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Chatlog 2011-07-14
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13:56:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 13:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-rdfa-irc 13:56:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:56:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 13:56:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 13:56:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 13:56:19 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 13:56:19 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011 13:57:32 <manu> Chair: Manu 13:57:59 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0028.html 13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius 13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet 13:57:59 <manu> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström 13:58:02 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 13:58:09 <Zakim> +??P0 13:58:19 <gkellogg> zakim, P0 is gkellogg 13:58:19 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named 'P0' 13:58:38 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P0 is gkellogg 13:58:38 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 13:58:58 <Zakim> +??P1 13:59:05 <Zakim> +??P5 13:59:10 <manu> zakim, I am ??P5 13:59:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it 13:59:17 <Zakim> +bergie 14:00:03 <Zakim> +Knud 14:00:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 14:00:09 <Zakim> +scor 14:00:14 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 14:00:15 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 14:00:34 <manu> zakim, who is on the call? 14:00:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, ??P1, manu, bergie, Knud, MacTed, scor 14:00:41 <tomayac_> tomayac_ has joined #rdfa 14:00:54 <manu> zakim, who is making noise? 14:00:55 <lindstream> zakim, ??P1 is me 14:00:55 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it 14:01:05 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gkellogg (16%), ??P1 (36%), Knud (49%), manu (100%), MacTed (24%) 14:01:11 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:01:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:01:21 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:01:21 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:01:41 <bergie> Zakim, mute me 14:01:41 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:01:58 <Steven> zakim, code? 14:01:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven 14:02:46 <manu> Any updates/changes to the agenda? 14:02:46 <manu> Topic: Announcements and News 14:02:55 <Knud> I have a quick question: is there any RDFa parser for iOS? 14:03:12 <Zakim> +Steven 14:03:13 <Knud> or something along those lines? 14:03:46 <Knud> I was thinking of writing one, then 14:04:37 <manu> You could use: https://github.com/msporny/librdfa 14:04:37 <Knud> Yeah, I know librdfa - but if I want to implement the RDFa API on top of it, I'd rather have my own RDFa parser implementation 14:04:52 <Knud> I'm not promising anything. :) 14:04:58 <MacTed> I haven't tested ... but ODE may already do, and should be portable from base Mac OS X if not... 14:04:58 <Knud> just a toy project for me... I'll check out ODE 14:05:38 <Steven> Scribe: Steven 14:06:06 <manu> http://80legs.com/ 14:06:30 <MacTed> Knud - just tested... iOS Safari won't download/install extension, so not yet. I'll make sure that's put on our roadmap. 14:06:55 <Steven> Manu: We need better data to analyze RDFa usage in the wild. Google, Yahoo and the other search companies, while helpful, are difficult to get raw data from. 80legs.com could help us crawl the entire web and get raw usage data to analyze. We would, of course, make all of the raw data public. 14:07:32 <Steven> ... we are thinking of working with 80legs to get data about RDFa, Microdata, and Microformats usage 14:07:59 <Steven> ... so that we can defend some of our positions, or otherwise find out that we have been wrong about some of our positions and fix the spec if necessary. 14:08:17 <Steven> ... and as a basic input for the RDFa/Microdata task force so that they're making decisions based on real-world data and not what we /think/ Web developers are doing out in the wild. 14:09:10 <Steven> Manu: I've been talking to people that work at browser companies, trying to get feedback 14:09:27 <Steven> ... about what changes they would like to see in RDFa to make them happy 14:09:31 <Steven> ... they have been very willing to talk, which is a good sign 14:09:54 <Steven> ... so some recent bugs filed against RDFa are a result of those discussions 14:10:57 <Steven> Niklas: A lot don't know what they are going to do with the RDFa data yet, which leads to them not understanding why we have it in the first place. 