Chatlog 2011-02-24

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14:50:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:50:39 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:50:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:50:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
14:50:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:44 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:50:44 <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2011
14:57:10 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
14:57:44 <manu1> Agenda:
14:57:59 <manu1> Chair: Manu
14:59:48 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:59:56 <Zakim> +??P13
14:59:58 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P13
14:59:59 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
15:00:06 <Zakim> +Benjamin
15:00:36 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:00:36 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:00:37 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:36 <Zakim> +??P17
15:03:23 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:03:32 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
15:03:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu1, Benjamin, Ivan, ??P17
15:03:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Steven, Zakim, RRSAgent, Benjamin, ivan, tinkster, manu1, webr3, manu, trackbot
15:03:39 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P17 is ShaneM
15:03:39 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:04:14 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu1, Benjamin, Ivan, ShaneM
15:04:29 <manu1> Present: Benjamin, Ivan, Manu, MarkB, Shane, Steven
15:04:29 <manu1> Regrets: Toby
15:05:31 <Steven> zakim, call steven-617
15:05:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:05:33 <Zakim> +Steven
15:05:56 <Benjamin> scribe: Benjamin
15:06:15 <manu1> Topic: HTML WG ISSUE-120 Coordination
15:06:40 <manu1>
15:06:56 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:07:05 <Benjamin> manu: Ivan, Toby, and I have updated the proposal with all of our argumentation and it is ready for the vote in HTML WG during the first week of March 2011. There will most likely be a W3C vote on whether or not to remove prefixes and CURIEs from HTML+RDFa.
15:07:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:07:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck
15:07:28 <Benjamin> ... modulo minor fixes to the prose, we think we have done all that we can before the vote.
15:08:00 <Zakim> +??P5
15:08:07 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:08:07 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:09:34 <manu1> Topic: Preparation for 2nd Last Call
15:09:54 <Benjamin> manu: I believe that we have discussed all of the last call issues
15:10:23 <Benjamin> ... does anybody know unadressed issues?
15:10:41 <ivan> (deep silence...)
15:10:51 <manu1>
15:10:53 <Benjamin> ... nobody knows of any 
15:11:11 <ivan> s/knos/knows/
15:11:11 <Steven> Yep.
15:11:28 <Steven> I will send my mails tonight or tomorrow a.m.
15:13:04 <Benjamin> manu: Shane can you give a status on your issues?
15:14:27 <Benjamin> shane: Issue 70 is still outstanding
15:15:02 <Benjamin> Steven: Will send my responses to my issues later today or tonight.
15:17:52 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:17:52 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:18:39 <ivan> shane, is there anything waiting on me for the document?
15:18:46 <Benjamin> shane: Implemented changes on RDFa Core and XHTML+RDFa documents
15:19:45 <Benjamin> shane: You can point to a live version of a spec in last call responses
15:20:43 <Benjamin> manu: we should ask previous reviewers to review the changed specs before we start the second last call
15:21:40 <Benjamin> shane: I could make two versions of the specs, one for us to review by next week. The second draft will be shown to the community (and previous reviewers) - folks will review before we enter 2nd last call just to make sure there are no surprises.
15:21:59 <Benjamin> manu: anything else we need to be aware of before the 2nd last call?
15:22:07 <Benjamin> silence
15:22:17 <manu1> Topic: RDF and RDFa API next steps
15:22:37 <ivan> q+
15:23:19 <ivan> ack ivan
15:23:20 <manu1> ack ivan
15:23:29 <Benjamin> manu: Maybe we should invite other people that are familiar with web developements and RDF for working on the RDFa API, RDF API topics 
15:24:16 <ShaneM> just to be clear - I will also turn up.  I just might not add much value.
15:24:37 <Benjamin> shane will contribute less to the APIs
15:25:07 <Benjamin> Steven: will contribute less to the APIs
15:25:45 <Benjamin> Benjamin: I am interested in contributing to the APIs
15:26:24 <Benjamin> markbirbeck:  I am interested in contributing to the APIs We should also invite Python programmers to contribute.
15:26:55 <Benjamin> ivan: Our emphasis should be on web development, JavaScript people
15:28:13 <Benjamin> manu: We should take into account RDF in JSON activities in RDF Working Group when working on the APIs - we want the RDF API, RDFa API and the RDF in JSON work to mesh well together. We must make sure that terminology between the specs matches up.
