IRC log of fx on 2010-03-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
19:59:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:59:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:59:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #fx
19:59:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
19:59:58 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_(Effects TF)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:59:59 [trackbot]
Date: 11 March 2010
20:00:01 [ChrisL]
trackbot, start telcon
20:00:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:00:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
20:00:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_(Effects TF)3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:09 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:00:11 [trackbot]
Date: 11 March 2010
20:00:44 [ChrisL]
zakim - code?
20:00:53 [Zakim]
GA_(Effects TF)3:00PM has now started
20:01:00 [Zakim]
20:01:07 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:01:07 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:01:15 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:01:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
20:02:49 [Zakim]
20:03:06 [Zakim]
20:03:22 [shepazu]
code is FXTF
20:03:29 [dino]
dino has joined #fx
20:03:37 [ChrisL]
hi dino
20:03:38 [dino]
zakim, who is here?
20:03:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, Doug_Schepers, ChrisL
20:03:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dino, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisL, ed, plinss_, shepazu, ed_work_, anthony, ted, trackbot
20:03:46 [dino]
20:03:54 [Zakim]
20:04:04 [anthony]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:04:04 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:04:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.655.aaaa
20:04:21 [shepazu]
20:04:23 [dino]
duh - wrong number me!
20:04:31 [plinss_]
zakim, aaaa is me
20:04:31 [Zakim]
+plinss_; got it
20:04:35 [anne]
anne has joined #fx
20:04:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.454.aabb
20:04:45 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:04:46 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
20:04:50 [dino]
zakim, aabb is me
20:04:50 [Zakim]
+dino; got it
20:05:08 [anne]
fwiw, regarding the suggestion about having some kind of auto value
20:05:14 [anne]
I don't think that is needed at all
20:05:16 [anne]
20:06:19 [shepazu]
anne, will you join the call?
20:06:20 [ed]
20:07:32 [shepazu]
20:07:43 [anne]
shepazu, no sorry, don't really know much about transforms
20:07:59 [shepazu]
20:08:01 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
20:08:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, Doug_Schepers, ChrisL, anthony, plinss_, dino
20:08:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see anne, dino, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisL, ed, plinss_, shepazu, ed_work_, anthony, ted, trackbot
20:08:07 [anne]
also, I should really fetch some dinner
20:09:40 [ChrisL]
Scribe: Chris
20:09:47 [ChrisL]
ScribeNick: ChrisL
20:10:04 [ChrisL]
Topic: Charter and so on
20:10:25 [ChrisL]
Erik: Any change requests for the charter?
20:10:47 [ChrisL]
Doug: Clarify what font/textwrap means
20:11:17 [ChrisL]
Chris: Optical alignment
20:11:48 [ChrisL]
... no longer there, corrected to "Wrapping text to a shape"
20:12:02 [ChrisL]
Doug: Need to update the participant list
20:12:12 [Zakim]
20:12:18 [ChrisL]
Erik: UTF-8 issues, d'oh!
20:12:35 [ChrisL]
Zakim, list attendees
20:12:35 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], ed, Doug_Schepers, ChrisL, anthony, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss_, +1.408.454.aabb, dino, smfr
20:12:47 [ChrisL]
Simon: Dean is my hero
20:13:05 [shepazu]
20:13:18 [smfr]
smfr has joined #fx
20:13:58 [ChrisL]
Doug: Other issue is whether we have a lot of small specs or a smaller number that cover both SVG and CSS
20:14:15 [ChrisL]
... most seem in favour of specs that cover both
20:14:20 [ChrisL]
Erik: fine by me
20:14:39 [ChrisL]
Simon: Would joint deliverables approve all publications?
20:14:45 [ChrisL]
Doug: Yes
20:15:04 [ChrisL]
Simon: concerned over publication delays
20:15:22 [ChrisL]
... would this replace or be in addition to the CSS transforms spec?
