16:01:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-irc
16:01:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:01:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start now
16:01:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:16 <trackbot> Date: 23 March 2010
16:01:19 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed
16:01:23 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas
16:01:28 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Mar/0074.html
16:01:32 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:01:35 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
16:01:40 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
16:01:42 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
16:01:42 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
16:01:46 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:01:50 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Harry
16:01:51 <MacTed> trackbot, start meeting
16:01:51 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:01:51 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
16:01:55 <MacTed> grr
16:02:04 <Zakim> +whalb
16:02:06 <MacTed> but it's not done it right
16:02:21 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:29 <Zakim> + +3539149aacc
16:02:30 <MacTed> else Zakim would have reported my join
16:02:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.512.471.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], ??P13, +49.322.222.0.aabb, OpenLink_Software, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, +3539149aacc
16:02:39 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
16:02:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, Zakim, RRSAgent, whalb, Ashok, Ahmed, Marcelo, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, nunolopes, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:02:44 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'mhausenblas'
16:02:51 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:51 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:02:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:03:04 <Zakim> +MIT262
16:03:07 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:08 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is me
16:03:08 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
16:03:12 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
16:03:12 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:03:17 <ericP> Zakim, MIT262 as LeeF, ericP
16:03:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'MIT262 as LeeF, ericP', ericP
16:03:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, nunolopes  is with mhausenblas 
16:03:23 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:03:26 <LeeF> Zakim, MIT262 has LeeF, EricP
16:03:26 <Zakim> +LeeF, EricP; got it
16:03:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:03:55 <Zakim> +Souri
16:04:22 <Zakim> +Seema
16:04:44 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:05:02 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.512.471.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], ??P13, +49.322.222.0.aabb, MacTed (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, mhausenblas, MIT262, Souri, Seema
16:05:06 <Zakim> MIT262 has LeeF, EricP
16:05:08 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
16:05:18 <Ahmed> Are we ready to start?
16:05:46 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:37 <ericP> harry will not be here today
16:07:17 <LeeF> zakim, who is speaking?
16:07:19 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:07:28 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:07:33 <LeeF> zakim, listen harder
16:07:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'listen harder', LeeF
16:07:39 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.322.222.0.aabb (80%), ??P13 (40%), mhausenblas (49%)
16:07:46 <Souri> Anyone has the URL for the public-rdb2rdf-wg email archive?
16:08:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is Soeren
16:08:02 <Zakim> +Soeren; got it
16:08:03 <LeeF> Souri, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/
16:08:16 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:08:27 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
16:08:38 <whalb> +1
16:08:41 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: group accepted minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:09:24 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: seems like the discussion on the mailing list seems rather minimal
16:09:44 <mhausenblas> ... we need to discuss the idea of the two-team approach
16:10:02 <LeeF> q+ to ask a beginner's question
16:10:25 <Zakim> +??P11
16:11:16 <Souri> We have sent an email with links to extended version of our example with a Part 3 that has SPARQL Query and its SQL translation (using the SQLdefString).
16:11:19 <Souri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Mar/0087.html
16:11:40 <mhausenblas> ack LeeF 
16:11:40 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask a beginner's question
16:12:27 <mhausenblas> LeeF: do you view the two approaches as mapping language approaches or implementation specific?
16:12:39 <mhausenblas> Orri: IMO a matter of syntax
16:12:56 <mhausenblas> ... primarily, yes, as of the preferences of the people
16:13:14 <mhausenblas> LeeF: that was my understanding as well
16:13:28 <mhausenblas> ... but got confused when I reviewed the WG's material
16:14:08 <juansequeda> I think it is Souri
16:14:14 <Seema> it is Souri
16:14:20 <mhausenblas> thanks ;) 
16:14:46 <mhausenblas> Souri: its about the schema, we need some glue to express it
16:15:29 <mhausenblas> ... view definition should be rather simple
16:16:21 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: Souri, the mapping the query is an orthogonal issue - we're about mapping data
16:16:46 <LeeF> Souri, the approach you explained sounds very similar to the D2RQ approach, where the "glue" is given via RDF but the ultimate expressivity is given by SQL fragments... i guess the difference is the SQL approach starts with a full-on SQL query/view?
