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Chatlog 2010-11-18
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14:55:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:55:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-rdfa-irc 14:55:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:55:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:55:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 14:55:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:59 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference 14:55:59 <trackbot> Date: 18 November 2010 14:56:02 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Nov/0101.html 14:56:09 <manu> Chair: Manu 14:56:58 <manu> Present: Ivan, Nathan, Steven, Manu, ShaneM, Benjamin, MarkB 14:58:24 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:58:24 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:58:25 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:58:28 <Zakim> +Ivan 14:59:44 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:00:01 <markbirbeck> zakim, who is here? 15:00:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan 15:00:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, Zakim, RRSAgent, manu, Steven, ivan, Nathan, trackbot 15:00:31 <Zakim> +manu 15:01:33 <markbirbeck> Manu...I'm at a two-day open data camp: http://blog.okfn.org/2010/08/13/open-government-data-camp-2010-18-19th-november-2010/ I thought I'd be able to find a quiet spot to join the call, but it's not possible. I'll hang out on IRC as much as I can, in case you need any extra votes. :) 15:02:46 <markbirbeck> (I.e., I know there are some issues that you wanted to close sooner rather than later.) 15:02:46 <Zakim> +??P34 15:02:56 <Nathan> Zakim, I am ? 15:02:56 <Zakim> +Nathan; got it 15:03:29 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa 15:04:02 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aaaa 15:04:10 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 15:04:10 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:04:11 <Zakim> +Steven 15:05:30 <manu> zakim, who is on the call? 15:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, manu, Nathan, +1.612.217.aaaa, Steven 15:05:48 <Zakim> + +63.12.057.5aabb 15:05:58 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Shane 15:05:58 <Zakim> +Shane; got it 15:06:21 <manu> scribe: Steven 15:06:22 <Benjamin> zakim, aabb is Benjamin 15:06:22 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it 15:06:26 <manu> scribenick: Steven 15:06:35 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Nov/0101.html 15:06:44 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 15:06:47 <Steven> Scribe: Steven 15:06:59 <ShaneM> is muted 15:07:33 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me 15:07:33 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted 15:07:42 <Steven> Manu: Michael Hausenblas is reviewing the RDFa Core 1.1 LC doc 15:07:44 <Steven> Manu: Also note the change proposals that just went through, no one objected to the changes 15:07:51 <Nathan> 57,49,55,58 all past 7 days 15:08:01 <Steven> ... take a look at the upcoming two proposals to close issues, state potential objections if you have them 15:08:04 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-53: DataParser Upgrades 15:08:11 <Steven> ISSUE-53 - DataParser Upgrades - http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/53 15:10:01 <Steven> Nathan: Main changes to this parser are 1) to support lightweight SAX-like parsers by adding a method 15:10:18 <Steven> ... to give a callback on each triple found 15:10:35 <ivan> q+ 15:10:50 <Steven> ... 'parse' method may need discussion 15:11:30 <Steven> ... should we also support fragment parsing 15:11:37 <Steven> ... or just full document 15:11:39 <manu> ack ivan 15:11:50 <Steven> Ivan: Procedural point 15:12:13 <Steven> ... is there anyone who will implement the interface on mobile for feedback? 15:12:16 <manu> q+ on mobile implementation 15:12:34 <manu> ack manu 15:12:34 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to comment on mobile implementation 15:13:02 <Steven> Manu: LibRDFa is sax-based, keeping the footprint small, so I could give feedback 15:13:44 <Steven> Ivan: We need feedback 15:14:10 <Steven> Manu: Is a parser with low memory requirements enough? 15:14:26 <Steven> Ivan: We define our CR criteria, but they should be decent 15:14:36 <Steven> ... an implementation on a phone would be fine 15:15:00 <markbirbeck> We already support fragment parsing in a sense, since the input to the parse method is a DOMElement object, not a Document object. 15:15:01 <Steven> Shane: I have access to mobile environments 15:15:09 <Steven> ... we should definitely test it 15:15:20 <markbirbeck> MACRO11 15:15:25 <markbirbeck> brings back memories. 15:17:05 <Steven> Nathan: I see that Mark points out that we do DOMElement, which allows fragments, but a DOMElement is not the document node 15:17:35 <markbirbeck> @Steven: Right. However, we stipulate that the /entire/ document must be taken into account for context. 