Chatlog 2010-04-08

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13:34:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:34:35 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:34:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:34:40 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #rdfa
13:35:38 <manu> trackbot, setup meeting
13:35:38 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup meeting'. Please refer to for help
13:35:43 <manu> trackbot, start meeting
13:35:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:35:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:35:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
13:35:48 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:35:48 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010
13:36:07 <manu> Agenda:
13:36:28 <manu> Regrets: Steven, Markus, BenA, Steven
13:36:30 <manu> Present: Manu, Ivan, Dongmei, Toby, Shane, Abhijit, Benjamin, Knud, MarkB
13:42:58 <manu> Dongmei, is this your first W3C telecon?
13:43:10 <dongmei> this is my first teleconference
13:43:12 <dongmei> yes
13:43:15 <manu> ok
13:43:36 <manu> well, usually what happens during a telecon is a review of action items, then we go through the agenda.
13:43:46 <manu> todays agenda is here:
13:44:31 <dongmei> thank you
13:44:35 <manu> This working group is currently trying to get our documents in order for our first publishing cycle - which is called First Public Working Draft
13:44:58 <dongmei> i see
13:45:37 <manu> We must submit the drafts next week to W3C Publications - at which time they will be announced and placed on the W3C website for public review.
13:46:24 <manu> W3C Working groups are usually required to publish drafts every couple of months (usually 2-4 months) to demonstrate that we're making progress.
13:47:03 <dongmei> what happens after the review, go to next draft?
13:47:09 <manu> This Working group started in February 2010, so we're in the 3rd month of operation - thus, we're trying to demonstrate progress by publishing three documents: RDFa Core 1.1, XHTML+RDFa 1.1 and RDFa DOM API.
13:47:46 <manu> Well, the review and working on the next draft happen at the same time... so while the public is reviewing the First Public Working Drafts, we work on the next draft in parallel
13:48:19 <dongmei> i see
13:48:26 <markbirbeck> Hi Manu. I'm going to have trouble making the call.
13:48:39 <manu> ahh, too bad :(
13:48:43 <markbirbeck> I've answered the poll, and I wanted to update you on the API.
13:49:03 <manu> What's up with the API?
13:50:04 <markbirbeck> I've written a wiki-based first draft, but it's not in a spec format. I was hoping to get Benjamin's input earlier this week but that didn't happen.
13:50:34 <markbirbeck> If I work with him tomorrow afternoon (assuming he is free), will we still make your schedule?
13:50:53 <manu> We submit to W3C Pubs next Thursday
13:51:05 <manu> so as long as it's done before then (with a little time for review), then we're good.
13:51:38 <markbirbeck> (I can be on IRC during the call, by the way, if you want to ask Benjamin what his availability is on the call. It's just that I've got a lot of things that must be done by close of play today.)
13:52:00 <markbirbeck> Ok. Great.
13:52:04 <manu> sure, if you can stick around on IRC, that would be great.
13:52:08 <markbirbeck> Will do.
13:52:25 <manu> I'll follow-up after the call to see how we can get this done before next Thursday.
13:52:38 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
13:54:03 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa
13:54:24 <manu> zakim, code?
13:54:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu
13:56:21 <manu> Benjamin, Mark said that he put something on the wiki - RDFa API stuff - needs you to review it, give feedback and integrate it if possible.
13:56:38 <Benjamin> Oh sure
13:56:43 <manu> Benjamin, Could you work with Mark tomorrow on that, or some time early next week?
13:56:59 <Benjamin> Early next week would be better
13:57:08 <Benjamin> Since when is it in the wiki?
13:57:21 <manu> earlier this week... don't know the url... Mark? 
13:57:47 <markbirbeck> Didn't say it was in the wiki...sorry.
13:57:53 <markbirbeck> It's in 'wiki format'. :)
13:58:01 <manu> oh - ha!
13:58:12 <Benjamin> ok, where can I read it :)
13:58:22 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:58:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:58:34 <markbirbeck> I'd like to go through it with you Benjamin.
13:58:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
13:59:07 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:59:07 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:59:08 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:59:15 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #rdfa
13:59:24 <Zakim> +knud
13:59:32 <Knud> zakim, mute me
13:59:32 <Zakim> knud should now be muted
13:59:35 <Zakim> +[MIT528]
13:59:49 <Zakim> +tinkster
14:00:16 <Zakim> +Benjamin
14:00:26 <markbirbeck> Even if it's just briefly tomorrow, on IM.