14:11:12 <Steven> ... from my point of view, it's about publishing more data than we've got today 14:11:37 <Steven> Niklas: And they don't know why we want the data there 14:11:47 <Steven> Manu: Robert Nyman? 14:11:55 <Steven> Niklas: Yes, Mozilla and Firefox guy 14:12:05 <Steven> Manu: Should we talk with them? 14:12:27 <Steven> Niklas: I haven't spent a lot of time doing that yet, but I'm thinking of doing more 14:12:57 <Steven> Manu: They say that they don't need it, but at the same time they say they like Microdata - so there is some cognitive dissonance here. 14:13:26 <Steven> Niklas: They don't grok why we need the graphs of RDFa 14:13:48 <Steven> Manu: They don't want to negatively impact browser performance for the benefit of, what they perceive to be, a small audience. We hope the audience will grow over time, but it would be a shame for the browsers to integrate some heavy stuff into the browser and then find out that RDFa is not successful. Cruft lasts a very long time in the browser world. 14:15:00 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-96: Document not ready 14:15:07 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/96 14:17:05 <Steven> Manu: Which direction should we go with this? 14:17:08 <gkellogg> q+ 14:17:08 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me 14:17:09 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted 14:17:12 <bergie> +q 14:17:33 <Steven> Greg: Doing a callback is my preference 14:17:40 <manu> ack gkellogg 14:18:07 <lindstream> q+ 14:18:20 <manu> ack bergie 14:18:21 <Steven> Henri: CLient-side js people are familiar with event model, so I would bind to a ready event of some kind, or a similar event; don't bother with ready signals for a particular resource 14:18:22 <bergie> Zakim, mute me 14:18:22 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:18:29 <Steven> sNiklas: I prefer callback 14:18:33 <Steven> s/sN/ 14:18:39 <Steven> s/iklas/Niklas/ 14:19:12 <Steven> Manu: An RDFa doc can have miltiple profiles. Processing can be done ignoring a subtree for a profile that can't be fetched 14:19:20 <Steven> ... just one event is difficult 14:19:33 <Steven> s/CL/Cl/ 14:19:50 <Steven> ... so how do we address one of 5 profiles not loading? 14:19:53 <lindstream> q+ 14:19:56 <Steven> s/ing/ing?/ 14:19:59 <manu> ack lindstream 14:21:09 <Steven> Niklas: We don't have to resolve the profiles immediately, we could delay resolution until we need to turn it into RDFa. 14:21:26 <Steven> Manu: So, what you're saying is that the only time the profile needs to be loaded is when we are trying to do something RDF-like with the data? We could just use the terms displayed in the page? 14:21:34 <Steven> s/data/data?/ 14:21:34 <gkellogg> q+ 14:21:41 <manu> ack gkellogg 14:21:48 <Steven> Greg: That comes down to a usage model 14:22:07 <Steven> ... if the app knows what it needs. But doesn't get round needing to know when you can process 14:22:39 <Steven> ... we can't get away from needing that feedback. We need to dereference the profiles at some point. 14:22:59 <Steven> Manu: So we could have a callback that gives a map of the profiles and whether they have loaded 14:23:08 <Steven> Gregg: That would do it 14:23:33 <Steven> ... it's easier to have a second callback saying when all profiles have been loaded 14:23:35 <lindstream> q+ 14:23:48 <manu> ack lindstream 14:23:54 <Steven> ... knowing about failures could be useful 14:24:04 <manu> q+ 14:24:51 <Steven> Manu: We could do the same with an event, it's about the parameter passed with event or callback 14:25:00 <tomayac> is it a good idea to decouple profile(s) loaded and document loaded events? wouldn't fine-grained error reporting be better? => e.g. profile x timeout 14:25:07 <Steven> ... but one event/callback for each profile would require the developer to keep track of which ones loaded successfully and which ones didn't. 14:25:15 <Steven> ... by the app writer 14:25:23 <Steven> q+ 14:25:28 <Steven> ack m 14:25:47 <manu> ack manu 14:26:07 <manu> Steven: Sounds like you need an event to say they've all been done, and one error event if one of them fails. 