16:03:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-irc
16:03:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:03:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:03:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
16:03:41 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:03:41 <trackbot> Date: 30 March 2010
16:03:51 <sdas2> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:51 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, sdas2
16:03:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Seema, hhalpin, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, Ahmed, nunolopes, sdas2, whalb, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:03:57 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:57 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, hhalpin
16:03:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Seema, hhalpin, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, Ahmed, nunolopes, sdas2, whalb, LeeF, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:04:14 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on irc?
16:04:14 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
16:04:14 <angela_UNITN> angela_UNITN has joined #RDB2RDF
16:04:22 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #RDB2RDF
16:04:34 <hhalpin> Zakim, this is rdb2rdf
16:04:34 <Zakim> ok, hhalpin; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:04:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:04:43 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], whalb, +1.512.471.aaaa, Ashok_Malhotra, nunolopes, ??P5, Souri, Seema, [IPcaller.a], +1.850.324.aabb, OpenLink_Software
16:04:59 <hhalpin> Zakim, aabb is hhalpin
16:04:59 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:05:09 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:05:09 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:05:12 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:05:12 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:05:19 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:05:19 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:05:32 <Zakim> + +39.046.1.aacc
16:05:43 <nunolopes> Zakim, cygri is with nunolopes
16:05:43 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:07:00 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:07:00 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:07:02 <Zakim> +EricP
16:07:10 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute me
16:07:10 <Zakim> hhalpin should no longer be muted
16:07:13 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:07:21 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:07:21 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:08:08 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:08:08 <Zakim> hhalpin was already muted, hhalpin
16:08:18 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute me
16:08:18 <Zakim> hhalpin should no longer be muted
16:10:19 <hhalpin> scribe?
16:10:40 <Zakim> - +39.046.1.aacc
16:10:46 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:10:51 <hhalpin> +1
16:11:10 <Zakim> + +039046128aadd
16:11:31 <hhalpin> ACTION: eric to review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details
16:11:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-04-06].
16:11:53 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Orri to sum up today's discussion
16:12:12 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
16:12:48 <hhalpin> Any action in particular, Ahmed?
16:13:14 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:14:43 <hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to begin a draft of Working Group Note on use-cases, ordering them from most complete to least complete
16:14:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Begin a draft of Working Group Note on use-cases, ordering them from most complete to least complete [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-06].
16:15:08 <li_ma> li_ma has joined #rdb2rdf
16:15:13 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: Sum up today's discussion
16:15:17 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Expressivity
16:15:53 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: Create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage
16:16:15 <Ahmed> Ahmed has joined #RDB2RDF
16:16:25 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Expressivity
16:16:59 <Zakim> + +1.562.249.aaee
16:17:07 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:17:07 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:17:29 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:17:54 <Marcelo> Sorry, I am late (I was in a meeting)
16:18:57 <hhalpin>  Marcelo - we are discussing use-cases right now, perhaps you should read http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Expressivity
16:19:10 <hhalpin> scribe: hhalpin
16:19:13 <hhalpin> scribenick: hhalpin
16:19:23 <Marcelo> OK, thanks
16:19:31 <hhalpin> ericP: I don't want to present people with too much info
16:19:36 <hhalpin> ... as they might get lots
16:19:40 <hhalpin> s/lots/lost
16:21:17 <hhalpin> ... the DDL should be a link out, but we should keep the table right in people's faces
16:21:24 <juansequeda> Here is the url : http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#COI_Patient_Recruitment_Demo
16:21:26 <hhalpin> Ashok: what about URLs? 
16:21:39 <Souri> Table definitions is good enough
16:21:53 <hhalpin> juan: its too verbose to keep SQL DDL in document
16:22:12 <hhalpin> ... but lets have a link out to the DDL and ER diagrams in document
16:22:41 <hhalpin> ericP: Strike tables and have ER diagrams?
16:22:54 <hhalpin> Ahmed: Lets have it so people can click on ER diagrams and see it.
16:23:00 <hhalpin> ericP: haven't built ER diagrams yet
16:23:11 <Souri> "DDL" is often vendor specific -- just putting the "table definitions" should be good enough
16:23:31 <hhalpin> Ashok: inline, hyperlink, both fine with me.
16:23:45 <hhalpin> ericP: Does anyone want to make ER diagrams for all the databases?
16:24:10 <hhalpin> ACTION: juan will make ER diagrams for use-case document
16:24:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Will make ER diagrams for use-case document [on Juan Sequeda - due 2010-04-06].