15:29:36 <Benjamin> ivan: I will try to invite Thomas Steiner to join us
15:32:06 <Benjamin> manu: We should try to contact other people, after the charter is accepted
15:33:20 <Benjamin> manu: anything else about high level issues on the RDFa API?
15:33:25 <Benjamin> silence
15:33:16 <manu1> Topic: RDFa API Review
15:33:46 <Benjamin> manu: Any missing features or bugs?
15:34:10 <manu1>
15:35:23 <Benjamin> manu: we have to discuss property groups and projections a bit more
15:35:41 <Benjamin> manu: especially work on terminology
15:36:43 <Benjamin> markbirbeck: I took nearly all projection-related things from SPARQL
15:37:02 <Benjamin> ivan: Should we refer to SPARQL instead of defining it ourself
15:37:19 <Benjamin> mark: it is more conceptually related
15:38:52 <Benjamin> ivan: Mark, you defined a subset of sparql in the RDFa API, maybe we should use and refer to the terms of SPARQL then.
15:39:47 <Benjamin> ivan: this might minimize our own work
15:41:25 <Benjamin> manu: we have to check details on projections if it is possible to map it to SPARQL specifications
15:42:18 <Benjamin> ivan: We should define our query patterns in a TURTLE like syntax -- that is close to SPARQL
15:43:20 <Benjamin> manu: The use of SPARQL might confuse web developers
15:44:05 <Benjamin> ivan: we should focus on use the simple parts of SPARQL in our approach.
15:44:44 <Benjamin> markbirbeck: My idea was to query with a JSON structure and syntax.
15:46:28 <Benjamin> ivan: We should not put complex SPARQL features such as optionals to our query approach
15:46:28 <markbirbeck> "?s"
15:46:34 <markbirbeck> "Ivan"
15:46:42 <markbirbeck> add(a, b)
15:47:48 <Benjamin> ivan: we should not provide features such as UNION, OPTIONAL, SUBSELECT
15:48:47 <Benjamin> manu: We should further discuss on querying objects in the RDFa API
15:49:59 <Benjamin> ivan: There is a similarity between TURTLE syntax and SPARQL patterns. Now there is an emerging JSON serialization of RDF, and our JSON related query features.
15:50:19 <Benjamin> ... both, TURTLE syntax and JSON syntax should be allowed
15:51:33 <Benjamin> TOPIC: RDF API Review
15:51:40 <manu1>
15:52:20 <Benjamin> manu: The prose describing design criteria and lots of examples are missing
15:53:15 <Benjamin> ... Nathan and I want a more generalized graph mechanism than RDF allows.
15:54:01 <Benjamin> ... these graphs may not be serializable in RDF/XML - we have to coordinate with the RDF working group
15:55:06 <Benjamin> ivan: A generalized graph mechanism is out of scope for the RDF Working Group, as is using blank nodes in predicates, or literals as subjects.
15:56:21 <Benjamin> ivan: However, a number of RDF environments already provide such generalized graph mechanisms.
15:59:17 <Benjamin> ivan: Often intermediate steps in these systems use versions of graphs that are also not serializable, e.g., for supporting reasoning. When serializing the graph, the generalized graph mechanism are ignored.
16:00:11 <Benjamin> ivan: It is not a problem to let serializers be silent on generalized graph mechanisms - so that may not be a big issue.
16:00:37 <Benjamin> ivan: Graph literals are heaviliy discussed at the moment so we should skip them
16:01:09 <Benjamin> q+
16:01:35 <manu1> ack benjamin
16:01:49 <manu1> Benjamin: We should also solve the issue of Term and Prefix maps
16:02:54 <Benjamin> ivan: Why are these maps on the API level
16:04:00 <Benjamin> manu: they make programming easier as they save code.
16:04:22 <manu1> q+ to end the telecon
16:04:41 <Benjamin> manu: JS developers want to use terms more than prefixes.
16:05:04 <Steven> I sent my last call replies, by the way
16:05:13 <Zakim> -Steven
16:05:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:18:18 <Benjamin> zakim, make minutes
16:18:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Benjamin
16:18:50 <Zakim> -manu1
16:18:51 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:18:59 <ivan> zakim, drop me
16:18:59 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
16:19:00 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:19:03 <Zakim> -Benjamin
16:19:04 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
16:19:05 <Zakim> Attendees were manu1, Benjamin, Ivan, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck