Chatlog 2011-05-05

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13:58:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:58:44 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:58:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:58:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:58:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:49 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:58:49 <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2011
13:58:56 <manu> Agenda:
13:58:59 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:59:10 <manu> Present: Ivan, Ted, Nathan, Benjamin, Manu, ShaneM, Knud
13:59:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:00:04 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aaaa
14:00:10 <ShaneM> zakim, I am aaaa
14:00:10 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:00:23 <Zakim> +??P16
14:00:26 <manu> zakim, I am ??P16
14:00:26 <Zakim> +manu; got it
14:00:50 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa
14:01:06 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb
14:01:20 <Knud> zakim, I am +aabb
14:01:20 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named '+aabb'
14:01:24 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
14:01:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
14:01:30 <Zakim> +??P25
14:01:41 <Knud> zakim, I am aabb
14:01:41 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:01:42 <Zakim> +Kingsley_Idehen
14:01:49 <MacTed> Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software
14:01:50 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
14:01:56 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:01:56 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:01:56 <Benjamin> zakim, i am +??P25
14:01:56 <Zakim> sorry, Benjamin, I do not see a party named '+??P25'
14:02:16 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
14:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, manu, Knud, ??P25, MacTed
14:02:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see Benjamin, Zakim, RRSAgent, Knud, ShaneM, MacTed, danbri, manu, ivan, webr3, manu1, trackbot
14:02:20 <Knud> zakim, mute me
14:02:20 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
14:02:22 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
14:02:23 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?
14:02:33 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (14%), manu (22%), ??P25 (75%)
14:02:43 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: manu (15%), MacTed (19%), ??P25 (48%)
14:02:47 <MacTed> Zakim, ??p25 is Benjamin
14:02:47 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
14:03:00 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
14:03:00 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
14:03:16 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:03:18 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:04:07 <manu> Scribe: Knud
14:04:21 <manu> scribenick: Knud
14:05:18 <Knud> Manu: PaySwarm developer sandbox going live today - depends heavily on RDFa and JSON-LD:
14:05:22 <manu> Sandbox demo details available here:
14:05:39 <Zakim> +??P36
14:05:58 <webr3> zakim, i am ??p36
14:05:58 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
14:06:51 <manu> Topic: Publish the RDF Interfaces spec as a FPWD
14:07:06 <webr3> ->
14:07:16 <Knud> Nathan giving update of latest changes, reflecting feedback from RDF Web Apps community and WG members
14:07:26 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:07:26 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:07:27 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:07:41 <Zakim> -Benjamin
14:07:44 <Knud> Nathan: small changes based on feedback
14:07:53 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:07:53 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:08:13 <Zakim> +??P43
14:08:23 <Benjamin> zakim, i am ??P43
14:08:23 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
14:08:30 <Zakim> -Ivan
14:08:35 <Benjamin> zakim, who is making noise?
14:08:46 <Zakim> Benjamin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: manu (28%), webr3 (20%), Benjamin (89%)
14:08:48 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
14:08:49 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
14:09:20 <Knud> Nathan: is "property" a keyword in python?
14:09:29 <Knud> Ivan: no, it's not, no problem to use it
14:09:56 <manu>
14:09:57 <Knud> Nathan: "property" currently changed to "predicate"
14:10:34 <Knud> ivan: can't see property keyword in official documentation of python
14:10:57 <Knud> Ivan: maybe python 3...
14:11:38 <ivan>
14:11:45 <Knud> manu: anyway, we can publish now and change it later, if we have to
14:11:47 <webr3> -> 2.7
14:12:27 <webr3> what would we prefer? .property or .predicate
14:12:47 <Knud> ivan: if 2.7 doesn't have property keyword, then 2.4 doesn't either
14:13:08 <manu>
14:13:17 <Knud> manu: "property" is a built-in function
14:13:51 <Knud> manu: do we want to change the spec for this?
14:15:06 <Knud> manu: in past discussions, we noted that some people have a problem with the term "predicate"
14:15:42 <webr3> i can't see anybody who's going to be using or implementing this API having a problem with 'predicate' (personally)
14:16:22 <Knud> ivan: predicate or property won't make a big difference for RDF community
14:16:37 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:16:37 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:16:52 <webr3> property = rdf predicates and html rels - joined
14:17:43 <Knud> ivan: "property" for an RDFa person might have a restricted meaning, because of we have @property and @rel
14:18:59 <Knud> ted: "attribute" might be universally understood
14:19:03 <webr3> +1 predicate
14:19:53 <Knud> Manu: any concerns for publishing the spec as FPWD?
14:20:23 <Knud> Ivan: no - whatever we handle today, we handle today. The rest can be in the next version of the spec
14:21:03 <webr3> RDFNode.value is an issue
14:21:47 <Knud> Ivan: RDFNode.value naming is still under debate
14:22:37 <Knud> Ivan: name, lexicalValueare possibilities, but we didn't really like any of them 
14:23:22 <Knud> Manu: maybe use lexicalValue temporarily, see if community is happy with it?
14:24:12 <Knud> Ted: still missing an explicit warning that this whole spec might still change a lot
14:24:25 <Knud> Ivan: even though it is already labelled "working draft"
14:25:43 <Knud> ivan: however, the overall structure is pretty stable
14:26:02 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:26:02 <Knud> manu: were triplesets taken out entirely?
14:26:07 <Knud> nathan: yes, they were
14:27:38 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:27:41 <Knud> ivan: there could be text saying that "RDF WG is working on graph naming - this might find its way into this spec also"
14:27:45 <Knud> manu: I'd prefer that we tell people that we intend to put in graph naming / graph literals / g-boxes / whatever RDF WG ends up calling them.