16:17:10 <mhausenblas> Souri: we look into mapping a SPARQL to SQL query, re implementation
16:17:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:17:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:18:28 <mhausenblas> Topic: Update from both SQL & RDF mapping approach teams
16:18:41 <soeren> +q
16:20:01 <mhausenblas> Orri: Virtuoso is somewhere in the middle of the two approaches
16:20:41 <mhausenblas> ... experience shows that a SPARQL2SQL mapping is essential similar to D2R approach 
16:20:55 <LeeF> My target audience is definitely _not_ SQL people.
16:21:15 <mhausenblas> Orri: the SQL syntax is easier to sell (taking the target audience into consideration)
16:21:47 <mhausenblas> ... use cases will make the requirements apparent 
16:22:23 <cygri> +1 to everything Souri and Orri said
16:22:58 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: can be done either way (put load on user or database)
16:23:57 <mhausenblas> ack soeren 
16:24:12 <mhausenblas> soeren: I think the difference between both approaches is not that big
16:24:42 <mhausenblas> ... in SQL-based approach the view creation is part up-front
16:25:24 <mhausenblas> ... if it can be done in SQL, why redo it?
16:25:37 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:26:17 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: agree with Soeren -  but you don't need to create a view
16:26:30 <Souri> +q
16:26:53 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:27:09 <mhausenblas> Souri: we are *not* creating a view
16:27:15 <Ashok> q+
16:27:44 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
16:28:16 <mhausenblas> Ashok: want to point out that we're a chartered to write a mapping language
16:28:53 <ericP> q+
16:28:56 <mhausenblas> ... sure we need to have a ML implemented but not SPARQL2SQL
16:29:00 <Souri> +q
16:29:10 <LeeF> The charter gives 2 overall use cases for this group's work:
16:29:15 <LeeF> 1) Dumping RDB data into a triple store
16:29:18 <LeeF> 2) SPARQL to SQL translation
16:29:32 <LeeF> so it seems a little weird to ignore the 2nd overall use case
16:29:37 <mhausenblas> soeren: you need a SPARQL2SQL which yields the same
16:30:06 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: let's step back -  JDBC as an example; all about decoupling
16:30:22 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:30:46 <mhausenblas> ericP: from the spec POV it's nice to say: here is how our mapping works
16:31:02 <mhausenblas> ... but from the uptake , it needs to be implementable
16:31:34 <mhausenblas> ... then, performance becomes very relevant
16:32:16 <Ashok> Lee, where did you see "2) SPARQL to SQL translation" ?
16:32:25 <mhausenblas> ericP: Richard, can you confirm that for D2RQ can map always 1:1 in terms of queries?
16:32:27 <Ashok> It is not in the scope bullets
16:33:06 <mhausenblas> cygri: AFAICT, it should be possible to always translate 1:1
16:33:37 <mhausenblas> ericP: do you think the underlying algebra (re D2R) exists?
16:34:00 <mhausenblas> cygri: for this you need a formal representation for the ML (but this does not exist for D2R)
16:34:43 <mhausenblas> ... if you want to be sure that everything translates 1:1 we'd need it
16:34:55 <mhausenblas> ... would be great to have
16:35:25 <mhausenblas> ericP: I think we will not have real adoption if we lack this formal semantics
16:35:39 <LeeF> q?
16:36:01 <mhausenblas> Orri: Virtuoso uses proprietary extensions in some cases
16:36:39 <LeeF> I don't think the question is "can it be done" - the question is, how can I know when I've efficiently handled all cases
16:36:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:37:03 <mhausenblas> Souri: the aspect 'is it translateable' is not in scope (could be in a certain form)
16:37:11 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:37:11 <juansequeda> q+ 
16:38:09 <mhausenblas> Souri: proofing that a SPARQL query can be translated into x SQL queries, is out of scope
16:38:35 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
16:39:21 <mhausenblas> juansequeda: need the semantics of the mapping language;  we just guarantee that it works, not how to implement it
16:39:31 <Souri> +q
16:39:36 <Souri> q+
16:39:47 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: we should ensure that the ML is semantic valid
16:39:54 <mhausenblas> ack Souri
16:39:59 <mhausenblas> Souri: I disagree
16:40:13 <mhausenblas> ... we want to expose relational data as RDF
16:40:27 <mhausenblas> (explains a simple example)
16:42:37 <mhausenblas> Juan: we need both syntax and semantics, so we know what the language means
16:42:55 <Marcelo> I agree with Juan
16:43:02 <Souri> q+
16:43:49 <mhausenblas> Souri: with SQL approach, we use the SQL semantics which is well-known ... the semantics of the glue is very simple
16:44:28 <ericP> q?
