10:30:35 <Marco_Ranon> SF: current specs is not mouse-centric
10:31:00 <Marco_Ranon> RS: need to provide cleare guidance for keyboard access
10:31:23 <Marco_Ranon> RS: s/cleare/clear
10:32:32 <oedipus> HTML5 section 7.9 "This section defines an event-based drag-and-drop mechanism. This specification does not define exactly what a drag-and-drop operation actually is."
10:33:00 <Marco_Ranon> RS: a couple of weeks to review current status, need to write specs ready text
10:33:07 <oedipus> HTML5 7.9 "On media without a pointing device, the user would probably have to explicitly indicate his intention to perform a drag-and-drop operation, stating what he wishes to drag and what he wishes to drop, respectively."
10:33:42 <Marco_Ranon> JS: will email Gez
10:34:37 <Marco_Ranon> JS: back to ALT and then longdesc
10:34:46 <oedipus> TOPIC: ALT redux
10:35:07 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
10:35:50 <oedipus> missing @src and @alt SHOULD be accorded the same priority
10:36:01 <Stevef> q+
10:36:04 <Joshue> +q
10:36:44 <oedipus> q?
10:36:46 <MikeSmith> q+
10:36:50 <oedipus> ack steve
10:36:51 <janina> ack s
10:37:42 <oedipus> q+ to say that missing @src and missing @alt should be accorded the same priority stroke level of error/conformance reporting
10:38:36 <Marco_Ranon> JS: laura's change proposal calls for error for missing ALT. my proposal is to leave it as it is, but add a note
10:39:26 <janina> q?
10:39:38 <Marco_Ranon> SF: document with no @alt shouldn't be conformant
10:39:44 <oedipus> role="presentation" should mark the only exception where @alt is not absolutely needed
10:40:32 <oedipus> ack jo
10:40:45 <janina> q?
10:41:00 <oedipus> ack mi
10:41:25 <Marco_Ranon> quick break for people to check-out
10:41:39 <oedipus> missing @src and missing @alt SHOULD be accorded the same priority stroke error/conformance error
10:42:00 <oedipus> IMG without @src is invalid and unusable
10:42:13 <oedipus> IMG without @alt is invalid and unusable
10:42:20 <Marco_Ranon> I'm for error for both @alt and @src
10:42:25 <oedipus> me too
10:43:17 <Marco_Ranon> For me the main point with @alt is to refer to WCAG documents in error messages
10:44:03 <oedipus> we are discussing ALT in relation to IMG (and perhaps FIGURE)
10:44:40 <oedipus> there is no control over the content of a <p> </p>
10:47:03 <oedipus> for a stab at a uniform approach to HTML5's media specific elements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/MediaSpecificElements
10:48:05 <oedipus> conformance is in the eye of the validator
10:49:51 <oedipus> steve, in your example the alt text for the logo should be the logo (for example, alt="W3C") and a title should be used if one wants to mark the image as a logo
10:51:13 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
10:51:34 <oedipus> janina, MikeSmith is still in the queue ahead of me
10:51:45 <Marco_Ranon> we are all back
10:51:46 <janina> Yes, g
10:52:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
10:52:13 <MichaelC> q+ to say the spec could as easily define behaviour for when src is not present, as just say it must be present; if it did that, we'd have equal treatment
10:53:12 <Marco_Ranon> MS: currently specs allow to omit @alt for IMG 
10:54:42 <Stevef> q+
10:54:44 <Marco_Ranon> MS: a warning has more chances to be accepted by the WG than error
10:55:52 <Marco_Ranon> MS: don't want to have warning for @src
10:56:08 <MikeSmith> q?
10:56:09 <Marco_Ranon> RS: a warning is appropriate
10:56:09 <oedipus> ack me
10:56:10 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that missing @src and missing @alt should be accorded the same priority stroke level of error/conformance reporting
10:56:53 <Joshue> +q
10:56:54 <MichaelC> ack me
10:56:55 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the spec could as easily define behaviour for when src is not present, as just say it must be present; if it did that, we'd have equal treatment
10:57:01 <janina> q?
10:57:02 <Marco_Ranon> GR: @alt and @src should be on the same level
10:57:20 <Marco_Ranon> MC: agree with GR
10:57:22 <Joshue> -q
10:57:34 <Joshue> +q to ask how would a missing src effect UA Heuristics?
10:57:56 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#an-introduction-to-error-handling-and-strange-cases-in-the-parser
10:58:24 <Marco_Ranon> MC: html5 wants to define error handling, it could be the same for @alt 
10:58:31 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
10:58:34 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
10:58:49 <MichaelC> s/@alt/@src/
10:59:34 <oedipus> sean expressed interest in fleshing out and exploring my initial stab at a uniform approach to HTML5's media specific elements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/MediaSpecificElements
11:00:29 <MikeSmith> q?
11:00:30 <Marco_Ranon> DB: we should do the same for VIDEO and other kind of media
11:00:36 <Marco_Ranon> DB: a warning would be OK
11:00:45 <oedipus> the difference in this case is that IMG has to be backwards-compatible - new specific media elements are a different kettle of fish
11:00:51 <Joshue> -q
11:01:01 <Joshue> +q to ask  regarding conformance checkers  -  if they currently throw up no error if no alt is present, and missing source throws up an error are we suggesting upgrading @alt to the equivalent warning/error status?
11:01:02 <janina> ack s
11:01:27 <oedipus> joshue, i am, at least
11:01:48 <Marco_Ranon> SF: people might add dummy ALT just to shut up the validator
11:02:19 <Marco_Ranon> RS: could flag a warning and then have a full series of accessibility cjhecks
11:02:33 <Marco_Ranon> s/cjhecks/checks
11:03:24 <oedipus> you can put garbage into any element and into many attributes - the argument is specious
11:03:45 <oedipus> q?
11:03:47 <oedipus> ack ri
11:04:31 <Joshue> ack me
11:04:31 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to ask  regarding conformance checkers  -  if they currently throw up no error if no alt is present, and missing source throws up an error are we suggesting
11:04:34 <Zakim> ... upgrading @alt to the equivalent warning/error status?
11:04:38 <MikeSmith> q?
11:04:46 <oedipus> NO, NO, NO!!! we are concerned with ALL developers, not just those who will use an a11y conformance checker
11:05:57 <Marco_Ranon> JOC: we would need to upgrade @alt to equivalent to @src 
11:06:22 <Joshue> Regarding the behaviour in conformance checkers.
11:06:55 <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: @alt and @src in regard to IMG must be accorded equal importance in validation/conformance
11:07:27 <Marco_Ranon> MS: changing to a warning would be the way forward to unblock the stalemate on @alt
11:08:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
11:09:47 <Marco_Ranon> JS: we agree on the change proposal but not on the behaviour of the validator
11:10:14 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
11:11:26 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
11:11:43 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:11:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
11:12:43 <oedipus> what meaning does IMG without @src have?  none - it is an error
11:12:53 <Marco_Ranon> MS: @src shouldn't be a warning
11:13:17 <MikeSmith> q?