15:17:49 <markbirbeck> But we /could/ say that we start parsing at that node, and that's it. 15:18:01 <markbirbeck> (That's what my parser did.) 15:18:05 <Nathan> markbirbeck, yes but you can't throw in a Document because Document extends Node not Element 15:18:20 <markbirbeck> Oh yes, sorry. 15:18:52 <markbirbeck> @Nathan: Good point...but I think that is a mistake then. The intention was originally to be able to start parsing anywhere. 15:18:52 <Steven> [Scribe notes that web3r is Nathan] 15:19:44 <Steven> Nathan: there are two interfaces, one for each triple, one for the whole graph 15:20:18 <Steven> ... a third allows you to filter triples 15:20:27 <Steven> ... to keep memory requirements down 15:20:41 <Steven> Manu: I added some items at the bottom of the issue 15:20:53 <Steven> ... such as RDF Graph 15:21:17 <Steven> ... how does the parser callback have access to the filter method? 15:21:43 <Steven> Nathan: The filter is run by the parser itself, and the callback is only called if the filter allows it 15:22:13 <Steven> ... the callback is a graph 15:22:55 <Steven> ... the graph is first assembled, and filtered, then passed to the callback 15:23:09 <Steven> Manu: So 'run' is only called once at the end of parsing? 15:23:11 <Steven> Nathan: Yes 15:23:59 <Nathan> parse( document, function(graph) { //etc }, ?filter ) 15:24:28 <Steven> Manu: If there is an error, how do they get hold of the processor graph? 15:24:35 <markbirbeck> @Nathan, Not quite following...how does it save memory to assemble the whole graph? Surely you want to reject triples during assembly? Or have I missed the point? :) 15:25:04 <Steven> Nathan: By accessing a member variable or method. 15:25:30 <Steven> Manu: Is the run method called with what could be parsed? 15:25:40 <Steven> Nathan: I think so 15:26:59 <Steven> Manu: LibRDFa ends parsing many times because of bad documents 15:27:09 <Nathan> @Mark, the whole graph isn't assembled, before the parser adds a triple to the graph it checks if it passes the filter or not before adding 15:27:18 <Steven> ... it is more useful to be able to use triples you have found than to give up completely 15:27:36 <markbirbeck> Like this? 15:27:39 <markbirbeck> parse( document, function( triple ) { if favoured( triple ) return true; return false; } ) 15:27:47 <markbirbeck> Check each triple? 15:27:54 <markbirbeck> Only add if it matches? 15:29:36 <Nathan> @Mark, pretty much yes :) see: https://github.com/Nathan/rdfa-api/blob/master/source/parsers.js 15:29:47 <Steven> Ivan: The question is whether any of the triples found are in error because of the parsing error 15:30:35 <Steven> Manu: Triples can still be wrong without parsing errors 15:30:48 <Steven> Ivan: True 15:32:07 <Steven> Ivan: I would prefer not to get triples than to get wrong ones 15:32:32 <Steven> Manu: That should be up to the application 15:33:28 <markbirbeck> @Nathan, Thanks. Was confused by earlier discussion...it sounded like the filter was applied after the entire graph was assembled. 15:33:37 <Steven> Manu: Most pages are broken, but with librdfa, I can get lots of useful triples despite that 15:34:13 <Steven> q+ 15:34:46 <Steven> ack s 15:35:14 <Steven> Steven: Isn't there a DOM, and we should define it in terms of the DOM you get, or would have got if you had built one 15:35:45 <Steven> Manu: Not possible with a SAX-based parser 15:37:59 <ivan> q+ 15:38:08 <manu> ack ivan 15:38:19 <Steven> ... if you're not running in a browser environment, you don't have that option 15:38:50 <Steven> Ivan: I propose that we should keep the triples, but someone should analyse what sort of danger we are in 15:39:04 <Steven> ... I don't want incorrect triples. 15:39:27 <Steven> Manu: The parser returns false for incorrect input 15:40:07 <Steven> Nathan: I think that's fine 15:40:56 <Steven> ... how about if a profile can't be retrieved? Is that a parsing failure? 15:41:16 <Steven> Manu: I think so, a processing error should return false 15:41:58 <markbirbeck> Bearing in mind of course that a parser is not obliged to retrieve a profile. :) 15:42:32 <Steven> Manu: other issue is both graphs, default and processor. Option, should go in the callback? 15:42:48 <Steven> Nathan: Only pass in the default graph into the callback 15:43:08 <Steven> ... that would be wise 15:43:31 <Steven> Manu: Expose the processor graph via an attribute or a method? 15:43:38 <Steven> Nathan: A method 15:43:54 <Steven> ... would be friendlier 15:44:01 <Steven> Manu: Agree 15:44:22 <Steven> Manu: So that handles the parse method 15:44:44 <Steven> ... oh, one more thing 15:44:50 <markbirbeck> Doesn't that latter point depend on the graph v. store issue? 15:44:58 <Steven> ... do we support passing in IRI's? 15:44:59 <markbirbeck> If you pass in the store, you get both graphs anyway. 15:45:19 <Steven> Manu: Are there any MUSTs in what is supported? 