20:15:28 [ChrisL]
Doug: Replace
20:15:37 [ChrisL]
Simon: Agree in principle
20:16:11 [ChrisL]
Chris: Harmonisation takes longer than agreeing on joint publication
20:16:28 [ChrisL]
Doug: Reasonable concern but manageable, deal with it if it arises
20:17:23 [ChrisL]
... we like putting trasform-x, transform-y on their own attrs. Don't recall any blocking iissues in the spec
20:17:37 [ChrisL]
... want to make sure it applies equally to CSS/HTML and SVG
20:17:55 [ChrisL]
Simon: OK sounds good, enough representation from both groups
20:18:20 [ChrisL]
Dino: Point is to take it out of scope of one group?
20:18:37 [ChrisL]
Chris: no, TF work has to be in scope for all WGs that contribute
20:18:53 [ChrisL]
Dino: So issue is really just about status, naming and so on
20:19:12 [ChrisL]
Erik: So keep it in CSS cvs space?
20:19:22 [ChrisL]
Dino: Don't care where it lives
20:19:59 [ChrisL]
Doug: Maybe easier to re-use, or to make a new one. WebApps reuses a repository from 2 groups, not a problem in practice as longas its documented
20:21:01 [ChrisL]
Anthony: Don't care as long as its consistent.
20:21:24 [ChrisL]
... prefer all TF docs in one place
20:22:00 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Doug to create an FX repository
20:22:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1 - Create an FX repository [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-03-18].
20:22:13 [ChrisL]
Resolved: We will have one FX TF repository
20:22:27 [ChrisL]
Doug: Editors - Dino and Anthony?
20:22:32 [ChrisL]
Anthony: Love to
20:22:44 [ChrisL]
Dino: Yippeee
20:23:27 [ChrisL]
Dino: Current spec has multiple editors, Simon isn't but should be, Hyatt is but should not, DBaron is an active editor too
20:23:46 [ChrisL]
Doug: Suggest folding in all editors
20:24:16 [ChrisL]
Dino; Actually not sure on Dbaron, in terms of editong, but he is certainly implementing
20:25:10 [ChrisL]
Resolved: Editors will be Dino, Simon, Anthony, and DBaron welcome too if he edits
20:25:50 [ChrisL]
s/Editors/Editors for Transforms/
20:26:20 [ChrisL]
Topic: CSS 2d Transforms and SVG Transforms differences
20:26:42 [ChrisL]
Erik: sent an email about how to implement CSS transforms in SVG
20:26:45 [ed]
20:27:22 [ed]
annevk had some comments on the auto-suggestion,
20:28:18 [ChrisL]
Erik: need to maintain backwards compat, and properties et in style sheets have higher specificity than any value set in a sttle sheet
20:28:31 [ChrisL]
s/sttle sheet/attribute/
20:28:47 [ChrisL]
Erik: Most comments seem to agree with the option 1 in my mail
20:29:20 [ChrisL]
Dino: Trying to understand what point Anne makes, the initial value should use the attribute
20:29:49 [ChrisL]
... doesn't quite work because transitions or animations that go through 'none' should go to the null transform
20:30:23 [ChrisL]
Chris; So we need separate values for identity transform and "use the attribute"
20:30:26 [ChrisL]
Dino: Yes
20:31:04 [ChrisL]
Simon: Exactly. Any transform creates a CSS stacking context and a positioning container
20:31:37 [ChrisL]
Doug: Also times when ther e is a transform that you want to blow away using CSS so we need that capability
20:31:49 [ChrisL]
Dino: Keyword "identity"?
20:33:04 [ChrisL]
... especially for animations, using lists. Transforms in a list animated separately, to avoid flattening rotations > 360 degrees. Should add an identity keyword. Still need an auto as an initial value, like none in CSS and does nothing in SVG
20:33:31 [ChrisL]
... identity is still a transform
20:33:46 [ChrisL]
Anthony; Can none be replaced by identity there
20:33:50 [ChrisL]
Dino : yes
20:34:25 [ChrisL]
Chris: So identity would deal with the 'blow off transform' case?
20:34:29 [ChrisL]
Dino: Yes
20:34:55 [ChrisL]
Dino: Rotate 720 when flattened gives rotate 0 so no movement instead of spinning twice
20:35:16 [ChrisL]
Anthony: Makes sense. Carry across to SVG as well
20:35:40 [ChrisL]
Dino: SVG does not cover this and it should
20:36:03 [ChrisL]
... CSS3 units spec requires normalisation to 0..360 and that has to be removed
20:36:11 [smfr]
20:37:14 [ChrisL]
Chris: Normalisation came from spatialised audio (where it made sense) but fpr geometric transformation, especially when animated, notrmalisation should be avoided
20:37:44 [ChrisL]
Simon: CSS transitions applying to SVG, intent to have these work also on transforms in SVG?