11:17:32 <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: @alt and @src in regard to IMG must be accorded equal importance in validation/conformance
11:18:15 <chaals> [-1 but won't block consensus]
11:19:58 <oedipus> obsolete but conforming is an OXYMORON - it makes no logical sense whatsoever
11:20:37 <MikeSmith> q?
11:21:24 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
11:21:30 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/obsolete.html#warnings-for-obsolete-but-conforming-features
11:22:35 <oedipus> you can't automatically check that hyperlink text is meaningful, either
11:24:02 <oedipus> @alt required unless role="presentation" -- that should be checkable
11:24:32 <oedipus> that's a tool limitation, not something that should drive the spec
11:24:50 <oedipus> the tool should comply to the spec, not the other way around
11:25:02 <Marco_Ranon> MS: currently validator libraries don't enumerate missing attributes
11:25:47 <Marco_Ranon> 5 minutes to lunch break
11:26:50 <Marco_Ranon> MS: generating a warning and pointing to a11y guidance should be what we need to do
11:27:05 <oedipus> what about missing @src?
11:27:59 <Marco_Ranon> MS: i'm currently working on the validator to improve output
11:28:15 <oedipus> warning is a yield sign; error is a stop sign, symbollically speaking
11:29:40 <MichaelC> zakim, Charles_McCathieNevile has entered FtF
11:29:40 <Zakim> +Charles_McCathieNevile; got it
11:29:41 <Marco_Ranon> MS: we could have a 'conforming with warning' class
11:29:44 <Joshue> If there was more context aware error recovery/advise from the conformance checker then we would be closer to conformance == a11y.
11:30:18 <silvia> silvia has joined #html-a11y
11:30:28 <Marco_Ranon> JS: can we change to error to warning?
11:30:56 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
11:31:20 <Marco_Ranon> GR: still want equivalent level for @alt and @src
11:31:26 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/obsolete.html#obsolete
11:31:31 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #html-a11y
11:31:43 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/obsolete.html#warnings-for-obsolete-but-conforming-features
11:31:49 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
11:32:02 <oedipus> obsolete but conforming is an oxymoron
11:33:29 <MikeSmith> current non-normative statement in spec: For example, a validator could report some pages as "Valid HTML" and others as "Valid HTML with warnings".
11:34:49 <oedipus> how can any page be valid without warnings?  if the argument is that @alt shouldn't be an error because the content of @alt can be fudged, so, too can many other attributes and containers which produce "Valid" garbage
11:35:30 <Marco_Ranon> JS: are we OK with warning plus label such documents as valid with warning (or a better phrase)?
11:35:41 <oedipus> GJR votes for equal status for @src and @alt in regards to IMG
11:36:24 <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: @alt and @src in regard to IMG must be accorded equal importance in validation/conformance
11:37:28 <MikeSmith> .me notes Janina's citation of the phrase "progress not perfection" 
11:38:53 <richardschwerdtfe> Proposal: Modify Laura's change proposal to have the conformance checker normatively emit a warning as opposed to an error. This warning must refer to the appropriate WCAG document and section that provides remedial guidance to the author. 
11:39:23 <oedipus> no, unless @src is accorded the same treatment as @alt
11:39:50 <oedipus> either or
11:39:55 <richardschwerdtfe> +1
11:40:01 <Stevef> +1
11:40:04 <kliehm> +1
11:40:07 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
11:40:14 <eric_carlson> +1
11:40:16 <Joshue> +1
11:40:17 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: +1
11:40:17 <MichaelC> +1
11:40:18 <Marco_Ranon> +1 (although not in my ideal world)
11:40:19 <janina> +1
11:40:23 <chaals> +1
11:40:24 <MichaelC> +1 for Dick
11:40:54 <oedipus> minus 1
11:41:14 <oedipus> duke
11:41:19 <oedipus> s/duke//
11:42:40 <Marco_Ranon> RESOLUTION: Modify Laura's change proposal to have the conformance checker normatively emit a warning as opposed to an error. This warning must refer to the appropriate WCAG document and section that provides remedial guidance to the author. 
11:43:21 <oedipus> The optimist thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is.
11:44:04 <Marco_Ranon> Note: this a resolution that the majority of the people can leave with but not prefer
11:44:16 <Marco_Ranon> yes
11:44:28 <kliehm> s/live/leave/
11:44:54 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
11:44:56 <Zakim> -FtF
11:44:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has ended
11:44:58 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike_Smith, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon,
11:45:00 <Zakim> ... Steve_Faulkner, Sean_Hayes, Silvia_Pfeiffer, Charles_McCathieNevile
11:51:14 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
11:51:55 <cyns> I'm getting a message that the #2119 passcode is not valid.
11:52:37 <cyns> ok. thanks.
11:52:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
12:02:16 <Laura> Laura has joined #html-a11y
12:02:29 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has now started
12:02:36 <Zakim> +Laura
12:05:46 <Laura> WAI CG consensus document had absolutely no reference to "warnings". We discussed that point ad nausium. The WAI CG consensus document is all about what is valid period.
12:05:58 <Laura> It says and I quote,
12:06:27 <Laura> <img> is only valid when at least one of the following is true:
12:06:35 <Laura> * @alt is present (empty or non-empty) OR
12:06:36 <Laura> * @aria-labelledby is present (non-empty only) OR
12:06:36 <Laura> * the <img> is located within a <figure> that has a non-empty <figcaption> OR
12:06:36 <Laura> * @role="presentation"
12:06:42 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
12:06:52 <Laura> If the task force rejects the WAI CG consensus recommmendation, we
12:06:52 <Laura> should do back to WAI CG and have further deliberations with them.
12:07:06 <Laura> If the task force rejects the WAI CG consensus recommmendation, we
12:07:06 <Laura> should go back to WAI CG and have further deliberations with them.
12:08:09 <Laura> good idea. how long is the break?
12:08:47 <Laura> okay
12:09:57 <Laura> The change proposal now says exactly what WAI CG recommended: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126#With_Suggested_Text
12:10:26 <Laura> okay thanks
12:10:32 <Zakim> -Laura
12:10:33 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has ended
12:10:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Laura
12:19:39 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has now started
12:19:46 <Zakim> +Laura
12:19:56 <Laura> RESOLUTION: Adopt Laura's change proposal in full. It is the same as WAI CG
12:20:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:20:17 <Laura> +1
12:20:24 <cyns> Zakim IP caller is me
12:20:28 <Zakim> -Laura
12:20:49 <cyns> Zakim, IPcaller is me
12:20:49 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
12:37:39 <oedipus> plus 1 (but i think laura is going to have to repropose it when we resume)
12:40:32 <Zakim> +Laura
12:46:59 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
12:48:03 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
12:48:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see cyns, Laura
12:48:19 <Laura> yes
12:48:58 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
12:48:59 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04#agenda
12:49:35 <Zakim> +??P9
12:49:48 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P9 is FtF
12:49:48 <Zakim> +FtF; got it
12:49:58 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
12:49:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see cyns, Laura, Gregory_Rosmaita, FtF
12:50:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, Laura, cyns, Joshue, oedipus, silvia, kliehm, janina, Marco_Ranon, eric_carlson, MikeSmith, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, trackbot
12:50:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
12:51:35 <oedipus> "Modify Laura's change proposal to have the conformance checker normatively emit a warning as opposed to an error. This warning must refer to the appropriate WCAG document and section that provides remedial guidance to the author."
