Chatlog 2011-01-20

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15:01:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:01:52 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:01:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
15:01:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now
15:01:57 <tinkster> Zakim, who is here?
15:01:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
15:01:57 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2011
15:01:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, tinkster
15:01:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, Knud, tinkster, ShaneM, Steven, trackbot, ivan, webr3, markbirbeck, manu1, manu
15:02:13 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:25 <tinkster> Zakim, who is here?
15:02:25 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, tinkster
15:02:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, Knud, tinkster, ShaneM, Steven, trackbot, ivan, webr3, markbirbeck, manu1, manu
15:02:38 <Benjamin> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, Benjamin
15:02:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, Knud, tinkster, ShaneM, Steven, trackbot, ivan, webr3, markbirbeck, manu1, manu
15:03:29 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me
15:03:29 <Zakim> sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:33 <manu1> Agenda:
15:03:35 <manu1> Chair: Manu
15:03:35 <manu1> Present: Benjamin, Ivan, Knud, Manu, Nathan, Shane, Steven, Toby
15:03:38 <tinkster> Zakim, this is RDFA
15:03:38 <Zakim> ok, tinkster; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM
15:03:42 <tinkster> I can scribe.
15:03:43 <manu1> Scribe: Toby
15:03:51 <tinkster> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, +44.123.456.aaaa, +47.85.583.aacc, Ivan, ??P31, +3539149aadd
15:03:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Benjamin, Knud, tinkster, ShaneM, Steven, trackbot, ivan, webr3, markbirbeck, manu1, manu
15:04:06 <manu1> zakim, I am aadd
15:04:08 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
15:04:09 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:04:09 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:11 <tinkster> Zakim, aacc is me
15:04:11 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:11 <Zakim> +tinkster; got it
15:04:29 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me
15:04:29 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
15:04:33 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, +44.123.456.aaaa, tinkster (muted), Ivan, ??P31, manu1, Steven
15:04:51 <Steven> zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:56 <Knud> zakim, I am aadd
15:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named 'aadd'
15:05:01 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (9%), ??P31 (62%), Ivan (21%), manu1 (40%)
15:05:04 <tinkster> Manu: any adjustments to agenda?
15:06:41 <Zakim> +??P32
15:06:42 <tinkster> Shane: role attribute module is in Last Call. Someone should respond to it, but it shouldn't be me, as I'm the principle author!
15:06:48 <webr3> Zakim, I am ??
15:06:48 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not see a party named '??'
15:06:53 <webr3> Zakim, I am ??P32
15:06:53 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
15:06:59 <tinkster> Toby: I'll review it.
15:07:05 <manu1> ACTION: Toby to review the @role specification.
15:07:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Review the @role specification. [on Toby Inkster - due 2011-01-27].
15:08:14 <tinkster> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:08:24 <Zakim> tinkster, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ivan (15%), manu1 (54%)
15:08:36 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:08:36 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:08:37 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:08:52 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:08:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:08:54 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:08:56 <Zakim> -??P31
15:09:04 <Steven> zakim, who is making noise?
15:09:11 <Benjamin> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM, +44.123.456.aaaa, tinkster (muted), Ivan, manu1, Steven, webr3
15:09:15 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (39%), webr3 (8%), manu1 (53%), Ivan (24%)
15:09:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:09:35 <Benjamin> zakim, I am aaaa
15:09:35 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
15:09:42 <Knud> zakim, I am aadd
15:09:42 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named 'aadd'
15:09:51 <Steven> zakim, manu is Knud
15:09:51 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
15:10:58 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-63: Case-insensitive term matching
15:10:58 <tinkster> Manu: let's get started - ISSUE-63.
15:10:59 <manu1>
15:10:08 <Zakim> -Knud
15:10:35 <tinkster> Shane: Didn't Manu propose a solution to this?
15:10:56 <Zakim> +Knud
15:11:02 <Knud> zakim, mute me
15:11:02 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
15:11:09 <tinkster> Manu: No, though this is a somewhat related issue. Not as simple.
15:11:38 <ivan> q+
15:11:55 <ShaneM> term Agent != term agent.  if agENT is referenced in a document which version gets picked up?
15:13:59 <manu1> ack ivan
15:14:09 <tinkster> Manu: two possibilities would be ASCII/UTF-8 sort order, or order that they're each declared in the same profile.
15:14:47 <tinkster> Ivan: Didn't we decide that terms are always compared in lower-case?
15:15:09 <webr3> agENT == agent == Agent
15:15:16 <tinkster> Zakim, unmute me
15:15:17 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
15:15:51 <manu1> What happens when we declare in a vocabulary two terms: "Agent" and "agent"
15:16:38 <manu1> and then somebody does this:
15:16:47 <manu1> typeof="agENT"
15:16:53 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me.