20:37:53 [ChrisL]
Doug: Authors would expect that
20:38:15 [ChrisL]
Simon: aaargh (scribe missed complication)
20:38:50 [ChrisL]
Dino: Style sheet trumps attribute, transform as a property also trumps it. But SMIL trumps the attributes
20:39:08 [smfr]
css transitions/animations are animating css transforms in svg, while at the same time svg animations may be animating the transform attributes
20:39:14 [ChrisL]
Erik: Use end events for transitions. Complex when they are both animating the same property
20:39:52 [ChrisL]
Chris: Animation sandwich should define that
20:40:19 [ChrisL]
Dino: Yes but if there is an animation, to or by so going from current value, and a transition fires ....
20:40:57 [ChrisL]
Chris: Current means current animated value. need to say whether a transition is an animation in that sense
20:41:25 [ChrisL]
Doug: Jack Jansen interested to simplify SMIL animation to better fit CSS
20:42:47 [ChrisL]
Dino: Suggest we leave that for now as its more about trnsitions than transforms
20:43:30 [ChrisL]
Dino: Transitions work really well with style changes, so making transforms as style helps there
20:44:22 [ChrisL]
Simon: Specifying behavior is tricky to work between smil animation and css animation. One solution is to map all css transforms down to transforms in attributes for example. So its all mapped to one value space
20:44:33 [fantasai]
fantasai has joined #fx
20:45:26 [ChrisL]
Anthony: Agree this needs to be considered, for implementors and authors, ease of authoring and also performance
20:45:44 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: pointer
20:45:44 [RRSAgent]
20:46:31 [ChrisL]
Simon: Way we treat historical html attrs like bold etc
20:47:12 [ChrisL]
20:47:31 [ChrisL]
For user agents that support CSS, the presentation attributes must be translated to corresponding CSS style rules according to rules described in Precedence of non-CSS presentational hints ([CSS2], section 6.4.4), with the additional clarification that the presentation attributes are conceptually inserted into a new author style sheet which is the first in the author style sheet collection. The presentation attributes thus will participate in the CSS2 cascade as
20:48:27 [fantasai]
20:48:29 [fantasai]
that got cut off
20:48:31 [fantasai]
20:48:32 [ChrisL]
Erik: So we would need to move the SVG transform attribute to the CSS transform property. Mostly this works but in some cases not
20:48:46 [fantasai]
the rule *is* that the attributes are inserted into a new author style sheet that is the first in the author style sheet collection
20:48:48 [ChrisL]
Erik: ref transform in SVG 1.2 is an example'Simon: right
20:48:53 [fantasai]
and that they have zero specificity
20:49:15 [fantasai]
so that all subsequent rules override the attributes
20:49:32 [fantasai]
that doesn't require any "additional" clarification, it's in the spec
20:49:45 [ChrisL]
Simon: So that aligns with Erik's option 1 in his email
20:49:50 [ChrisL]
Erik: yes
20:50:03 [fantasai]
SVG just needs to say that its attribues are handled as non-CSS presentational hints like <font face>
20:50:51 [fantasai]
also, wrt 360 normalization, I think we already decided to fix that. You just need to pester howcome about editing it into the draft
20:51:03 [fantasai]
or get someone else to edit it
20:51:09 [shepazu]
fantasai, can you join the call?
20:51:36 [fantasai]
20:51:45 [smfr]
FXTF (3983)
20:52:24 [Zakim]
20:52:41 [ChrisL]
Zakim, IPcaller is fantasai
20:52:41 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
20:52:51 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
20:52:51 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been ed, Doug_Schepers, ChrisL, anthony, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss_, +1.408.454.aabb, dino, smfr, fantasai
20:53:10 [ChrisL]
zakim, +1 858 is Peter
20:53:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+1 858 is Peter', ChrisL
20:53:23 [ChrisL]
zakim, aaaa is Peter
20:53:23 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
20:53:29 [ChrisL]
zakim, +aaaa is Peter
20:53:29 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
20:53:34 [shepazu]
zakim, +1.858 is Peter
20:53:34 [Zakim]
sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '+1.858'
20:53:41 [ChrisL]
zakim, get a grip
20:53:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'get a grip', ChrisL
20:53:46 [anthony]
zakim, 1.858 is Peter
20:53:46 [Zakim]
sorry, anthony, I do not recognize a party named '1.858'
20:54:15 [ChrisL]
ok so 858 is Peter and 408 is Anthony. Moving on .....