12:51:37 <Laura> WAI CG consensus document had absolutely no reference to "warnings". We discussed that point ad nausium. The WAI CG consensus document is all about what is valid period.
12:51:52 <MichaelC> s/RESOLUTION: Adopt Laura's change proposal in full. It is the same as WAI CG//
12:51:55 <oedipus> Note: this a resolution that the majority of the people can leave with but not prefer
12:52:08 <Laura> It says and I quote,
12:52:15 <Laura> <img> is only valid when at least one of the following is true:
12:52:15 <Laura> * @alt is present (empty or non-empty) OR
12:52:15 <Laura> * @aria-labelledby is present (non-empty only) OR
12:52:15 <Laura> * the <img> is located within a <figure> that has a non-empty <figcaption> OR
12:52:16 <Laura> * @role="presentation"
12:52:26 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
12:52:30 <Laura> If the task force rejects the WAI CG consensus recommmendation, we
12:52:30 <Laura> should go back to WAI CG and have further deliberations with them.
12:52:48 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
12:53:58 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
12:54:35 <MichaelC> zakim, FtF has Mike_Smith, Charles_McCathieNevile, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner, Marco_Ranon
12:54:35 <Zakim> +Mike_Smith, Charles_McCathieNevile, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner, Marco_Ranon;
12:54:39 <Zakim> ... got it
12:54:42 <oedipus> cyns, http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03
12:56:00 <oedipus> consensus with caveat
12:56:16 <oedipus> "Note: this a resolution that the majority of the people can leave with but not prefer" from minutes
12:57:27 <oedipus> [LC and CS express concern over ALT agreement to be taken to TF in general]
12:58:02 <oedipus> JS: this meeting makes recommendations to TF; TF has to approve before moved to HTML WG
12:58:12 <oedipus> MC: noted in minutes that there were reservations
12:58:23 <oedipus> CS: oppose statement that this meeting agrees with this
12:58:35 <oedipus> MC: take to wider TF without rehashing same discussion?
12:58:44 <oedipus> JS: don't know if we can part of my concern this morning
12:58:57 <oedipus> MC: hear what you are saying - there will be opportunity to discuss
12:59:07 <oedipus> CS: don't want to block progress, but this worries me a lot
12:59:30 <oedipus> JS: a lot of concern; my mind came down to progress, not perfection -- quantify remaining inequality
12:59:38 <oedipus> CS: can live with it if give @src equal treatment
12:59:48 <oedipus> JS: MS, can we talk about this for a minute
12:59:50 <oedipus> MS: yes
13:00:01 <oedipus> JS: Dick, slippery slope argument
13:00:20 <oedipus> i/scribenick: oedipus/LC and CS
13:00:42 <oedipus> JS: why missing @alt and @src equality not practical
13:00:56 <oedipus> DB : at very abstract level, i might agree, but at practical level don't 
13:01:02 <oedipus> DB: have fundamental concerns
13:01:47 <oedipus> DB: concerns discussion too linked to IMG - conversation needs to be on higher ground - spending a lot of time on error or warning is moot because at semantic level where need to make diff not going to help at all
13:01:55 <oedipus> DB: example of bad programming
13:02:23 <oedipus> DB: useless info -- effort should go into helping how to help people do things better, organize business case
13:02:32 <oedipus> LC: i've seen it work; i use it in my work
13:02:43 <oedipus> LC: to students a warning or an error makes a BIG difference
13:02:53 <oedipus> CS: makes big difference to programmers as well
13:03:02 <oedipus> DB: warning already sends signal
13:03:06 <oedipus> LC: can turn off warnings
13:03:20 <cyns> q+
13:03:53 <oedipus> DB: agree on abstract level - when designed SMIL required @alt otherwise XML error and doc wouldn't render - result was people ignoring what is moral enforcement issue
13:04:05 <oedipus> DB: laudable goal, but for practical purpose, no inforcement
13:04:48 <oedipus> DB: equating @alt to @src is a WHOLE different aqrgument, and don't think much of a leg for that argument to stand on - @alt triggering category-A warning is not the way to go
13:04:56 <oedipus> MC: don't know WAI CG feeling
13:05:04 <oedipus> LC: had consensus a year ago
13:05:16 <oedipus> JS: prior to the TF PF had a Caucus on HTML
13:05:21 <oedipus> LC: worked for it on months
13:05:44 <oedipus> DB: would rather put eneregy into ensuring @alt on all media -- would be bigger win than matter of principle
13:06:18 <oedipus> CS: not matter of principle, but practicallity -- have had multiple cases where statement "is not valid HTML" ends argument - 
13:06:36 <oedipus> DB: understand, but whole different issue than saying @alt and @src should be treated equally
13:06:58 <oedipus> CS: if no @src have broken image, if don't have @alt have broken image
13:07:02 <oedipus> DB: not always true
13:07:07 <Joshue> There are implications as this issues crosses other domains, not just IMG.
13:07:12 <MikeSmith> a?
13:07:14 <MikeSmith> q*
13:07:16 <MikeSmith> q?
13:07:26 <oedipus> DB: just because an element is schenduled, there can be side effects to document if no @src - not with HTML5 unfortunately
13:07:50 <oedipus> CS: prefer both errors; could live with warning if @src was warning as well; more accurate to say is an error
13:07:51 <Laura> +1 cyns
13:08:04 <oedipus> JS: what else is warning and not error?
13:08:15 <oedipus> CS: things that are equivalent - other attributes if missing tag are broken
13:08:25 <oedipus> if don't provide HREF for a link that is an error
13:09:11 <oedipus> MS: captioning example is a judgement call - grey area in which some reasonable people might take position that this is case that could be classed as judgement call
13:09:15 <oedipus> CS: please explain
13:09:34 <oedipus> CS: captions aren't judgement call, but whether captions are available cannot be determined by markup validation
13:09:42 <richardschwerdtfe> mike who?