15:16:53 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
15:17:08 <tinkster> Manu: Do we recognise that there's an issue?
15:17:11 <webr3> q+ to say drop case insensitivity fall back
15:17:17 <manu1> ack tinkster
15:17:18 <Zakim> tinkster, you wanted to say terms are case sensitive
15:17:21 <manu1> ack webr3
15:17:21 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to say drop case insensitivity fall back
15:17:33 <tinkster> (Broad agreement that there's an issue.)
15:18:15 <ivan> q+
15:18:45 <manu1> ack ivan
15:20:17 <manu1> typeof="agENT"
15:20:26 <ShaneM> the spec currently says: Check iif the <code>term</code> matches an item in the list of <tref>local term mappings</tref>. First compare against the list <em>case-sensitively</em>, and if there is no match then compare <em>case-insensitively</em>. If there is a match,  use the associated URI.
15:21:17 <manu1> We also do case-insensitive because of possibilities like this: xmlns:FOO
15:21:18 <tinkster> Ivan/Nathan: Should we return to case-sensitive terms?
15:21:49 <webr3> q+ to say there might be a way around this
15:22:24 <manu1> ack webr3
15:22:24 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to say there might be a way around this
15:22:56 <tinkster> Nathan: Can't we have this case-sensitive apart from rel?
15:23:33 <tinkster> Ivan: No, I don't think that solves it. Treating rel specially complicates implementations.
15:24:00 <tinkster> ... CURIE and term mappings are one of the most complicated aspects of implementing RDFa.
15:25:00 <tinkster> ShaneM: We could just note that the algorithm is non-deterministic in the spec.
15:25:34 <tinkster> ... Or we could choose one of Manu's strategies. I'd prefer last-defined wins.
15:26:52 <tinkster> ShaneM/Manu: there are various ways of implementing this.
15:28:54 <tinkster> Ivan: we just say that all terms are case-insensitive.
15:29:33 <manu1> What about valid cases where case does matter - Account vs. account in Commerce vocabulary?
15:29:41 <tinkster> Manu: That's a big problem for our company. We use case to differentiate between otherwise identically-named terms.
15:29:53 <webr3> q+ to say, what if you had propertyterm and classterm?
15:30:10 <webr3> q-
15:30:35 <tinkster> Ivan: Then we just say "it's undefined - don't do that".
15:31:30 <webr3> properyterm="agent" - classterm="Agent"
15:31:56 <tinkster> Nathan: have two different sets of term mappings - one for @typeof, and one for other attributes.
15:32:15 <manu1> type="agENT"
15:32:19 <manu1> typeof="agENT"
15:32:37 <ShaneM> q+ to clarify
15:32:47 <tinkster> Manu: I'm starting to think leaving it undefined is best.
15:32:48 <manu1> ack shaneM
15:32:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to clarify
15:33:52 <tinkster> ShaneM: I can support that. We'll get pushback from HTML WG though.
15:35:11 <webr3> q+
15:35:16 <manu1> ack webr3
15:35:30 <Steven> I'm OK with undefined as well
15:36:14 <tinkster> Nathan: Microdata's itemprop is case-sensitive.
15:36:24 <manu1> typeof="agENT"
15:36:39 <manu1> that's undefined, but the processor will generate a triple.
15:37:13 <manu1> the triple that's generated is undefined
15:37:14 <webr3> "When extension relation types are compared, they MUST be compared as strings (after converting to URIs if serialised in a different format, such as a Curie [W3C.CR-curie-20090116]) in a case-insensitive fashion, character-by-character. Because of this, all-lowercase URIs SHOULD be used for extension relations." -- <> 
15:37:28 <tinkster> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:28 <Zakim> tinkster was not muted, tinkster
15:37:59 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me
15:37:59 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
15:38:15 <tinkster> ShaneM: I'll flesh out some wording.
15:38:15 <ShaneM> "In the event that multiple terms are defined that differ only in case, it is undefined which term is matched when a reference is made which does NOT match case-sensitively.' 
15:39:06 <tinkster> Manu: Shane's text for last topic seems sensible.
15:38:05 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-66: Last Call comments from Ian Hickson for RDFa Core 1.1
15:38:27 <tinkster> Manu: Next topic ISSUE-66.
15:38:47 <tinkster> ... Many of his proposals would cause back-compat issues... goes against the charter. Clear what he wants, but the RDFa WG is operating under a different set of philosophical constraints.
15:39:11 <Knud>
15:39:33 <tinkster> Manu: Hixie says that RDFa should not have prefixes.
15:39:55 <ivan> q+
15:40:01 <manu1> ack ivan
15:40:07 <tinkster> ... We've voted in favour of prefixes over and over again. This is a useful feature of the language.
