16:04:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:04:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc
16:04:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:04:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:04:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
16:04:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:04:20 <trackbot> Date: 06 April 2010
16:05:07 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
16:05:07 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:05:13 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:05:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.512.471.aaaa, [IPcaller], Soeren, Ashok_Malhotra, ??P28, +039046128aabb, +1.562.249.aacc, [IPcaller.a], OpenLink_Software
16:05:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Marcelo, Ahmed, hhalpin, soeren, angela_UNITN, Ashok, juansequeda, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:05:24 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:05:24 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:05:28 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:05:28 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:05:33 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??p28 is hhalpin
16:05:33 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:05:47 <juansequeda> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:05:47 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:07:16 <hhalpin> minutes:
16:07:45 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:07:45 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:07:47 <Zakim> +EricP
16:07:55 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:08:04 <hhalpin> APPROVED: minutes from 30th of March.
16:09:34 <Zakim> +??P2
16:09:36 <hhalpin> chair: Ahmed
16:09:41 <hhalpin> scribe: hhalpin
16:09:46 <hhalpin> ScribeNick: hhalpin
16:09:53 <hhalpin> topic: Going over use-cases
16:10:11 <hhalpin> See e-mail from Dan/Juan textified by EricP
16:10:38 <li_ma> li_ma has joined #rdb2rdf
16:11:32 <MacTed> +1
16:12:33 <hhalpin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Apr/0004.html
16:12:40 <MacTed> 3 case primitives still not in there
16:12:43 <MacTed> ?
16:12:49 <hhalpin> Ashok: I am concerned this use-case and requirement doc is too large!
16:12:57 <hhalpin> Ahmed: I do tend to agree
16:12:59 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:12:59 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:13:04 <hhalpin> Daniel: It's about 26 pages printed
16:13:12 <hhalpin> ericP: Can we just remove redundant use cases
16:13:33 <hhalpin> MacTed: There are 3 case primitives that have not been delimited, and we can pick one of each of them to make document short and sweet
16:14:00 <hhalpin> ericP: there are a number of reasons why one would want relational data on the rdb2rdf and a number of expressivity requirements
16:14:05 <juansequeda> There is a XLS doc attached that shows how all the use cases are categorized per the taxonomy that we presented
16:14:09 <hhalpin> ericP: the objections are that its too long.
16:14:12 <juansequeda> I just put the XLS on a google doc: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tIJFfWcie4XSod7jcnMaBaQ&output=html
16:14:25 <MacTed> hhalpin - I'm guessing that's your keyboard banging ... can you mute that or move your mic or something?
16:14:43 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's making noise?
16:14:54 <Zakim> hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P2 (4%), MacTed (34%), EricP (92%)
16:15:33 <MacTed> hhalpin - it went quiet as soon as you asked him to listen  :-/
16:15:35 <hhalpin> ericP: that we are not motivating the project as much
16:15:46 <hhalpin> ... what do we try to communicate to people?
16:16:05 <hhalpin> ... if we have illustrative text and some analysis, we are community a service
16:16:15 <hhalpin> Ahmed: Should we still requirement?
16:16:33 <hhalpin> Daniel: Requirements need to be cover the issues
16:17:04 <hhalpin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Apr/0000.html
16:17:12 <juansequeda> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tIJFfWcie4XSod7jcnMaBaQ&output=html
16:17:13 <hhalpin> +1 going through this taxonomy
16:17:47 <hhalpin> daniel: this is a potential way to structure the use-case document
16:17:57 <hhalpin> ... this taxonomy is our technical requirement
16:18:06 <hhalpin> ... which use-case cover which requirement
16:18:14 <Zakim> -Soeren
16:18:17 <hhalpin> ... and of course more than one use-case per requirement needs to be deleted
16:18:26 <hhalpin> ... but we need to cover these requirements
16:19:25 <Zakim> +Soeren
16:20:23 <hhalpin> MacTed: I'm looking at the spreadsheet and seeing 5 examples of schema joining
16:20:31 <hhalpin> ... one semi-structured to mashup
16:20:38 <hhalpin> ... nothing showing structured to semi-structured
16:21:16 <hhalpin> MacTed: let's go through this primitive use-cases
16:21:23 <hhalpin> ... and make sure we have those as headings
16:21:37 <hhalpin> ericP: not sure these are more important than expressivity requirements.
16:21:49 <hhalpin> MacTed: but the expressivity flow from the use-cases, not lead to them.
16:22:03 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:22:03 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:22:05 <Zakim> +EricP.a
16:22:13 <hhalpin> daniel: would like to see the use-cases connected to pieces of expressivity
16:22:15 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP.a
16:22:15 <Zakim> EricP.a is being disconnected
16:22:16 <Zakim> -EricP.a
16:22:17 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:22:17 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:22:19 <Zakim> +EricP.a
16:22:21 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP.a
16:22:21 <Zakim> EricP.a is being disconnected
16:22:23 <Zakim> -EricP.a
16:22:30 <hhalpin> soeren: do we have to focus on unstructured information?