13:10:11 <oedipus> MS: strongly advise against going to HTML WG with proposal to make @src a warning is practiaclly speaking effect will be to further polemicize discussion
13:10:13 <oedipus> q+
13:10:29 <oedipus> CS: that's fair -- but then should not be saying @alt is a warning
13:10:34 <oedipus> MS: 2 separate things
13:10:45 <oedipus> CS: can live with it if treated same, prefer if both errors
13:10:50 <oedipus> plus 1 to CS
13:10:53 <oedipus> ack cy
13:11:00 <oedipus> ack oe
13:11:30 <oedipus> GJR wanted to say that the request is that they be treated equally, whether warning or error, with preference for error
13:11:36 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
13:11:42 <oedipus> LC: read minutes and still can't understand decision
13:11:51 <oedipus> MC: trying to get out of deadlock - a lot on agenda
13:11:53 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
13:12:14 <oedipus> GJR moves to move on to next agendum
13:12:56 <oedipus> CMN: this is point of contention - some in a11y community can live with this, some strongly object -- all 14 of us isn't a representative group -- perhaps time to throw proposal up on the wall 
13:13:18 <oedipus> CMN: in end, only request to change HTML5 document, not a final decision of the HTML WG
13:13:29 <oedipus> [MC and CMN discuss process]
13:13:45 <oedipus> CMN: everyone would like it to be an error, many can live with it if warning
13:14:03 <oedipus> MC: seems that whatever we send forward there will be objections, and we will log them as we move forward
13:14:19 <oedipus> MS: once goes to wider HTML WG will likely be formal objections to what the TF suggests
13:14:37 <oedipus> MC: created TF so could get general consensus on issues and take them to HTML WG
13:15:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
13:15:20 <oedipus> JS: what is the bottom line that PFWG can accept
13:15:34 <oedipus> CS: possible way forward is to take this back to WAI CG as Laura suggested
13:15:59 <oedipus> JS: can re-constitute that -- not opposed to that -- said this morning need discussion inside of WAI and not just PF
13:16:23 <oedipus> CS: would like to get wider position for WAI
13:17:08 <oedipus> MC: quantifying equality 
13:17:38 <oedipus> MC: did our best to come up with something acceptable for WG and accepted a level of inequality and WG should know that
13:17:48 <oedipus> s/equality/inequality
13:17:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
13:18:05 <chaals> [Actually, I note that I actually consider there is some merit in the case that a warning is *better* for its effect in not promoting dummy alt text. But then, I figure a warning is another flavour of error, too]
13:18:07 <oedipus> TOPIC: Longdesc redux
13:19:05 <Joshue> Scribe: Joshue
13:19:37 <Joshue> Chaals: Well, are we going to fight the HTML group for longdesc?
13:20:02 <Joshue> Chaals: We are not going to change ARIA 1.0, so we could go to HTML and say give us longdesc or not.
13:20:05 <MikeSmith> q?
13:20:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention
13:20:10 <cyns> q+
13:20:22 <MikeSmith> ack cyns 
13:20:28 <Joshue> Chaals: We can say that we want @longdesc reinstated to complete issue 30, or drop it etc.
13:20:51 <chaals> s/etc/or say we have no consensus/
13:20:53 <chaals> q+
13:20:54 <Joshue> CS: Should we discuss this in isolation or go through our other items and rank them.
13:21:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
13:21:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
13:21:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
13:21:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention
13:21:07 <Joshue> CS: I will fight for @alt but not this.
13:21:28 <Joshue> CS: We can't consider this item in isolation.
13:21:57 <MikeSmith> q?
13:22:00 <MikeSmith> ack chaals 
13:22:04 <Joshue> JS: How much work is left on this, and it is not contraversial and we get a resolution etc are we done?
13:22:20 <Joshue> CS: There could be flamewars etc.
13:22:46 <Joshue> Chaals: We could decide to go down that road, it may have less overhead.
13:22:52 <Joshue> <general agreement>
13:23:04 <Joshue> Chaals: This is about whether we want it in the spec.
13:23:40 <Joshue> CS: Well, if we don't do this on the list etc but arguing about it is not effective.
13:23:50 <Joshue> CS: We can't just throw it over and not discuss it.
13:24:01 <Joshue> JS: Yes, but we cannot control what individuals will do.
13:24:09 <Joshue> JS: We can control what the group will do.
13:24:26 <Joshue> CS: I mean, five minutes spent on this is five minutes too long.
13:24:38 <Joshue> Chaals: I have spend very little time on this.
13:25:31 <Joshue> Chaals: I won't give much time to this in the future, I can accept the conforming with a warning idea (Maciej) and explain/clarigy on list.
13:25:39 <Joshue> CS: You also have <canvas> etc.
13:25:44 <Joshue> Chaals: Yup
13:26:07 <MikeSmith> q?
13:26:07 <Joshue> <general joviality>
13:26:28 <Joshue> CS: Complete the <canvas> image map, that is your priority.
13:26:36 <Joshue> JS: We don't disagree.
13:27:08 <Joshue> JS: The other option is that we say nothing.
13:27:22 <Joshue> CS: I am fine saying that we accept Maciejs proposal.
13:27:36 <Joshue> JS: If we are ok with it, then we don't have to say anything.
13:27:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
13:28:12 <Joshue> CS: I don't think we should open up to discuss this on the list.
13:28:27 <Joshue> JS: The point is that these issues are hashed out by the group.
13:28:34 <chaals> s/discuss this/discuss this much/
13:28:46 <oedipus> obsolete but conforming is a term that makes orwell spin at warp speed in his grave
13:28:57 <Joshue> s/CS: I don't think we should open up to discuss this on the list./ 
13:29:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
13:29:39 <Joshue> CS: I am concerned that there is other stuff that needs to be done.
13:30:04 <oedipus> i/consensus with caveat/Scribenick: oedipus/
13:30:04 <Joshue> JS: We should just talk about the issues and make out recommendations etc
13:30:50 <Joshue> JS: We have been discussing this, prioritisation/management etc.
13:31:03 <Joshue> JS: We do need to check out things and move on.
13:31:28 <oedipus> s/CS: I don't think we should open up to discuss this on the list.//
13:31:33 <Joshue> CS: If we can resolve @longdesc without an overlong discussion then fine.
13:32:03 <Joshue> RS: You have to approach these things appropriately.
13:32:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
13:32:54 <Joshue> Yes, +1 to Cyns as we went around the houses ad nauseum with @summary
13:33:34 <Joshue> RS: We need to just agree a way forward etc and let the process do its thing.
13:34:03 <Joshue> MS: So what action does the TF need to decide today?
13:34:15 <MikeSmith> q?
13:34:44 <cyns> Just to make my point clear, we need to message that we will spend 'x' hours on this and no more.  We'll submit the proposal and follow the process.  If this becomes controversial, we will not get back to the item for some time, as we need to work on other issues more urgently.
13:34:46 <oedipus> preview of longdesc flame wars: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention
13:35:03 <Joshue> RS: I am not a big fan of @longdesc (for reasons already stated). We don't have this functionality in ARIA today, and until we do we need a bridge in the meantime, so we need a form in @longdesc until we have an ARIA 2 equivalent.
13:35:09 <Joshue> JS: Is there an issue?
13:35:46 <Joshue> RS: We didn't agree that we want to deprecate @longdesc?
13:35:57 <Joshue> MS: We did but it wasn't explicitly ARIA.