20:54:32 [ChrisL]
Doug: (explains recap on hints)
20:55:35 [ChrisL]
Chris (explains re legacy, hints, 1:1 mapping)
20:56:08 [ChrisL]
Elika: CSS 2.1 or CSS3 cascading can be tweaked if needed. no aditional clarification in SVG is needed
20:56:23 [fantasai]
"For other languages, all document language-based styling should be handled in the user agent style sheet. "
20:56:36 [ChrisL]
...which is wrong
20:57:07 [ChrisL]
Elika: That spec should be made more SVG freindly
20:58:05 [ChrisL]
Chris: I agree and think the wording in SVG is a condensation of my various explanations of how CSS works
20:58:45 [ChrisL]
Erik: So we agree on mapping SVG transform attr into the corresponding CSS property. So we need an explicit mapping - volunteers?
20:59:25 [ChrisL]
... rotate function with three params in svg, one in CSS because of transform-origin property
20:59:48 [ChrisL]
Dino: Or we could add rotate with three params. Try to avoid argument overloading
21:00:18 [ChrisL]
Anthony: By default rotates happen around centre of object, so does two extra values give you an offset?
21:00:35 [ChrisL]
Dino: Form the current transform origin
21:01:57 [ChrisL]
Chris (problems with current point in PostScript)
21:02:28 [ChrisL]
Simon: transform is a pre-shift and a post shift
21:02:36 [ChrisL]
Dino: Easty to add it
21:02:44 [ChrisL]
... temporary translate
21:03:22 [ChrisL]
Erik: Commas, units (not allowed in SVG). Are units mandatory?
21:03:42 [ChrisL]
Dino: Yes, except scale obviously. But yes for lengths and angles
21:04:05 [ChrisL]
... degrees default for angles
21:04:15 [ChrisL]
Dino: So want to not require commas?
21:04:25 [ChrisL]
Erik: Yes, not an issue really
21:04:36 [ChrisL]
Simon: Happy to drop requirement for commas in CSS
21:04:42 [ChrisL]
Dino: Skew?
21:04:54 [ChrisL]
Dino: We hate skew!
21:05:05 [Zakim]
21:05:09 [ed]
21:05:37 [ChrisL]
Simon: CSS happy to drop skew , or skew-x, skew-y
21:06:21 [ChrisL]
... skew with 2 params. Happy to move to what SVG does there with separate skew-x, skew-y
21:06:44 [ChrisL]
Dino: Animating skew tends to look wierd if it uses matrix
21:07:19 [ChrisL]
Resolved: Remove skew, add skew-x and skew-y
21:07:58 [ChrisL]
Erik: ref transform
21:08:01 [ed]
21:08:25 [ChrisL]
Chris: Ref lets you unwind the CTM to a different element
21:08:48 [ChrisL]
Simon: Inverse transform may be awkward on 3D if they dont share a common 3d space
21:09:51 [ChrisL]
Chris: Same if you have HTML with two SVG subtrees with different viewboxes. no common world coordinate system
21:10:31 [ChrisL]
Erik; Can only specigy svg in the syntax for the CTM
21:10:49 [shepazu]
scribeNick: shepazu
21:11:21 [shepazu]
dino: I don't see why you need transformRef in the first 2 examples...
21:12:24 [shepazu]
ed: it's for moving back to something you can control, as opposed to zooming and panning
21:13:00 [shepazu]
simon: position fixed
21:13:25 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins has joined #fx
21:13:40 [shepazu]
dino: we could put it in, but have it not apply, or have it as a translate...