14:00:42 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:00:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], Ivan, knud (muted), [MIT528], tinkster, Benjamin
14:00:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see tinkster, Benjamin, Knud, trackbot, Zakim, RRSAgent, dongmei, markbirbeck, ivan, manu
14:01:10 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller.a is manu
14:01:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it
14:01:44 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is Abhijit
14:01:44 <Zakim> +Abhijit; got it
14:02:47 <ivan> zakim, MIT528 is dongmei
14:02:47 <Zakim> +dongmei; got it
14:02:52 <manu> zakim, who is on the call
14:02:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', manu
14:02:54 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Abhijit, manu, Ivan, knud (muted), dongmei, tinkster, Benjamin
14:03:54 <ivan> Scribe: Knud
14:03:56 <ivan> scribenick: Knud
14:04:16 <Knud> TOPIC: Action Items
14:04:16 <manu> Agenda for today:
14:04:54 <Knud> ACTION-20, Mark has written something up, Benjamin needs to review it
14:04:54 <trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Benjamin to revise RDFa DOM API 1.1 notes added
14:04:55 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:05:58 <Knud> there is a pseudo-deadline for those documents next week
14:06:33 <Knud> there will be a vote on those documents next week
14:08:05 <Knud> Manu: any objections to publishing first version of RDFa DOM API 1.1 as it is now?
14:08:31 <Knud> Ivan: this will need to be answered next week
14:09:24 <Knud> Manu: will send document with W3C publication requirements to Benjamin
14:09:35 <Benjamin> q+
14:09:58 <manu> ack benjamin
14:10:18 <Knud> Benjamin: some native speaker please review api document
14:10:46 <manu> ACTION: Manu to review RDFa DOM API document before FPWD
14:10:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Review RDFa DOM API document before FPWD [on Manu Sporny - due 2010-04-15].
14:10:53 <Benjamin> thanx Manu
14:11:16 <manu>
14:12:13 <manu> trackbot, comment ACTION-21 document is annotated at:
14:12:13 <trackbot> ACTION-21 Review RDFa Core 1.1 notes added
14:13:22 <Knud> TOPIC: Support prefix in RDFA Profile documents
14:13:30 <manu>
14:14:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:14:22 <Knud> 9 in favour, 2 opposed (Ben Adida amd Toby Inkster)
14:17:49 <manu> PROPOSAL: Support the declaration of prefixes for CURIEs in the RDFa Profile document.
14:17:57 <ivan> +1
14:18:05 <Knud> +1
14:18:06 <manu> +1
14:18:13 <Benjamin> +1
14:18:19 <ShaneM> +1 I guess
14:18:25 <tinkster> I think this is a bad idea because if the profile document disappears, the CURIE looks like a URI. But I'm not going to -1, so I'll +0.
14:18:46 <manu> RESOLUTION: Support the declaration of prefixes for CURIEs in the RDFa Profile document.
14:19:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM ensure prefix declarations are permitted in RDFa Profile documents
14:19:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Ensure prefix declarations are permitted in RDFa Profile documents [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-04-15].
14:19:52 <Knud> TOPIC: ISSUE-13, empty @typeof creates bnode
14:20:10 <Knud> all in favour in the doodle poll
14:20:12 <ShaneM> So, if @typeof is present and has no value or has an illegal value, a bnode is created
14:20:14 <manu> PROPOSAL: Support an empty @typeof attribute triggering bnode creation: typeof="" creates a bnode
14:20:15 <tinkster> (I think this is how a lot of RDFa 1.0 processors work anyway.)
14:20:36 <ivan> +1
14:20:39 <manu> +1
14:20:39 <Knud> +1
14:20:42 <Benjamin> +1
14:21:05 <tinkster> +1
14:21:32 <manu> RESOLUTION: Support an empty @typeof attribute triggering bnode creation: typeof="" creates a bnode
14:22:06 <manu> PROPOSAL: Support the existence of a @typeof attribute containing no valid terms/CURIES triggering bnode creation: typeof="invalidfoo"
14:22:26 <tinkster> +1
14:22:29 <Knud> +1
14:22:31 <manu> +1
14:22:33 <Benjamin> +1
14:22:34 <ShaneM> +1
14:22:35 <ivan> (addition to Toby, this is also how my distiller works already...)
14:22:36 <ivan> +1
14:22:50 <tinkster> Both of these already work in RDF::RDFa::Parser.
14:23:35 <tinkster> relative URIs are only for about/resource/src/href
14:23:47 <manu> RESOLUTION: Support the existence of a @typeof attribute containing no valid terms/CURIES triggering bnode creation: typeof="invalidfoo"
14:24:17 <Knud> TOPIC: ISSUE-14, alternate prefix declaration mechanism
14:24:40 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about @typeof to RDFa Core
14:24:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Add text about @typeof to RDFa Core [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-04-15].
14:24:45 <Knud> four different options in doodle poll
14:24:49 <manu> The options we are discussing are: 
14:24:51 <manu> prefix="a= b="
14:24:56 <manu> prefix="a: b:"
14:25:02 <manu> prefix="a:; b:"
14:25:09 <manu> prefix="a b"
14:25:23 <manu> This seems to have the most support: prefix="a: b:"
14:25:25 <tinkster> The RDF::RDFa::Parser already supports the equals-sign syntax, though it's disabled by default. (I think PyRDFa does too.)