16:44:32 <ericP> q+
16:44:45 <mhausenblas> soeren: how to be sure that a SPARQL query over your mapping into a SQL query is always possible?
16:45:02 <mhausenblas> Soeren: that's independent from the mapping, not part of charter of this group
16:45:12 <mhausenblas> s/Soeren/Souri/ in above
16:45:38 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:45:38 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:45:42 <MacTed> q+
16:45:53 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:46:10 <MacTed> can you guarantee that any SQL query can be executed?
16:46:19 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:46:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:46:19 <MacTed> especially, within reasonable time?
16:46:29 <Ashok> q+
16:48:37 <Ashok> q-
16:49:45 <mhausenblas> (Ahmed  and Souri discuss SQL details)
16:50:03 <mhausenblas> q?
16:50:29 <mhausenblas> ack ericP
16:51:01 <mhausenblas> ericP: we have a rough equivalence between SPARQL and SQL, beside the fact that the latter is much more epxressive 
16:51:25 <mhausenblas> ... for example SQL views
16:51:56 <mhausenblas> ... if I use a trivial representation of relational data as, say XML
16:52:26 <mhausenblas> (ericP has lost the scribe and will fill in the missing bits of his interesting example after the meeting)
16:53:18 <mhausenblas> Souri: what is the mapping language, really?
16:53:51 <mhausenblas> q?
16:53:59 <cygri> q+ to agree with Souri
16:55:27 <mhausenblas> juansequeda: 1:1 is simple, do we have 1:many use cases?
16:56:28 <mhausenblas> MacTed: does it make sense to give such a query-mapping gurantee?
16:57:18 <mhausenblas> soeren: every valid SQL is;  we should at least define which ones are guaranteed to be mapped
16:57:56 <cygri> q-
16:57:58 <mhausenblas> MacTed: not saying it is efficient - might take forever
16:58:44 <MacTed> ack MacTed
16:58:53 <Zakim> -Soeren
16:58:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:58:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:59:02 <soeren_> soeren_ has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:36 <mhausenblas> ericP: I ended up owning the UC doc
17:00:56 <cygri> soeren has already dropped from the call
17:01:09 <mhausenblas> ACTION: ericP to review the UC and report back to the WG
17:01:09 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
17:01:51 <LeeF> ACTION: eric to review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details
17:01:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-03-30].
17:03:40 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:03:40 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
17:04:20 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:04:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:04:26 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Orri to sum up today's discussion
17:04:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Sum up today's discussion [on Orri Erling - due 2010-03-30].
17:04:43 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:04:45 <Zakim> -MIT262
17:04:45 <Zakim> -Souri
17:04:47 <Zakim> -??P13
17:04:47 <Zakim> -Seema
17:04:48 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
17:04:49 <Zakim> -whalb
17:04:51 <Zakim> -??P11
17:04:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:04:54 <mhausenblas> zakim, list attendees
17:04:55 <Zakim> - +1.512.471.aaaa
17:04:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], +1.512.471.aaaa, +49.322.222.0.aabb, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, +3539149aacc, MacTed, mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes, LeeF, EricP,
17:04:59 <Zakim> ... Souri, Seema, Soeren
17:04:59 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:05:02 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:05:04 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:05:04 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:05:04 <juansequeda> LeeF, you still there?\
17:05:07 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], +1.512.471.aaaa, +49.322.222.0.aabb, Ashok_Malhotra, whalb, +3539149aacc, MacTed, mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes, LeeF, EricP, Souri, Seema, Soeren
17:11:49 <mhausenblas> bye Zakim 
17:11:55 <mhausenblas> bye RRSAgent 
17:12:00 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
17:12:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
17:12:05 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
17:12:05 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to review the UC and report back to the WG [1]
17:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-01-09
17:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eric to review the UC and report back to the WG with requests for more details [2]
17:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-01-51
17:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Orri to sum up today's discussion [3]
17:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-04-26