15:45:29 <manu> Does parse() support: DOMElement, Document, text, IRI? 15:45:41 <Steven> Nathan: MUST be document, and I suggest text, just for existing RDF. Not sure about IRI 15:46:11 <Steven> ... you don't know what's at the other end 15:46:25 <manu> Document, text 15:46:51 <manu> <div>SOME RDFA IN HERE</div> 15:47:01 <Steven> Manu: Could I pass in a <div>? 15:47:27 <Steven> Ivan: You lose the context, prefixes, language, base, ... 15:47:33 <Steven> ... and get wrong triples 15:47:39 <markbirbeck> Obviously difficult to determine the subtleties of the discussion, but why not a node? I.e., element /or/ document. 15:48:05 <markbirbeck> You don't get 'wrong' triples if you know what you are parsing. 15:48:09 <Nathan> mark, agreed /if/ partial documents then has to be Node 15:48:26 <Steven> Manu: Snippet editing is a use-case 15:48:30 <markbirbeck> Lots of people are doing stuff where they embed RDFa in RDFa. 15:48:37 <markbirbeck> E.g., Drupal. 15:48:44 <Steven> Manu: Don't think we need to support DOM elements 15:48:59 <markbirbeck> So you might want to parse the /embedded/ RDFa using a different context to the one from the source document. 15:49:07 <Steven> Ivan: I don't even know what the host language is with a fragemtn 15:49:23 <Steven> Manu: OK to leave elements out? 15:49:29 <Steven> Nathan: I'd be happy with that 15:49:39 <markbirbeck> Seems unnecessary. 15:49:46 <markbirbeck> (To leave it out, I mean.) 15:50:45 <Nathan> drupal case, is that not 2 documents? 15:51:09 <Steven> Steven: Is Mark's example a suitable use-case? 15:51:25 <Steven> Manu: DOM element parsing is more like a convenience 15:51:49 <Steven> ... we can still support the Drupal case without DOM element 15:51:58 <ShaneM> I do not think that arbitrary element subtree parsing makes any sense on its own. It has to be in the context of a document so there is a media type / base. 15:52:20 <manu> @markbirbeck: We don't need to process DOMElements if we support Document and text 15:52:50 <manu> @markbirbeck: DOMElement processing is more of a convenience method... 15:53:03 <markbirbeck> Do we not want to provide conenience? ;) 15:53:08 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:53:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 15:53:38 <manu> @markbirbeck, yes, but it's not too inconvenient to wrap the content in HTML/HEAD/BODY ? 15:53:54 <manu> @markbirbeck: Let's push off this decision until a bit later, until we can have a conversation w/ you about it. 15:53:55 <Nathan> @markbirbeck, libraries can easily without requiring this, especially if we just set the type to 'any' which we have to - the issue is half moot 15:54:01 <markbirbeck> The RDFa parsing model is recursive, so once you get past the root node, then you are always parsing elements anyway. 15:54:24 <markbirbeck> The context is passed down the calls, by accumulating from what's above. 15:54:35 <Steven> Nathan: If we're supporting more than Document, then we have to change the interface to ANY 15:54:41 <Steven> ... we can't prevent that\ 15:55:02 <Steven> Manu: Right, but we'd use spec text to prevent it 15:55:05 <markbirbeck> So it's not really an argument to say that you need the context from the host document, because once you get past the root you're using a contrived context anyway. 15:55:40 <markbirbeck> @Manu: Sure. Sorry that I've missed yet another call. :( 15:55:41 <Steven> Manu: We have to make the minimum supported 'toparse' types clear - the minimum processing requirements in the spec must be clear 15:56:55 <Steven> Nathan: I agree 15:57:18 <Steven> Manu: We will have a future discussion with Mark about supporting fragment parsing/processing 15:57:29 <Steven> Topic: Any Other Business? 15:57:48 <Steven> Steven: Next Thursday is Thanksgiving, are we having a call? 15:58:04 <markbirbeck> I'll also ping Stephane because I think it's his use-case that has lodged in my mind. 15:58:26 <markbirbeck> (And if it's not, I'll see if I can work out where it came from.) 15:58:26 <Steven> Manu: I can't make the call. Please feel free to have a telcon without me 15:58:36 <Steven> Shane: I'm available 15:59:19 <Steven> Manu: I'll send an agenda for the rest of you 15:59:24 <Steven> [ADJOURN] 15:59:27 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me 15:59:28 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted 15:59:29 <ivan> zakim, drop me 15:59:29 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 15:59:30 <Zakim> -Ivan 15:59:32 <Zakim> -manu 15:59:37 <Zakim> -Nathan 15:59:39 <Zakim> -Shane 15:59:41 <Zakim> -Benjamin 15:59:43 <Zakim> -Steven 15:59:45 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended 15:59:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, manu, Nathan, +1.612.217.aaaa, Steven, +63.12.057.5aabb, Shane, Benjamin 15:59:53 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-rdfa-minutes.html Steven # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000226