16:22:38 <hhalpin> ... isn't that beyond scope?
16:22:44 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP
16:22:44 <Zakim> EricP is being disconnected
16:22:46 <Zakim> -EricP
16:22:49 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:22:49 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:22:51 <Zakim> +EricP
16:22:53 <hhalpin> unstructured?
16:23:22 <hhalpin> Ahmed: But it is part of the motivation
16:23:34 <hhalpin> ... just structured is a bit short-sighted
16:24:04 <hhalpin> MacTed: it's not a matter of focussing
16:24:10 <hhalpin> ... they elaborate on the motivation
16:24:20 <hhalpin> ... my motivation is to join structured and unstructured
16:24:31 <hhalpin> ... my use-case is I have Oracle database and a website data.
16:24:42 <hhalpin> ... but there's ways we could say that there's a way to do that.
16:25:51 <hhalpin> ericP: there's a formulaic way to create node identifiers, but we need to explain why there are less formulaic ways that are needed
16:26:04 <hhalpin> ... we need to explain the combination of these two tables create a new kinda table
16:26:08 <hhalpin> ... and microparsing or not
16:26:13 <hhalpin> ... we need these kinds of requirements
16:26:31 <hhalpin> MacTed: But aren't these implementation details?
16:26:53 <hhalpin> ... in one case, the thing I want to join to is more RDB data, or RDF already, or something that could be RDF.
16:27:24 <hhalpin> Ahmed: if it's a use-case where RDB2RDF is used for integration of structured and unstructured data.
16:29:10 <hhalpin> Ahmed: the main effort is moving structured and unstructured data.
16:29:23 <hhalpin> ... this is the main problem, structured data and structured data we already do in the database world
16:29:34 <hhalpin> ... so I'd like to see the motivation, even though it's larger than the charter
16:29:37 <hhalpin> ... is fine.
16:29:46 <hhalpin> ... even if the unstructured does not part of the charter
16:29:59 <hhalpin> MacTed: not on same page
16:30:21 <hhalpin> ... degree to which we want to push away the use-case to reduce to move to RDB data to RDF
16:30:28 <hhalpin> ... but requirements should be limited
16:30:45 <hhalpin> Ashok: not motivating the use-case, just requirement
16:30:57 <hhalpin> MacTed: we are not focussing on how unstructured data to RDF.
16:31:16 <hhalpin> Soeren: How do you distinguish this
16:31:41 <hhalpin> q+
16:31:50 <hhalpin> Ahmed: We have a relational database 
16:31:54 <hhalpin> ... and we have HTML pages and PDF pages
16:32:01 <hhalpin> ... and we have a newsfeed that's real-time
16:32:11 <hhalpin> ... and we want to combine these in real-time
16:32:21 <hhalpin> ... the main motivation for me is to deal with RDF
16:32:27 <hhalpin> ... is that one.
16:32:39 <hhalpin> ... we can highlight this motivation the way we want
16:32:48 <hhalpin> ... but we don't need a separate requirement for this.
16:35:26 <hhalpin> I'd say its a continuum between structured data and unstructured data
16:35:32 <hhalpin> and we can just assume
16:35:46 <hhalpin> Ahmed: 15 percent relational data, 85 percent unstructured, unstrucutred growing faster
16:35:58 <hhalpin> ... and so we must integrate over this, and that could be motivating
16:36:09 <hhalpin> ... and we have a small piece of this larger problem
16:36:40 <hhalpin> juan: our numbers are kinda backwards
16:36:51 <hhalpin> Ahmed: I'm referring to well-understood numbers
16:36:54 <hhalpin> MacTed: +1 Ahmed
16:37:00 <hhalpin> let's send an e-mail about these numbers out
16:37:34 <hhalpin> Ahmed: the question is unstructured in the universe as opposed to just on Websites, I think your numbers are from websites juan
16:37:46 <hhalpin> Ahmed: Are we converging here?
16:37:51 <hhalpin> MacTed: From my part we've converged.
16:37:58 <hhalpin> Ashok: I think we have converged.
16:38:11 <hhalpin> ... but would like a better feeling for what people are talking about unstructured data
16:38:16 <hhalpin> text, XML, etc?
16:39:07 <hhalpin> RDF+XML = semi-structured
16:39:19 <hhalpin> relational data = structured
16:39:29 <hhalpin> text and tags (including text inside documents) = unstructured
16:39:44 <hhalpin> and unstructured text inside semi-structured data.