14:25:48 <ivan> q+
14:25:56 <ShaneM> q+ to express opposition as well
14:26:02 <manu> ack ivan
14:26:12 <Knud> URIs already contain colons, which is why some don't like colon-based option
14:26:38 <Knud> Toby and Ivan don't like this
14:27:15 <Knud> Ivan: equal sign option is less error-prone
14:28:03 <manu> This is what XML Schema location uses: prefix="a b"
14:29:37 <Knud> toby: this option might lead to maintenance issues when people delete declarations
14:29:38 <manu> prefix="a:; b:"
14:29:59 <tinkster> semicolons are valid parts of URIs anyway.
14:30:18 <ShaneM> Yeah - we cant use semicolons
14:30:33 <manu> ack shanem
14:30:33 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to express opposition as well
14:31:25 <tinkster> people who are used to CSS will forget about the space.
14:31:36 <tinkster> the space isn't needed in CSS.
14:32:07 <manu> prefix="a= b="
14:32:08 <ivan> q+
14:33:13 <tinkster> seems like a sensible way out.
14:33:17 <Knud> ivan: this is hard to resolve, yet only a small syntax issue. Let's adopt the one with most votes for the moment.
14:33:26 <ShaneM> Thats fine
14:33:31 <manu> PROPOSAL: Support the colon/whitespace syntax for the prefix attribute: prefix="a: b:"
14:33:36 <manu> +1
14:33:38 <ivan> +1
14:33:40 <Knud> +1
14:33:42 <tinkster> +1
14:33:49 <Benjamin> +1
14:34:13 <manu> RESOLUTION: Support the colon/whitespace syntax for the prefix attribute: prefix="a: b:"
14:34:40 <Knud> TOPIC: RDFa Core issues
14:35:35 <manu> q+
14:35:39 <manu> ack ivan
14:36:39 <Knud> Ivan: where does the split between RDFa Core and host languages (XHTML, ...) go?
14:37:13 <ivan> q+
14:37:22 <ivan> ack manu
14:37:24 <Knud> Manu: to be independet from e.g. XHTML, we might have to move references to things like "head", etc. to the host languages
14:37:38 <Knud> manu: but that would lead to a lot of duplication between core and host languages
14:37:56 <manu> q+ to discuss @rel/@rev
14:38:22 <Knud> (can someone post the link the this thread on the mailing list?)
14:39:17 <manu> This is one of the threads:
14:41:26 <manu> ack ivan
14:41:41 <ShaneM> and @content and @property
14:41:52 <manu> ack manu
14:41:52 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss @rel/@rev
14:41:54 <tinkster> I think @src/@href need to be in Core. Otherwise establishing subject URIs can become error-prone.
14:41:55 <Knud> ivan: referring to elements is more problematic than referring to attributes
14:42:11 <ivan> -> my last mail on that issue
14:42:16 <tinkster> <head>/<body>/<base> I'm happy to live in XHTML+RDFa.
14:42:51 <ShaneM> me too, really.  but we would need to change the sequence to not talk about head and body.
14:43:35 <ShaneM> The current document says "This specification assumes that certain   elements are present in the Host Language (e.g.,   head).  If these elements are not supported in   the Host Language, then the corresponding processing rules   are not relevant for that language."  Does that help?
14:45:17 <tinkster> They are stupid rules.
14:46:25 <ShaneM>
14:46:49 <tinkster> The default subject is *already* the current document in RDFa 1.0.
14:47:05 <tinkster> e.g. <html property=":foo" content="bar" />
14:47:49 <tinkster> Or a typeof on <head>.
14:49:34 <ShaneM> tinkster, You are correct.
14:50:20 <tinkster> The XHTML namespace isn't the default prefix.
14:50:40 <Knud> ivan's other issue is use of xhtml namespace as default namespace
14:50:42 <tinkster> <> vs <>.
14:51:15 <tinkster> The XHTML vocab is generically useful though - I've used it in Turtle.
14:51:35 <ShaneM> I agree - I think it provides a nice base of terms that will always be available.
14:52:10 <tinkster> Create a unified vocab, but place it at <> for 1.0 compatibility.
14:56:18 <manu> q+ to end the telecon
14:57:07 <ivan> q+
14:57:26 <Benjamin> I would be really thankful for any input or comments
14:57:46 <manu> ack manu
14:57:54 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to end the telecon
14:58:08 <manu> ack ivan
14:59:07 <dongmei> +q
14:59:14 <dongmei> thank you all, i've enjoyed a great experience here. 
15:01:03 <Zakim> -tinkster
15:01:05 <Zakim> -dongmei
15:01:06 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:01:08 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:01:10 <Zakim> -Abhijit
15:01:12 <Zakim> -Benjamin
15:01:14 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:01:15 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:01:19 <Zakim> -knud
15:01:26 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:01:28 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:01:32 <Zakim> -manu
15:01:33 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate ivan
15:01:34 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:01:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, knud, tinkster, Benjamin, manu, Abhijit, dongmei, ShaneM
15:02:32 <dongmei> dongmei has left #rdfa