13:36:07 <Joshue> GJR: We did say in 2007 that we prefer native solutions.
13:36:20 <Joshue> JS: Lets test, do we have concensus?
13:36:25 <oedipus> are we talking about: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
13:36:31 <oedipus> or http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
13:36:35 <Joshue> RS: Was the proposal going to state that it was deprecated?
13:36:48 <Joshue> Chaals: <gives an overview of Maciejs proposal>
13:36:59 <oedipus> q+ to ask which proposal we are currently discussing
13:37:28 <Stevef> emails to public html about @summary 2700 approx , emails to public html about longdesc 1000 approx
13:37:43 <oedipus> ack me
13:37:43 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask which proposal we are currently discussing
13:37:53 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
13:38:04 <Joshue> JS: Lets test concensus on Maciejs proposal.
13:38:10 <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning Maciej's "Longdesc Conforming With Warning" proposal
13:38:11 <Joshue> JS: Any objection?
13:38:46 <cyns> this looks good to me
13:38:52 <oedipus> maciej: "Most of the time, when an author chooses to use longdesc, it would be valuable to encourage her to consider aria-describedby instead. It would be a positive benefit if the validator could do that encouragement. However, it would be unfortunate if in the process we harmed the few who were validly relying on longdesc and made good use of it."
13:38:52 <oedipus> maciej: "We can strike a balance by making longdesc conforming, but requiring it to trigger a validator warning. That way, sites that use it won't have to be changed right away. But authors using it will be warned of the common mistakes in using longdesc, and encouraged to use the superior aria-describeby mechanism."
13:39:00 <Laura> I have to go. Will try to get call back later.
13:39:08 <Zakim> -Laura
13:39:48 <Joshue> CS: Accepting the proposal is fine with me.
13:39:52 <Laura> Thank you, Gregory. Bye.
13:39:54 <Joshue> MS: Any objections?
13:40:01 <oedipus> lukewarm objection
13:40:19 <oedipus> GJR prefers chaals' over maciej
13:40:23 <Joshue> GJR: I would prefer Chaals
13:40:26 <Joshue> MC: Me 2
13:40:52 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
13:41:47 <Joshue> Chaals: Don't fire the warning etc
13:41:54 <Joshue> RS: I am happier with this.
13:42:05 <Joshue> CS: I dont want to spend time supporting it.
13:42:12 <oedipus> chaals: "This has been a controversial topic. It is clear that longdesc is relevant only to a fraction of images on the Web, and that it is only provided in a few of the cases where it is actually relevant. It is also clearly subject to bogus values to a large extent (perhaps the majority of the time). And its use is relatively limited, even by those who might be expected to appreciate it."
13:42:12 <oedipus> chaals: "However, it has been implemented multiple times successfully. The fact that there is bad data associated might account for low overall usage, but has relatively little impact on implementations, which can readily choose to simply ignore values which are not URIs, or even to present the value to the user, and relatively little impact on the user, who can still benefit from a *good* usage."
13:42:41 <Joshue> MS: There will be arguments and we will have to choose to respond.
13:43:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
13:43:35 <oedipus> q?
13:44:19 <Joshue> CS: A part of my objection on alt is that there are many other minor warnings that I don't consider @alt a part of.
13:44:49 <richardschwerdtfe> da da da da
13:45:29 <chaals> Proposed Resolution: This group recommends that ISSUE-30 be resolved by adopting the Change proposal to restore longdesc. Rather than waste a lot of time in discussion, the group is prepared to accept the alternative proposal to make longdesc produce a warning (which implies agreeing on a reasonable warning)
13:46:13 <chaals> s/waste/spend/
13:46:58 <richardschwerdtfe> ya ya'
13:47:08 <cyns> Proposed resolution:  While the group prefers the proposal that restores longdesc, we are prepared to accept the alternative proposal to produce a warning (assuming we can agree to warning text)
13:47:10 <chaals> [the resolution doesn't change any of yesterday's agreed points, which should be reflected in the change proposal]
13:47:43 <cyns> While the group prefers the proposal that restores longdesc, we are prepared to accept the alternative proposal to produce a warning (assuming we can agree to warning text)
13:48:49 <chaals> Proposed RESOLUTION: While the group prefers the proposal that restores longdesc without warning we are prepared to accept the alternative proposal to produce a warning (assuming we can agree to warning text)
13:49:04 <cyns> and add links to the 2 proposals
13:49:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
13:49:24 <oedipus> or http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
13:49:53 <Joshue> <discussion and fine tuning>
13:50:22 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc#This_implies_the_following_changes_to_the_spec:
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13:54:13 <chaals-> chaals- has joined #html-a11y
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13:54:35 <MikeSmithX> alternate PIN: 583503
13:54:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
13:55:04 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #html-a11y
13:55:27 <chaals-> RESOLUTION: While the group prefers the proposal that restores longdesc without warning we are prepared to accept the alternative proposal to produce a warning (assuming we can agree to warning text)
13:56:18 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
13:56:27 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
14:09:19 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
14:14:13 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
14:14:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see cyns, FtF
14:14:14 <Zakim> FtF has Mike_Smith, Charles_McCathieNevile, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner,
14:14:19 <Zakim> ... Marco_Ranon
14:14:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, Joshue, MichaelC, oedipus, eric_carlson, chaals-, MikeSmithX, richardschwerdtfe, silvia, kliehm, Marco_Ranon, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
14:18:10 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:18:11 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
14:20:16 <chaals> Scribe: Chaals
14:20:38 <MikeSmith> Topic: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives
14:20:45 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
14:20:51 <Stevef> change proposal split out and modify parts of Section 4.8.2.1 the img element http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209
14:20:57 <chaals> MS: Document that SteveF has been working on for a while.
14:20:58 <MikeSmith> q?
14:21:29 <chaals> SF: To do with proposals about what to do with alternative text - relates to the current HTML5 draft
14:21:31 <Stevef> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#a-link-or-button-containing-nothing-but-the-image
14:21:45 <MikeSmith> abstract: "This document contains author conformance requirements for use of the alt attribute in HTML5 and best practice guidance for authors of HTML documents on providing text alternatives for images.
14:21:45 <MikeSmith> abstract: "This document contains author conformance requirements for use of the alt attribute in HTML5 and best practice guidance for authors of HTML documents on providing text alternatives for images"
14:21:59 <chaals> ... There are a whole bunch of examples about how to provide an appropriate alt value.
14:22:32 <chaals> ... a bunch of people have tried to get changes to the spec, but the cost of getting changes made was too high.
14:23:02 <chaals> ... there was also an idea that we should just move the author conformance stuff out of the main doc. I could live with it in, but I think it is better out on its own as guidance for developers.
14:23:31 <chaals> ... There was still a lot that people disagreed with in this section of the spec.
14:24:07 <cyns> q+ to say that I strongly agree with the idea of moving this text out fo the spec.  Will this be submitted to WCAG as HTML5 techniques?
14:24:34 <chaals> ... I think we should be giving people guidance - but we have to recognise that "Best Practise" isn't completely agreed. E.g. should a company logo have a text alternative that includes the word "logo"?
14:24:56 <oedipus> indicate a logo either through @title or @role (role="logo")
14:25:30 <chaals> ... I don't think it should, but nor should a text alternative that does be non-conforming.
14:25:35 <oedipus> <img alt="W3C" title="W3C logo" role="logo" src="w3c.png">
14:25:40 <MikeSmith> q?
14:25:44 <chaals> ... Tried to cover all the use cases in the current draft.
14:26:36 <chaals> ... Also trying to provide information about how to associate text alternatives.
14:26:49 <chaals> ... And trying to make it reasonably reader-friendly.
14:27:03 <Sean> Sean has joined #html-a11y
14:27:28 <chaals> ... Each example discusses benefits and drawbacks, with reference to what actually works today.
14:28:13 <MikeSmith> ack cyns 
14:28:13 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that I strongly agree with the idea of moving this text out fo the spec.  Will this be submitted to WCAG as HTML5 techniques?
14:28:59 <chaals> CS: I like the document. Strongly agree with moving it out of the main spec. Are you planning to submit this to WCAG as HTML5 techniques?
14:30:02 <chaals> SF: Yes. The document this came out of originally was submitted already a year ago, but they haven't reappeared yet. So I don't think that's the high priority - would rather complete the document first, and ask for it to be published as an HTML WG document.
14:30:21 <chaals> CS: Agree that getting this done first makes sense. Think it is odd that this lives in HTML not WCAG.
14:30:34 <chaals> SF: Likely to be easier to get support from HTML.
14:30:47 <chaals> JS: But risks scattering advice from different domains.
14:31:03 <chaals> SF: About providing text alternatives in general - not just accessibility.
14:31:35 <chaals> RS: Where would you go to find how to meet accessibility requirements? HTML or WCAG?
14:31:37 <MikeSmith> q?
14:31:56 <chaals> MC: There is no reason W3C can't provide the resources that encompass the various use cases.
14:31:58 <chaals> q+
14:32:01 <MikeSmith> q+
14:32:12 <chaals> RS: Will this be in WCAG format?
14:32:25 <chaals> SF: Happy to provide each case as a technique...
14:32:38 <chaals> RS: Don't want you to write it twice in two different formats
14:32:43 <oedipus> <p><img src="shalott.jpeg" alt=""></p> should be <p><img src="shalott.jpeg" alt="" role="presentation"></p>
14:32:52 <chaals> MC: WCAG techniques are stored in a special XML format.
14:32:52 <MikeSmith> ack chaals 
14:33:14 <Joshue> Chaals: Submit them all as techniques.
14:33:25 <Joshue> Chaals: Its good to publish these as HTML.
14:33:30 <oedipus> CMN: submit them all as individual techs; good to publish as part of HTML; good to have wcag group review them; submit each tech to wcag
14:33:50 <oedipus> RS: look at WCAG first
14:34:06 <oedipus> CMN: if interested in writing HTML docs, look in HTML doc suite
14:34:16 <oedipus> SF: advantage of having directly in the spec
14:34:25 <chaals> EC/CMN: It's good to have stuff in HTML so people look at it, before pushing them to go to look at WCAG.
14:34:26 <MichaelC> q+ to say what gets published where is something the WAI CG will want to discuss
14:34:47 <MikeSmith> q- later
14:34:57 <chaals> SF: Ian claims people won't follow links in order to learn more
14:35:15 <chaals> [CMN thinks that is true, but mostly because they will never read the HTML5 spec in the first place]
14:35:34 <oedipus> [plus 1 to CMN's rumination]
14:35:37 <chaals> MK: There is the H:TML document which provides techniques for authors
14:36:21 <chaals> MS: It's not really authoring techniques, it's a reference
14:36:21 <chaals> SF: Lachy was working on an authoring guidance document, but no progress.
14:36:21 <chaals> MK: Such guidance would belong in that document, but not in the spec.
14:36:36 <chaals> MS: I don't think a functional specification for implementors should also include how-to information for authors.
14:36:46 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
14:37:23 <oedipus> -> HTML Authoring Techs last updated 23 March 2009 http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
14:37:24 <chaals> ... There is a sweet spot about how much guidance to provide, and the HTML 5 spec goes beyond a reasonable expectation of what should be there.
14:37:51 <MikeSmith> q?
14:37:55 <kliehm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
14:37:56 <chaals> ... It is not the best place to put the information. And if the spec says one thing and others say different things elsewhere we get problems to resolve.
14:38:19 <chaals> RS: We didn't want to have the guidance in the same spec as the language in ARIA. I am all for taking it out of the HTML5 spec.
14:38:30 <MichaelC> ack me
14:38:30 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say what gets published where is something the WAI CG will want to discuss
14:38:35 <chaals> MS: I think it makes sense for SteveF to maintain this in the HTML5 area.
14:38:37 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith 
14:39:16 <chaals> MC: Think WAI-CG will have an interest in where these things go. I don't see why they can't be a co-publication, but I don't think we should get stuck on where it should be.
14:39:16 <richardschwerdtfe> prosody mike :-)
14:39:17 <cyns> q+ to say if it's going to be a big issue to move it to WCAG entirely, it's ok to maintain this doc, as long as these techniques eventually find their way into WCAG quick ref
14:39:55 <chaals> MS: Sam Ruby in particular has been encouraging people to step up and edit stuff. Providing this document will facilitate showing that we are serious about doing that.
14:40:26 <chaals> ... and hopefully it will help encourage others to write these kinds of documents too.
14:40:28 <MikeSmith> q?
14:40:32 <chaals> ack cyns
14:40:32 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say if it's going to be a big issue to move it to WCAG entirely, it's ok to maintain this doc, as long as these techniques eventually find their way into WCAG
14:40:33 <MikeSmith> ack cyns 
14:40:38 <Zakim> ... quick ref
14:41:04 <chaals> CS: Think that so long as this stuff is available from both HTML and WCAG I am  fine with it.
14:41:14 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/#conformance
14:42:09 <chaals> SF: I added conformance requirements, so that this document can be normative. But I would prefer not to have them, and that the spec got cleaned up, including removing problematic conformance requirements from the spec.
14:42:33 <chaals> ... Ian has submitted bugs on this document, which has helped to clarify and resolve stuff.
14:42:50 <oedipus> steveF, nice job on http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/#captcha
14:43:30 <chaals> MS: Summary - people think this is useful, there is no apparent objection to continuing it where it is for now.
14:43:50 <chaals> SF: It is a document for people to look at. Development is based on consensus.
14:44:35 <chaals> MS: This and other HTML docs are all in the group's bug tracking system
14:44:41 <chaals> SF: Feedback welcome...
14:45:22 <chaals> ACTION: Steve to post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments
14:45:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-04-14].