14:28:51 <manu> PROPOSAL: Publish the RDF Interfaces as a FPWD, including changes discussed today, with a short-name of rdf-interfaces, with a target publication date of May 10th 2011.
14:28:54 <ivan> +1
14:28:57 <webr3> +1
14:28:58 <manu> +1
14:28:58 <Benjamin> +1
14:29:00 <Knud> Knud: +1
14:29:13 <Knud> Shane: +1
14:29:28 <MacTed> +1
14:29:41 <manu> RESOLVED: Publish the RDF Interfaces as a FPWD, including changes discussed today, with a short-name of rdf-interfaces, with a target publication date of May 10th 2011.
14:30:56 <webr3> q+ to say oops, may be a problem with lexicalValue
14:31:02 <ivan> q+
14:31:07 <Knud> manu: 2nd last call exited without any major criticism
14:31:09 <manu> ack webr3
14:31:09 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to say oops, may be a problem with lexicalValue
14:32:02 <Knud> nathan: "lexicalValue" not good choice for b-nodes
14:33:01 <Knud> nathan: how about keeping "value" and "valueOf", as it is now?
14:33:08 <Knud> ivan: no, that's too misleading
14:34:28 <Knud> (lots of ideas being thrown around)
14:34:34 <Knud> manu: nominalValue?
14:34:42 <Knud> ivan: hm, not bad
14:35:53 <Knud> ivan: maybe put an issue in the document to indicate that this term might change
14:36:23 <Zakim> -McCarron
14:36:38 <manu> ISSUE: Figure out a word to use when referring to the 'value' of a RDFNode
14:36:38 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-95 - Figure out a word to use when referring to the 'value' of a RDFNode ; please complete additional details at .
14:36:45 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:37:13 <ivan> q+
14:37:25 <manu> ack ivan
14:37:34 <Knud> Topic: Scheduling RDFa Core and XHTML+RDFa Candidate Recommendation
14:37:54 <Knud> manu: any preference as to the order of publishing these and the RDF API
14:38:31 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:38:56 <Benjamin>
14:39:08 <Knud> ivan: we should be careful about this. We should publish all parts of the API (RDF API, RDFa API, RDF Interfaces) together.
14:39:34 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me
14:39:34 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted
14:39:58 <Knud> Benjamin: document has been cleaned and updated
14:41:24 <Knud> manu: some things still need to be done
14:41:51 <webr3> I can do FPWD for interfaces any-time, I've just made all the changes bar adding a note about graph identifiers - can help benjamin w/ rdf-api from tomorrow if that helps
14:41:51 <Knud> Manu: I think we should really reserve two weeks for this
14:43:16 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me
14:43:16 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted
14:44:17 <Knud> Ivan: why not publish as FPWD as soon as possible, with the caveat that some issues might still need to be resolved afterwards
14:44:33 <Knud> manu: let's see where we stand in a week
14:45:34 <Knud> manu: some issues need to be handled still for RDFa Core Candidate Rec
14:45:43 <ShaneM> 'the w3c tax'
14:46:32 <Knud> Manu: IRI vs URI, CURIE/URI value space collision, fragment id comment from TAG
14:46:56 <webr3> iirc - both of those have equiv issues open on the RDF WG too
14:48:01 <Knud> ivan: CURIE/URI value space collision problem seems to be the one that really needs work
14:50:41 <Knud> manu: benjamin and nathan and ivan will work on RDF API FPWD for next week or the week after
14:52:01 <Knud> shane: can we have optional test cases for @role?
14:52:06 <Knud> manu: yes, we can do that
14:52:41 <Zakim> -webr3
14:52:43 <Knud> manu: you can commit test cases via github - manu, ivan, and gregg are the contact points for access rights
14:52:49 <Knud> manu: Ok, so the plan is for Nathan and Benjamin to work on the RDF API spec and get it in shape for FPWD by next week or the week after. Shane will update RDFa Core and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 for CR while the WG members work on resolving all of the remaining 2nd LC issues.
14:53:22 <manu> Topic: CURIEorURI Value Space Collisions
14:53:27 <manu>
14:53:53 <manu> Niklas Lindström says "The Working Group should consider whether or not CURIEs should be further restricted in order to not conflict with future Internet protocol schemes."
14:54:00 <manu> "For instance, not allowing CURIEs in that space to use anything after the prefix+':' other than say an isegment-nz-nc from RFC 3987, or something to that effect (like a "[A-Za-z0-9_-.]+" regexp)."
14:54:23 <Knud> ivan: sounds like a very rare problem
14:55:24 <ivan> what about - db:resource/RRR
14:56:43 <manu> We could create a CURIE pattern that rejects anything that starts w/ *:// - that is a URL
14:56:54 <manu> so this is a URL under the new pattern? foo:// 
14:57:20 <manu> however, it fails to protect us against this:
14:58:32 <manu>
15:03:30 <Zakim> -Knud
15:05:13 <MacTed> ACTION: manu to respond to Niklas about ISSUE-90 - backwards compat issues, Shane's response and dbpedia example.
15:05:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Respond to Niklas about ISSUE-90 - backwards compat issues, Shane's response and dbpedia example. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-12].
15:05:20 <MacTed> RRSAgent, forget action 1
15:05:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'forget action 1', MacTed.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:05:23 <Benjamin> bye
15:05:25 <Zakim> -manu
15:05:25 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:05:26 <MacTed> RRSAgent, drop action 1