16:25:58 <Souri> q+ to say we just need definitions of tables and constraints -- *not* the DDL statements as such
16:25:59 <hhalpin> ericP: not sure how to specify the identity requirements of the "same" person
16:26:06 <hhalpin> ack Souri
16:26:06 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to say we just need definitions of tables and constraints -- *not* the DDL statements as such
16:26:31 <hhalpin> Souri: I wanted to mention that we should say "Table Definitions and Constraint Definitions" rather than DDL
16:26:38 <hhalpin> ... as that can be vendor-specific
16:26:46 <hhalpin> ... DDL is a misnomer
16:26:55 <hhalpin> ericP: I thought it was in ericP
16:27:03 <hhalpin> ... it was in SQL 1992
16:27:28 <hhalpin> Souri: We just need table, vendor specific aspects
16:27:33 <hhalpin> ... can be kept out
16:27:46 <hhalpin> juan: yes, we can keep it simple - just types, etc.
16:28:55 <hhalpin> souri: what are we talking about identity resolution
16:29:11 <hhalpin> angela: we create an okkam id for each patient
16:29:21 <hhalpin> ... in my use-case
16:30:31 <Souri> q+
16:30:37 <hhalpin> q+
16:30:55 <hhalpin> angela: we could have a table for okkam ids
16:31:20 <hhalpin> ericP: if we have a look-up table, then we think graph transformations and identity isomorphisms meet your requirements
16:31:50 <hhalpin> angela: as long as I can do union of two graphs if these talk about same entity
16:32:22 <Souri> q?
16:32:24 <hhalpin> ericP: or some table that specifies the table with unique identifier
16:33:15 <hhalpin> souri: we may call the same person john or johnny with some equivalentces
16:33:19 <hhalpin> ... that is very voluminous
16:33:41 <hhalpin> ... so we have to create those as a separate look-up table
16:33:46 <hhalpin> ... and then maintain the lookup table.
16:33:52 <hhalpin> ,.. thats another part
16:33:55 <hhalpin> ... of the entire thing
16:34:08 <hhalpin> ... so given one database, so we can map to SPARQL
16:34:15 <hhalpin> ... so we can do individual equivalence
16:34:31 <Souri> q-
16:34:32 <hhalpin> Ahmed: the issue is metadata management 
16:34:44 <hhalpin> ... this is an integration above the mapping language
16:34:54 <hhalpin> ericP: we have tables that map from one identifier to another
16:35:00 <hhalpin> ... tuple identifiers
16:35:01 <cygri> q+
16:35:24 <hhalpin> Ahmed: trying to distinguish between schema to another, one particular database to another
16:35:30 <MacTed> unmute me
16:35:32 <MacTed> q+
16:35:38 <hhalpin> ... then we want to match multiple databases from one mapping to another.
16:36:02 <hhalpin> "The mapping language MUST allow for a mechanism to create identifiers for database entities. The generation of identifiers should be designed to support the implementation of the linked data principles. Where possible, the language will encourage the reuse of public identifiers for long-lived entities such as persons, corporations and geo-locations."
16:36:11 <hhalpin> from charter
16:36:20 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2009/08/rdb2rdf-charter.html
16:36:29 <hhalpin> ?
16:36:29 <MacTed> mute me
16:36:54 <hhalpin> angela: one way to solve this is to use OKKAM ID?
16:37:13 <Souri> q?
16:37:21 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute me
16:37:21 <Zakim> hhalpin should no longer be muted
16:37:29 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
16:38:03 <ericP> q?
16:40:06 <cygri> ack cygri
16:40:56 <hhalpin> semantics of SPARQL 1.0?
16:42:54 <hhalpin> so lets think of it as "best guess at this point in the experience of the WG" rather than "we have fulfilled this requirement of the charter by using particular technique X [where X could be OKKAM IDs, etc. etc.]
16:43:36 <angela_UNITN> i agree...
16:44:30 <hhalpin> so lets have OKKAM IDs say, we fulfill this charter requirement, etc. and that graph expressivity may match it.
16:45:02 <hhalpin> rather than MUST match it (personally worried about vendor-specific requirements)
16:45:54 <hhalpin> ericP: I just want us to require as much as possible so the community can see if we are specifying the problem correctly
16:45:59 <Souri> q?