15:41:10 <tinkster> Ivan: There's already a large deployment of RDFa, so we can't drop this feature even if we wanted to. It would also break our charter to break back-compat.
15:42:43 <webr3> There is a fresh proposal, as of yesterday, in HTML WG to remove @profile, @prefix and @xmlns: from HTML5+RDFa -
15:47:13 <tinkster>
15:47:24 <Steven> +1
15:48:12 <tinkster> Manu: prefixes are used everywhere in published content. We can't drop them.
15:48:53 <tinkster> ... Hixie also brings up usability testing.
15:49:31 <webr3> have usability studies been done on HTML?
15:49:38 <tinkster> ShaneM: The community is already using RDFa and the plethora of implementations seem to get things broadly correct. 
15:50:19 <tinkster> Nathan: I'm happy to draft a response on this.
15:51:40 <tinkster> Topic: Distributing Last Call Comment Analysis and Responses
15:51:41 <tinkster> Manu: Some of the remaining LC comments are really detailed, so we may need to split the work up, draft responses and only discuss contentious points on the call.
15:52:15 <tinkster> Ivan: Many of JeniT's comments are editorial; could these be separated out?
15:52:25 <Steven> Triage!
15:53:34 <tinkster> Manu: any objections to moving forward with this new way of handling LC comments?
15:53:54 <tinkster> Manu: OK then, who should take what?
15:53:59 <manu1>
15:56:42 <Steven> To assign these to people, you could use the RAISED BY field
15:57:36 <tinkster> Ivan: I'd like to split Harry's issue into several smaller ones.
15:58:12 <tinkster> Manu: That's fine as a way of dealing with the issues.
15:59:48 <manu1> ACTION: Ivan to triage ISSUE-68 and ISSUE-69
15:59:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Triage ISSUE-68 and ISSUE-69 [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-01-27].
16:00:06 <tinkster> Zakim, unmute me
16:00:06 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
16:01:27 <Steven> trackbot, help
16:01:27 <trackbot> See for help
16:01:56 <manu1> ACTION: Toby to triage ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-74.
16:01:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Triage ISSUE-67 and ISSUE-74. [on Toby Inkster - due 2011-01-27].
16:02:03 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me
16:02:03 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
16:02:20 <tinkster> (Issues are being divvied up.)
16:02:52 <manu1> ACTION: Nathan to triage ISSUE-66 and ISSUE-76
16:02:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Triage ISSUE-66 and ISSUE-76 [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-01-27].
16:03:49 <Steven> Give me one of those
16:04:32 <manu1> ACTION: Shane to triage ISSUE-70 and ISSUE-72
16:04:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Triage ISSUE-70 and ISSUE-72 [on Shane McCarron - due 2011-01-27].
16:04:59 <tinkster> Zakim, unmute me
16:04:59 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
16:05:38 <manu1> ACTION: Steven to triage ISSUE-75.
16:05:38 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Steven
16:05:38 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. steven, spembert)
16:05:54 <tinkster> Zakim, mute me
16:05:54 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
16:06:09 <Steven> trackbot, status
16:06:14 <ivan> q+
16:06:31 <Steven> :-)
16:06:51 <manu1> ack ivan
16:07:41 <tinkster> Zakim, unmute me
16:07:41 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
16:08:58 <manu1> ACTION: Manu to triage ISSUE-71.
16:08:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Triage ISSUE-71. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-01-27].
16:09:09 <manu1> ACTION: Mark to triage ISSUE-73.
16:09:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Triage ISSUE-73. [on Mark Birbeck - due 2011-01-27].
16:09:30 <Steven>
16:10:23 <tinkster> Manu: by next week we should have split each issue up into 3 parts: 1) editorial comments that can be addressed without much debate, 2) non-editorial comments that the WG has already discussed and come to a conclusion on, and 3) non-editorial comments that the group has not discussed, or comments that are contentious and need the groups focused effort in order to resolve.
16:11:17 <tinkster> ... Send progress to the mailing list, draft responses are welcome. Let's try to get the first sweep through these done by next Thursday's telecon.
16:11:37 <tinkster> ... Add new ISSUEs for #3 above - anything that the group needs to discuss should be marked as a Last Call Issue.
16:11:49 <Zakim> -webr3
16:11:50 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:11:51 <Zakim> -Steven
16:11:52 <Zakim> -tinkster
16:11:52 <Zakim> -Knud
16:11:53 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:11:55 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:12:06 <Zakim> -Benjamin
16:12:07 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
16:12:08 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, +44.123.456.aaaa, +3539149aabb, +47.85.583.aacc, Ivan, +3539149aadd, manu1, Steven, tinkster, webr3, [IPcaller], Benjamin, Knud