14:26:15 <Steven> ack me 14:26:21 <tomayac> so you'd have an event dataloaded or whatever with fine-grained success/failre states 14:26:49 <tomayac> s/failre/failure/ 14:27:25 <tomayac> then +1 for doing it the XForms way, Steven ;-) 14:27:28 <lindstream> q+ 14:27:31 <Steven> Manu: Are we talking about the processor writer using these events in JavaScript, or the webdeveloper knowing that the RDFa data is ready? I think we want the latter. 14:27:37 <Steven> Niklas: The latter 14:27:38 <manu> ack lindstream 14:28:01 <Steven> ... I agree with an evet/callback saying everything is ready 14:28:10 <Steven> ... progress reoprting is not so important 14:28:17 <Steven> s/reop/repo/ 14:28:41 <Steven> Manu: So maybe an event and a callback, event is RDFa-data-ready, the callback is an error callback 14:29:10 <Steven> ... does that cover it? 14:29:25 <Steven> [voice]: I think so 14:29:39 <bergie> Sounds good 14:30:10 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me 14:30:10 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted 14:30:26 <manu> s/[voice]/Niklas/ 14:30:27 <Steven> Henri: Sounds good. Keep things simple. 14:30:43 <tomayac> document.ondataready(event) 14:31:08 <bergie> Zakim, mute me 14:31:08 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:31:14 <tomayac> similar to document.onload 14:31:16 <Steven> ... try running VIE editing environment on top of RDFa API, would be a good test case 14:31:33 <lindstream> q+ 14:31:33 <Steven> Manu: Some like the microdata API because there is only one event 14:31:38 <Steven> s/event/call/ 14:31:40 <bergie> link to VIE for those who haven't seen it: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme 14:33:10 <Steven> Niklas: One remark, using profiles we don't need to use URIs, but the mapping is awkward for developers 14:34:51 <Steven> Manu: So maybe we need a "getraw" for the attribute as used in the page 14:35:01 <Steven> zakim, agenda? 14:35:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:35:02 <Zakim> 1. ISSUE-96: Document not ready [from Steven] 14:35:03 <Zakim> 2. Graph.toArray() list order [from Steven] 14:35:05 <Zakim> 3. Live NodeLists and Graphs [from Steven] 14:35:36 <Steven> scor: So @profile is a new feature; why not have the default profile in the spec, and no other profile at all. 14:35:52 <Steven> ... what is the real benefit of profiles? 14:36:16 <Steven> Manu: The one big use case is microformats 14:36:25 <gkellogg> q+ 14:36:33 <Steven> ... the other is for people who don't like CURIES 14:36:58 <manu> ack lindstream 14:36:59 <Steven> scor: Well, they can define the vocab inline 14:37:02 <manu> ack gkellogg 14:37:43 <Steven> Greg: Microformats work with a profile with an NCNAME 14:37:57 <Steven> ... maybe we can provide those as standard 14:38:03 <Steven> q+ 14:38:30 <manu> ack Steven 14:38:43 <manu> Steven: The reason profiles are there are to provide an extension mechanism. 14:39:00 <manu> q+ 14:39:09 <Steven> ack m 14:39:37 <manu> ack manu 14:39:41 <Steven> Manu: Good discussion, revisiting some of these decisions. Stephane made a good point, that most of the profile use cases could be addressed with @vocab 14:40:16 <Steven> ... but vocabulary mixing wouldn't work 14:40:32 <Steven> ... but you could just use prefixing 14:40:44 <lindstream> q+ 14:41:28 <Steven> Niklas: I see the value in that. I thought of profiles as vocabs with mixing at a direct level. That use case might be small, and then you could use prefixes 14:41:49 <manu> ack lindstream 14:42:17 <Steven> Manu: So you suppotr removing @profile? 14:42:22 <Steven> s/potr/port/ 14:42:38 <Steven> Niklas: Not sure. I like @profile 14:43:43 <Steven> Manu: People were wondering why we were using URLs to identify everything. 14:44:09 <Steven> ... they suggested using a default profile, wioth registering prefixes at the profile 14:44:21 <Steven> q+ 14:44:28 <Steven> s/wio/wi 14:44:36 <Steven> ... a registery 14:44:38 <bergie> q+ 14:44:44 <lindstream> q+ 14:44:46 <Steven> s/registery/registry 14:44:57 <manu> ack Steven 14:45:40 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me 14:45:40 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted 14:45:42 <manu> ack bergie 14:45:48 <Steven> Steven: The idea is to give freedom, not asking people to register. It's like asking people to register class names 14:45:53 <Steven> Niklas: I second that 14:46:13 <Steven> ... people can use the ontology they feel like 14:46:29 <gkellogg> q+ 14:46:36 <Knud> could we have both: a registry _and_ a local prefixing mechanism? 14:46:40 <Steven> ... I'm strongly against registering 14:46:44 <bergie> Zakim, mute me 14:46:44 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:46:48 <manu> ack lindstream 14:46:57 <Steven> s/Niklas/Henri/ 14:47:04 <Steven> Niklas: I support Steven and Henri on this 14:47:36 <MacTed> centralized registries are trouble 14:47:36 <Knud> a registry could help 80% of the big name use cases, the local prefixing could help the rest? 14:47:41 <manu> ack gkellogg 14:47:44 <MacTed> q+ 14:47:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 14:47:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 14:47:57 <Steven> Greg: @profile is a complication in an implementation 14:48:06 <Steven> ... we should think about removing it 14:48:20 <Steven> ... @prefix does address the use cases 14:48:30 <manu> ack MacTed 14:48:57 <Steven> Ted: Centralised registries are always problematic. Doomed 14:49:09 <Steven> ... RDFa is succesful because it is not centralised 14:49:15 <Steven> s/sf/ssf/ 14:49:29 <Steven> q+ 14:49:56 <Steven> ... eventually we should think about getting rid of prefixing 14:50:07 <gkellogg> q+ 14:50:10 <Steven> Manu: Is that an argument for @profile 14:50:13 <Steven> Ted: Not sure 14:50:35 <Steven> Ted: Ultimate solution is doc to be fully expanded at delivery 14:50:50 <Steven> Steven: I disagree with that point of view 14:51:22 <manu> ack Steven 14:52:09 <manu> q+ 14:52:26 <Steven> Ted: Shorthand gets in the way of knowing what the fully expanded form is 14:52:48 <Steven> Steven: I think that is anti-author 14:53:05 <Steven> ... writing the full form URIs would be awful 14:53:08 <manu> ack gkellogg 14:53:34 <Steven> Greg: Some of the copy-paste issues could be addressed at the top-level 14:53:35 <Steven> q+ 14:53:37 <Steven> q- 14:53:42 <Steven> q+ on copy paste 14:54:06 <Steven> Greg: There is something to be said for things that are easy to read 14:54:12 <Steven> ... full URIs are a nightmare 14:54:15 <lindstream> q+ 14:54:20 <bergie> bergie has joined #rdfa 14:54:26 <Steven> ... CURIEs are elegant in comparison 14:55:13 <Steven> Manu: I don't think Ted and Steven are saying different things; I think the transformation can happen at a different layer. Perhaps the author uses CURIEs to author, but the authoring software or the web server expands all CURIEs to full IRIs before they go out. 14:55:33 <manu> ack manu 14:55:50 <Steven> Ted: Where it happens is up to a lot of things 14:56:00 <Steven> ... you may not have control over the webserver 14:56:36 <Steven> ... there are multiple stages where these things matter 14:56:56 <Steven> ... who pays? The author, the end user, the programmer? 14:57:15 <Steven> ... The ugliness should be hidden from the enduser 14:57:24 <manu> ack Steven 14:57:25 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to comment on copy paste 14:58:02 <manu> Steven: I've always thought that the copy-paste problem was a bit of a red herring - I've never had problems with it myself - people that copy/paste tend to work in the same areas 14:58:12 <manu> Steven: if copy-paste is an issue, then authoring in general is an issue. 14:58:25 <manu> Steven: I don't think it's a big issue. 14:58:27 <manu> q+ 14:58:36 <Zakim> -scor 14:58:37 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdfa 14:58:39 <Steven> Niklas: CURIES are one way to make things easier, @profile can help too 14:59:33 <Steven> Manu: So profiles can be used to ease authoring and consumption by the browser? 14:59:38 <manu> ack manu 14:59:39 <Steven> Niklas: Possibly 14:59:44 <manu> ack lindstream 15:00:05 <Steven> Manu: can someone raise these issues on the mailing list to get some feedback? 15:00:14 <Steven> ... such as proposing removing @profile 15:00:20 <MacTed> I have to jump to another call... 15:00:37 <Steven> ... restricting @prefix to toplevel 15:00:54 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:00:55 <Steven> ]Manu: removing prefixes no one likes, but perhaps it's worth raising 15:01:05 <Steven> s/]// 15:01:11 <Steven> Greg: I'll do removing @profile 15:01:28 <Steven> Manu: I'll do restricting @prefix to head 15:01:41 <Steven> ... and removing prefix altogether 15:01:44 <Steven> s/[// 15:02:20 <Steven> Topic: Any other business? 15:02:39 <Steven> Steven: Enquire using doodle about coming meetings? 15:02:43 <Steven> Manu: I'll do that 15:02:45 <Steven> ADJOURN 15:02:53 <bergie> bye 15:03:20 <gkellogg> s/Greg/Gregg/ 15:03:27 <Zakim> -Steven 15:03:29 <Zakim> -manu 15:03:31 <Zakim> -gkellogg 15:03:36 <Zakim> -Knud # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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