16:42:03 <hhalpin> Ahmed: so it seems we have consensus here
16:42:29 <hhalpin> daniel: we need to finish out that spreadsheet
16:42:34 <hhalpin> and write the preambles
16:42:39 <hhalpin> the use-cases are of vastly different sizes
16:43:36 <hhalpin> Ahmed: Angela would do motivation section
16:43:50 <hhalpin> can we repeat whose working on what?
16:44:06 <hhalpin> ericP: we can use tables in existing wiki
16:44:25 <hhalpin> ... do you want a template?
16:44:45 <hhalpin> MacTed: wiki tables are a nightmare.
16:44:49 <hhalpin> q?
16:44:52 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
16:45:14 <Zakim> -Soeren
16:45:42 <hhalpin> we could do tables by hand?
16:45:46 <hhalpin> in HTML
16:45:56 <hhalpin> ericP: someone could make a template for wiki?
16:47:01 <hhalpin> MacTed: we can keep in spreadsheet
16:47:17 <hhalpin> ericP: access control in google spreadsheet
16:47:31 <hhalpin> juan: if you want to edit it, send me an e-mail
16:47:35 <hhalpin> ericP: that works for me.
16:48:25 <hhalpin> ACTION: ericP to structure document motivation, use-cases, and requirements
16:48:25 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
16:48:32 <hhalpin> ACTION: eric to structure document motivation, use-cases, and requirements
16:48:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Structure document motivation, use-cases, and requirements [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-04-13].
16:48:48 <hhalpin> ACTION: angela to draft motivation text for use-case document
16:48:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Draft motivation text for use-case document [on Angela Fogarolli - due 2010-04-13].
16:49:35 <hhalpin> ACTION: angela and daniel to work on use-case section of document
16:49:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - And daniel to work on use-case section of document [on Angela Fogarolli - due 2010-04-13].
16:50:31 <hhalpin> ACTION: eric to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:50:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-04-13].
16:50:37 <hhalpin> ACTION: soeren to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:50:37 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - soeren
16:50:43 <hhalpin> ACTION: soren to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:50:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - soren
16:50:51 <hhalpin> ACTION: sauer to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:50:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [on Sören Auer - due 2010-04-13].
16:51:00 <hhalpin> ACTION: jsequada to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:51:00 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jsequada
16:51:09 <hhalpin> ACTION: jsequeda to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:51:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [on Juan Sequeda - due 2010-04-13].
16:53:36 <hhalpin> ACTION: MacTed to help with use-case restructuring and motivation text
16:53:36 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MacTed
16:53:53 <MacTed> my w3 handle is tthibodeau (I believe)
16:53:55 <hhalpin> MacTed: would like to work on the motivation and use-case structuring
16:54:18 <hhalpin> ACTION: angela to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:54:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [on Angela Fogarolli - due 2010-04-13].
16:55:01 <hhalpin> ACTION: leef to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases
16:55:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-04-13].
16:55:21 <hhalpin> ACTION: thibodeau to work on motivations and use-case restructuring
16:55:21 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - thibodeau
16:55:23 <Zakim> -EricP
16:55:24 <Zakim> -hhalpin
16:55:27 <hhalpin> ACTION: tthibodeau to work on motivations and use-case restructuring
16:55:27 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tthibodeau
16:55:27 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:55:29 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:55:30 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
16:55:30 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:55:32 <Zakim> - +1.562.249.aacc
16:55:34 <Zakim> - +039046128aabb
16:55:49 <hhalpin> trackbot, meeting adjourned
16:55:49 <trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, meeting adjourned'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:55:55 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
16:55:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:55:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.471.aaaa, [IPcaller], Soeren, Ashok_Malhotra, +039046128aabb, +1.562.249.aacc, MacTed, hhalpin, juansequeda, EricP, EricP.a
16:55:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:55:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
16:55:56 <hhalpin> :)
16:55:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to structure document motivation, use-cases, and requirements [1]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-48-25
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eric to structure document motivation, use-cases, and requirements [2]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-48-32
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: angela to draft motivation text for use-case document [3]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-48-48
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: angela and daniel to work on use-case section of document [4]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-49-35
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eric to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [5]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-50-31
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: soeren to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [6]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-50-37
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: soren to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [7]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-50-43
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sauer to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [8]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-50-51
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jsequada to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [9]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-51-00
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jsequeda to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [10]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-51-09
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MacTed to help with use-case restructuring and motivation text [11]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-53-36
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: angela to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [12]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-54-18
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: leef to make sure spreadsheet is complete for their use-cases [13]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-55-01
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: thibodeau to work on motivations and use-case restructuring [14]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-55-21
16:55:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tthibodeau to work on motivations and use-case restructuring [15]
16:55:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-55-27
16:56:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]