14:45:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
14:47:58 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04#agenda
14:47:59 <chaals> [Rich, Steve leave the meeting]
14:49:03 <chaals> Topic: Review new bugs
14:50:52 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0072.html
14:51:08 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0072.html "Removal of other semantic elements"
14:51:33 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0189.html
14:51:54 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0189.html new semantic elements/attributes) - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals
14:52:21 <MikeSmith> ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91, ISSUE-93, ISSUE-95, ISSUE-96, ISSSUE-97
14:53:05 <chaals> MC: Wasn't there a proposal to submit a no-change proposal?
14:53:12 <chaals> EC: Someone has volunteered to do that
14:53:22 <MikeSmith> q?
14:53:23 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-a11y
14:53:24 <chaals> MC: Don't see where our interest is here.
14:53:47 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-figure-element
14:53:53 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-figcaption-element
14:54:00 <chaals> MS: I don't think figure in the spec has any particular browser behaviour. It's a landmark that is useful.
14:54:04 <chaals> q+
14:54:34 <chaals> ... there was a lot of argument about the content model. Shelley said it should be just images, but people suggested that almost anything could be a figure.
14:54:50 <chaals> ... People want the language to be descriptive not prescriptive.
14:55:16 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-aside-element
14:55:36 <chaals> MS: Not sure there is browser behaviour associated - maybe on certain types of devices but UA isn't expected to do anything with it.
14:55:47 <oedipus> aside def: "The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of content that is tangentially related to the content around the aside element, and which could be considered separate from that content. Such sections are often represented as sidebars in printed typography."
14:55:47 <oedipus> aside def: "The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other content that is considered separate from the main content of the page."
14:55:49 <chaals> ... but details has specific behaviour associated.
14:56:20 <cyns> q+ to say that details makes a control for a behavior that is frequently done in script
14:56:32 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/interactive-elements.html#the-details-element
14:56:55 <chaals> ... progress and meter have behaviour associated too.
14:57:12 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-progress-element-0
14:57:17 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-meter-element-0
14:57:26 <chaals> MC: Shelley wants to remove figure because it is confusing
14:57:28 <chaals> q?
14:57:38 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removefigure Remove figure proposal
14:57:46 <MikeSmith> q?
14:57:50 <MikeSmith> ack cyns 
14:57:50 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that details makes a control for a behavior that is frequently done in script
14:58:02 <oedipus> aside is WAY to vague a catch-all
14:58:10 <chaals> CS: Agree figure and nav have different behaviour. In general I am in favour of more semantically rich tags.
14:58:20 <chaals> ... details, progress, meter are UI controls.
14:58:54 <chaals> ... what details does is frequently done (badly and inaccessibly) in script. Having native elements for these is, IMHO, a huge win.
14:59:08 <chaals> JS: And specifically useful for accessibility
14:59:22 <MikeSmith> ack chaals 
14:59:33 <chaals> CS: Yes, because authors often roll their own without getting teh accessibility right, and it is expensive.
15:00:00 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-figcaption-element
15:00:39 <cyns> q+ to say that i expect the landmark elements will eventually have browser behavior, particularly on small-screen devices
15:00:49 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:00:53 <Zakim> +??P6
15:01:07 <richardschwerdt-1> richardschwerdt-1 has joined #html-a11y
15:01:12 <Sean> +??P6 is Sean
15:01:30 <chaals> CMN: Figure associates stuff. In general, semantic ellements that have no behaviour aren't used well (HTML is full of examples) but more semantic elements that do have behaviour are useful
15:01:56 <oedipus> ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91, ISSUE-93, ISSUE-95, ISSUE-96, ISSSUE-97
15:02:31 <chaals> Proposed RESOLUTION: The TF opposes the change proposals to remove the elements listed above.
15:03:12 <chaals> MS: Please spend the time now to read the proposal if you haven't done so.
15:03:25 <chaals> ... (before we resolve anything)
15:04:21 <oedipus> based upon the currently available information...
15:05:06 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removefigure
15:05:06 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeaside
15:05:06 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removedetails
15:05:06 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removehidden
15:05:06 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeprogress
15:05:07 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removemeter
15:05:20 <chaals> s/listed above/listed below/
15:06:50 <oedipus> recurring theme "The details element, and other like it, such as progress, are the wrong direction for the W3C to take, and for the HTML WG to pursue. WAI-ARIA is to accessiblity, as behavior is to JavaScript, as CSS is to style, as RDFa/Microformats/Microdata is to semantics, as HTML is to page structure"
15:08:03 <chaals> CS: The thrust is that figure and aside are typesetting conventions not used in the web. I disagree - browsers on small screens can use these to linearise helpfully, and think that is valuable.
15:09:09 <Sean> q+ to say if we want the figure to be equivalent to aria-labelledby we would need figcaption to be available outside <figure>
15:09:10 <chaals> MS: Think the proposals for aside and figure are similar. I think the native semantics for these are better than annotation+style+ARIA
15:09:17 <oedipus> plus 1
15:09:55 <chaals> CS: Magnifiers have a valid use case for changing layout based on the semantics.
15:10:10 <chaals> MS: Shelley claims details is trivial to do in Javascript.
15:10:15 <chaals> CS: It isn't trivial
15:10:47 <chaals> MS: Indeed. A native implementation will be much better than a huge collection of different scripts that sort of do it (or even do it reasonably well)
15:11:24 <chaals> CS: There are things without elements, like accordions - I'd like to see elements for those too, rather than removing this one.
15:11:54 <chaals> ... from an interaction design perspective she might have a point that these are similar.
15:12:29 <chaals> CS: Not so strong on keeping the hidden attribute
15:12:59 <oedipus> sean has comment re: figure and figcaption
15:13:14 <oedipus> q?
15:13:18 <oedipus> ack cyns
15:13:18 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that i expect the landmark elements will eventually have browser behavior, particularly on small-screen devices
15:13:56 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
15:13:58 <MikeSmith> ack Sean 
15:13:58 <Zakim> Sean, you wanted to say if we want the figure to be equivalent to aria-labelledby we would need figcaption to be available outside <figure>
15:14:44 <chaals> SH: complete equivalence between figure and aria-labelledby would require the figcaption can go anywhere and have a pointer to the caption
15:14:52 <chaals> MS: Docbook does that.
15:15:19 <chaals> JO'C: Having the close association is useful for AT where the element isn't actually supported.
15:15:44 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
15:15:55 <chaals> CMN: Hidden does what the ARIA equivalent does, and seems useful to me.
15:16:01 <oedipus> "All HTML elements may have the hidden content attribute set. The hidden attribute is a boolean attribute. When specified on an element, it indicates that the element is not yet, or is no longer, relevant. User agents should not render elements that have the hidden attribute specified."
15:16:03 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
15:16:38 <chaals> ... I think it is a good thing, although I could live without it given we will get it in aria.