16:46:10 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/
16:46:42 <hhalpin> ericP: if we use languages that have semantics for sort of stuff like ID transformations 
16:47:09 <hhalpin> ... like RIF, but maybe we don't want a language that leans on a second step 
16:47:24 <hhalpin> ... then we need to couch the shared ontology in terms of relational schema
16:47:36 <hhalpin> ... here's the effect we want and lets be agnostic about what we want.
16:47:57 <hhalpin> Ahmed: I like that, so far, but we need to set-up some engine
16:48:08 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:48:08 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:48:19 <hhalpin> ericP: I just do transformations re language
16:48:21 <hhalpin> q?
16:48:52 <cygri> hhalpin, no my point has been made
16:48:56 <hhalpin> ericP: not sure if group as a whole as bought into it, but want to push the ultimate semantic effect we want
16:49:02 <hhalpin> ack MacTed
16:49:08 <juansequeda> q+
16:49:34 <hhalpin> MacTed: It seems to me that the whole concept of mapping IDs across databases goes way beyond of exposing RDB data to RDF
16:49:50 <hhalpin> ... figuring out whether or not is outside the scope.
16:50:03 <hhalpin> ... figuring out those rules and being able to change them as we go is part of what is wanted
16:50:19 <hhalpin> ... actually saying these ID in that schema is equivalent is outside of the schema
16:50:27 <hhalpin> ericP: I think thats what we arrived at in discussing the tax case
16:50:37 <hhalpin> ... i.e. we have an extra mapping table with a simple join
16:51:09 <hhalpin> notes that we need to give people an option to re-use identifiers, but this can be an option (i.e. use OKKAM, etc.)
16:51:22 <hhalpin> MacTed: Doesn't this change things radically, we don't want to write to data?
16:51:49 <hhalpin> ericP: Do you want a new requirement that is beyond graph expressivitiy, lookup, and simple joins?
16:52:36 <hhalpin> MacTed: I don't think I'm asking for more than that
16:52:50 <hhalpin> ... was worried by Souri's argument about voluminous
16:53:00 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:53:00 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:53:00 <ericP> q?
16:53:02 <hhalpin> ack juansequeda
16:53:16 <hhalpin> juan: What EricP was going on, about the local ontology
16:53:23 <hhalpin> ... one thing is our mapping language
16:53:32 <hhalpin> angela: we should have an option to have this mapping language
16:54:41 <hhalpin> juan: I'm worried that would require lot of expressivity
16:54:53 <hhalpin> angela: what I was saying that this maps a domain ontology to a local ontology
16:55:02 <hhalpin> ... we want option to map column of table to domain ontology
16:55:05 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
16:57:26 <hhalpin> so you can imagine some people would want to control the URIs being generated on a more fine-grained level of detail rather than just a "genID" approach
16:57:52 <hhalpin> and this could be provided by some direct control over the URI mapping of particular schemas in addition to the "voluminous" table identifiers
16:58:01 <hhalpin> but the "linked automatically" part is
16:58:18 <hhalpin> a "where possible" option, not a MUST requirement from the charter
16:58:22 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:58:22 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:58:36 <hhalpin> daniel: you can imagine the linked data
16:58:47 <hhalpin> ... being either an identifier or a 
16:58:49 <Souri> let us first solve the problem for one database, later if time permits we can try to tackle the mult-database aspects
16:58:54 <hhalpin> ... new one for the hub
16:59:14 <hhalpin> +1 souri, but let's leave that option open in the use-case requirement, clearly specified as "where possible" and optional.
16:59:30 <Souri> I agree harry
16:59:43 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:59:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:59:54 <hhalpin> it seems ericP own writing it
16:59:56 <hhalpin> :)
17:00:10 <hhalpin> will help with pubrules and commonscribe mess.
17:00:26 <hhalpin> Ahmed: lets try to finish on time so we can have more reviews
17:00:54 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
17:00:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:00:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], whalb, +1.512.471.aaaa, Ashok_Malhotra, nunolopes, Souri, Seema, +1.850.324.aabb, hhalpin, MacTed, +39.046.1.aacc, cygri,
17:00:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:00:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eric to review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details [1]
17:00:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-11-31
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin to begin a draft of Working Group Note on use-cases, ordering them from most complete to least complete [2]
17:00:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-14-43
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: juan will make ER diagrams for use-case document [3]
17:00:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/30-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-24-10
17:00:58 <Zakim> ... EricP, +039046128aadd, +1.562.249.aaee
17:01:14 <hhalpin> sysreq@w3.org