21:14:21 [shepazu]
ed: not sure it makes sense in CSS
21:14:23 [shepazu]
... it would have to take precedence in some way
21:14:40 [shepazu]
dino: is this used and useful?
21:15:03 [shepazu]
ed: our implementation is slightly different than the spec
21:15:14 [ChrisL]
ScribeNick: ChrisL
21:16:02 [shepazu]
Issue: consider not adding transformRef to Transforms spec
21:16:02 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-1 - Consider not adding transformRef to Transforms spec ; please complete additional details at .
21:17:21 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Simon to remove skew and add skew-x and skew-y to consolidated transform spec
21:17:21 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Simon
21:17:38 [ChrisL]
trackbot, status?
21:17:53 [smfr]
darn :)
21:17:58 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Chris to Simon to remove skew and add skew-x and skew-y to consolidated transform spec
21:17:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2 - Simon to remove skew and add skew-x and skew-y to consolidated transform spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-03-18].
21:18:43 [dino]
my suggestion was that transform-ref should have been a separate property/attribute, rather than part of the transform
21:19:00 [ChrisL]
Chris: in retrospect I agree
21:19:22 [ChrisL]
Doug: Some parts of SVG Tiny 1.2 could be rethought in SVG 2.0
21:19:31 [dino]
for example, what does transform="ref(svg, 100, 100) .... ref(svg, 200, 200) ... " mean?
21:19:40 [dino]
21:19:51 [ChrisL]
Erik; Although its useful, and making it available through CSS transforms would be fine
21:21:11 [ChrisL]
Chris: Do we have merged specs or do we need to check in both and then work on a third?
21:21:31 [ChrisL]
Anthony; Have started a merge for transforms, but its harder than it looks
21:22:31 [ChrisL]
Chris: Best to have archival copies to refer to during the merge?
21:23:29 [ChrisL]
Dino: We currently use Bert's script to take HTML and make it pubrules compliant. Also need to redirect shortnames. Publish with new refs as soon as possible
21:23:40 [ChrisL]
Simon: And uodate CSS current work
21:23:49 [ChrisL]
Doug: And SVG wiki likewise
21:24:20 [ChrisL]
Simon: Need to know when the public FX one is the master so we can get edits done
21:24:21 [shepazu]
ACTION: Simon to remove skew and add skew-x and skew-y to consolidated transform spec
21:24:21 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Simon
21:24:30 [ChrisL]
ACTION; Doug set up an FX wiki
21:24:36 [shepazu]
ACTION: smfr to remove skew and add skew-x and skew-y to consolidated transform spec
21:24:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - smfr
21:24:57 [ChrisL]
trackbot, self.reboot()
21:24:57 [trackbot]
Sorry, ChrisL, I don't understand 'trackbot, self.reboot()'. Please refer to for help
21:25:45 [smfr]
trackbot, reload
21:26:07 [dino]
i thought there was a reload command
21:26:55 [ChrisL]
Resolution: Freeze the separate CSS and SVG specs, copy to new FX repository
21:27:21 [ChrisL]
21:27:25 [Zakim]
21:27:27 [Zakim]
21:27:28 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:27:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:27:36 [Zakim]
21:27:41 [Zakim]
21:28:03 [Zakim]
21:28:05 [Zakim]
21:28:06 [Zakim]
21:28:06 [Zakim]
GA_(Effects TF)3:00PM has ended
21:28:07 [smfr]
smfr has left #fx
21:28:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, ChrisL, anthony, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss_, +1.408.454.aabb, dino, smfr, fantasai
21:29:24 [shepazu]
ChrisL: couldn't hear you
21:29:27 [shepazu]
try again?
21:29:44 [anthony]
Issue: Need to figure out how transitions affect a transform on an element that has an animation running on it
21:29:44 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2 - Need to figure out how transitions affect a transform on an element that has an animation running on it ; please complete additional details at .
21:31:55 [bckenny]
bckenny has joined #fx
21:59:03 [fantasai]
22:01:27 [TabAtkins]
Too late for a q, fantasai; Zakim has already ended the conf.
22:06:36 [fantasai]
heh, sorry, wrong window
22:07:12 [ChrisL]
chair: Erik
22:07:16 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:07:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
23:01:23 [ted]
ted has left #fx
23:10:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #fx