15:16:51 <chaals> CS: [says about the same]
15:17:29 <oedipus> "The hidden attribute must not be used to hide content that could legitimately be shown in another presentation. For example, it is incorrect to use hidden to hide panels in a tabbed dialog, because the tabbed interface is merely a kind of overflow presentation — one could equally well just show all the form controls in one big page with a scrollbar. It is similarly incorrect to use this attribute to hide content just from one presentation — if someth
15:18:09 <oedipus> key point: " if something is marked hidden, it is hidden from all presentations, including, for instance, screen readers"
15:18:51 <oedipus> note: "Elements in a section hidden by the hidden attribute are still active, e.g. scripts and form controls in such sections still execute and submit respectively. Only their presentation to the user changes."
15:19:11 <chaals> EC: It's like display:none but without the nasty side effects.
15:19:25 <chaals> MC: It is slightly different from aria-hidden...
15:19:54 <oedipus> remember HTML5 hidden applies to ALL elements
15:20:31 <chaals> JS: Not sure this has an accessibility impact...
15:20:48 <chaals> CS: There is some impact (but not a lot).
15:20:53 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-progress-element-0
15:21:07 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeprogress
15:21:18 <chaals> MS: One of the core arguments about progress is whether it improves accessibility.
15:21:35 <oedipus> this is ISSUE 96
15:22:03 <chaals> [The same arguments are repeated - people want the native semantics]
15:22:16 <chaals> JO'C: Ditto meter...
15:22:23 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-meter-element-0
15:22:48 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removemeter
15:23:16 <oedipus> "From an accessibility perspective, using the progress element isn't simpler than the ARIA values. The min and max values, whether ARIA or progress element, are statically assigned in the associated element, and the current value is updated based on the progress of the element. What does differ is that the progress element does have a visual indicator that is automatically updated. Unfortunately, though, it's a visual indicator we have no control over. Wh
15:23:17 <chaals> SH: For the progress element, there are things that don't work as well as the aria approach
15:23:51 <chaals> CS: Yes, but sit should be improved, not removed.
15:24:32 <chaals> MK: Not convinced any of these new elements will be used widely. They may end up unloved like kbd, but they are useful and I wouldn't remove them.
15:25:12 <chaals> ... Shouldn't it be noted that the hidden attribute is read-only?
15:25:16 <chaals> MC: Sure.
15:25:38 <chaals> CS: So we have some bugs to file on these elements, but we don't want them to be removed.
15:26:25 <chaals> Proposed RESOLUTION: The TF opposes the change proposals to remove the elements listed above. We maintain the work item to check them and make them good.
15:26:46 <chaals> s/good/better/
15:26:51 <oedipus> plus 1
15:27:03 <oedipus> to ensure that they are in harmony
15:27:05 <janina> +1
15:27:11 <janina> Chocalate is best
15:27:12 <chaals> s/better/better harmonised with ARIA semantics/
15:27:15 <cyns> +1
15:27:35 <oedipus> plus 1 to resolution, plus 1000 to chocolate
15:27:55 <chaals> RESOLUTION: The TF opposes the change proposals to remove the elements listed above. We maintain the work item to check them and make them good.
15:28:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:28:11 <MichaelC> s/good/better/
15:28:23 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #html-a11y
15:28:24 <chaals> s/opposes/proposes to oppose/
15:29:03 <MichaelC> s/better/better harmonized with ARIA semantics/
15:29:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:29:47 <chaals> ["proposes to oppose" subject to what the TF agrees following its process]
15:30:11 <chaals> Topic: New stuff... display, focus, labels semantics.
15:30:26 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
15:30:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Display
15:30:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Focus
15:30:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Labels
15:30:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Semantics
15:30:50 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: look through the bugzilla bug lists for each of these
15:31:04 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=a11ytf+a11y_display
15:33:15 <oedipus> with sound events, there needs to be sharing of audio device - many software synths allow WAV files, for example, whilst simultaneously processing speech
15:33:35 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:34:40 <cyns> irc crashed on me.  url of bug?
15:34:55 <chaals> [chaals leaves meeting]
15:35:10 <oedipus> -> a11y tagged bugs http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=a11ytf+a11y_display
15:36:44 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-a11y
15:37:24 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: these are issues that were raised as a result of PF discussion
15:37:46 <MikeSmith> janina: I expect we will bring a good number of them forward, if not all
15:40:28 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: I think we need a person to go through these and sort them out.. and maybe that's me
15:40:42 <MikeSmith> ... what I can do is figure our where they originated from
15:40:42 <cyns> have to step out for 15 minutes
15:42:06 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: after I check on who originated them, I can then make a personal recommendation to the TF on what actions, if any, to take for each
15:42:37 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: even if we assign these to people, we are then left to also figure out how to get people to carry through on the work
15:45:22 <MichaelC> action: cooper to review bugs for display, focus, labels, and semantics to 1) find originator, 2) propose disposition (work on, leave as is, push back on current status), 3) assign work items to people (possible originators)
15:45:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Review bugs for display, focus, labels, and semantics to 1) find originator, 2) propose disposition (work on, leave as is, push back on current status), 3) assign work items to people (possible originators) [on Michael Cooper - due 2010-04-14].
15:46:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Work_Topics
15:49:20 <cyns> back now
15:49:39 <oedipus> FYI http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/AsideHeaderFooterDoubts
15:51:12 <kliehm> logging out to fetch my train to airport
15:52:02 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:52:09 <oedipus> note longdesc for IFRAME is eliminated
15:52:10 <kliehm> s/fetch/catch/
15:53:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8747
15:53:48 <oedipus> -> semantics bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8747
15:55:24 <Marco_Ranon> for Gez? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7721
15:55:35 <MichaelC> action-26: Also Drag & Drop - Gez being asked to take on 7721
15:55:35 <trackbot> ACTION-26 Review bugs for display, focus, labels, and semantics to 1) find originator, 2) propose disposition (work on, leave as is, push back on current status), 3) assign work items to people (possible originators) notes added
15:56:20 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
15:56:51 <oedipus> thanks to RNIB and all facillitators
15:56:55 <Zakim> -??P6
15:57:02 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:57:06 <oedipus> happy trails, y'all
15:57:06 <cyns> talk to you all next week
15:57:20 <Zakim> -cyns
15:57:49 <MikeSmith> indeed, much thanks to RNIB and to Sally for excellent hosting arrangements
15:58:00 <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
15:58:21 <Zakim> -FtF
15:58:21 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has ended
15:58:22 <Zakim> Attendees were Laura, cyns, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike_Smith, Charles_McCathieNevile, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm,
15:58:24 <Zakim> ... Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner, Marco_Ranon
15:58:29 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
16:00:43 <MichaelC> present+ Sean_Hayes
16:01:07 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
16:01:18 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-actions.rdf :
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steve to post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments [1]
16:01:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-irc#T14-45-22
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cooper to review bugs for display, focus, labels, and semantics to 1) find originator, 2) propose disposition (work on, leave as is, push back on current status), 3) assign work items to people (possible originators) [2]
16:01:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-irc#T15-45-22
16:01:20 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
16:01:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y