IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-02-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:50:32 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:50:32 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-irc
15:50:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:50:36 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
15:50:36 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:50:37 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:50:37 [trackbot]: Date: 25 February 2010
15:50:47 [MichaelC]: chair: Mike_Smith
15:50:52 [MichaelC]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0522.html
15:50:53 [JF]: Morning Michael
15:51:55 [MichaelC]: regrets: Laura_Carlson, Ben_Caldwell, Geoff_Freed, Markku_Hakkinen, Joshue_O'Connor, Kelly_Ford
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15:54:42 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Actions Review
15:54:43 [MichaelC]: agenda+ discuss survey results for canvas change proposal: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20100225_canvas/results
15:54:45 [MichaelC]: agenda+ discuss results for summary-details change proposal: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20100225_summary/results
15:54:46 [MichaelC]: agenda+ discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
15:54:48 [MichaelC]: agenda+ discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
15:54:49 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0497.html
15:54:51 [MichaelC]: agenda+ New Business
15:54:52 [MichaelC]: agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
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15:56:50 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:56:57 [Zakim]: +??P6
15:57:04 [Zakim]: +John_Foliot
15:57:06 [Zakim]: -John_Foliot
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15:57:25 [Stevef]: zakim, ??P6 is Stevef
15:57:25 [Zakim]: +Stevef; got it
15:57:29 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:57:35 [Zakim]: +John_Foliot
15:57:40 [Zakim]: +Eric_Carlson
15:58:53 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
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15:59:16 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
15:59:17 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:59:18 [Zakim]: +Mike
15:59:39 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, Mike is me
15:59:41 [Zakim]: +MikeSmith; got it
15:59:47 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
15:59:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:59:59 [Zakim]: +Rich
16:00:23 [richardschwerdtfe]: richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:00:25 [oedipus]: GJR joins in steveF's plus 1 to rich's most recent post
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16:00:50 [Zakim]: +Marco_Ranon
16:01:00 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeSmith
16:01:10 [Zakim]: + +1.514.312.aaaa
16:01:58 [dboudreau]: <---- 515.312
16:02:00 [MichaelC]: zakim, +1.514 is Denis_Boudreau
16:02:00 [Zakim]: +Denis_Boudreau; got it
16:02:04 [Zakim]: +Matt
16:02:09 [dboudreau]: hi hi :)
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16:02:13 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Rich
16:03:18 [oedipus]: scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:03:22 [oedipus]: scribenick: oedipus
16:03:31 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Introductory Stuff
16:03:41 [oedipus]: MS: will have scribe rotation list ready for next week
16:04:02 [oedipus]: MS: put agendum item on media accessibility -- move to front of agenda and address briefly
16:04:10 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
16:04:12 [oedipus]: MS: want to give summary and next steps
16:04:28 [MikeSmith]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0522.html
16:04:32 [Zakim]: +kliehm
16:05:13 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:13 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
16:05:13 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:13 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
16:05:13 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:14 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
16:05:17 [oedipus]: MS: experiencing IRC problems - please stand by
16:05:18 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:20 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
16:05:22 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:24 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss TextAssociations proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
16:05:26 [MikeSmith]: agenda+discuss MultitrackAPI proposal: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:05:44 [MikeSmith]: zakim, take item 19
16:05:44 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'take item 19', MikeSmith
16:05:46 [oedipus]: zakim, agendum 19
16:05:46 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agendum 19', oedipus
16:05:56 [oedipus]: zakim, take agendum 19
16:05:58 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'take agendum 19', oedipus
16:06:13 [oedipus]: TOPIC: MultitrackAPI Proposal
16:06:44 [oedipus]: MS: draft is up-to-date; ready for us to take to TF as a whole for a survey; only hold up is survey not yet put together, will be soon
16:06:47 [cyns]: cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:07:07 [MikeSmith]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
16:07:09 [oedipus]: MS: plan: discuss MultitrackAPI Proposal next week; have survey out at beginning of week then discuss on call next week
16:07:25 [oedipus]: MS: if have comments or something new to say about draft proposal, please take to list
16:07:46 [oedipus]: TOPIC: TextAssociations proposal
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16:08:13 [oedipus]: MS: please read proposal -- if anything new to say that hasn't been said, please post comments to list A.S.A.P.
16:08:16 [Zakim]: +??P27
16:08:34 [oedipus]: MS: will be putting together a survey for TextAssociationsAPI for beginning of next week so can discuss at next week's call
16:08:45 [oedipus]: zakim, ??P27 is Jon_Gunderson
16:08:45 [Zakim]: +Jon_Gunderson; got it
16:08:52 [oedipus]: MS: any questions or comments?
16:09:38 [oedipus]: JF: has been fair amount of discussion on which type of timestamp format; a lot of back-and-forth, but no decision; boils down to SRT, SMIL tags, etc. - no resolution yet -- anyone with substantive thoghts or comments please post
16:09:42 [oedipus]: MS: thanks JF
16:09:54 [Zakim]: +Gerald-E
16:10:05 [oedipus]: MS: talked with sylvia today; asked slyvia for some text for basis for survey on issue of format
16:10:34 [oedipus]: MS: will be reflected in surveys -- probably need discussion; format issue clearly needds resolution
16:11:06 [oedipus]: MS: for those who haven't weighed in on format discussion, review thread if possible to ensure that if you do post something it is something new and substantive
16:11:24 [oedipus]: MS: comments that lead to action items are encouraged
16:11:37 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Actions Review
16:12:19 [oedipus]: s/TOPIC: Actions Review/TOPIC: survey results for canvas change proposal: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20100225_canvas/results
16:12:26 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:12:58 [oedipus]: MS: approach suggest with documented results, look for points-of-agreement
16:13:17 [oedipus]: MS: question on canvas simpler than summary versus details survey
16:13:22 [oedipus]: MS: want to find points of consensus
16:13:27 [oedipus]: q?
16:13:36 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:13:42 [richardschwerdtfe]: q+
16:13:48 [Stevef]: q+
16:15:03 [oedipus]: RS: agreement in principle: need ability to: 1) have solution where a11y test tool can test when runs into CANVAS; 2) make use of HTML components as much as possible (reduces burden on author); 3) need to be able to associate a representation of what is in canvas in terms of structural info; need to be explicit as to what UA does when encounters an a11y implementation for CANVAS
16:15:12 [oedipus]: RS: AT (assistive tech) also key
16:15:54 [oedipus]: RS: SteveF asked about area/imagemaps -- in HTML5 removed all document structural info that one could use in HTML4
16:16:05 [oedipus]: RS: imagemap approach would require change in HTML5
16:16:29 [oedipus]: RS: advantages to using subtree -- already used for fallback content, how do we do binding to convey semantics and structural info
16:16:44 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, mute me
16:16:44 [Zakim]: MikeSmith should now be muted
16:17:15 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, unmute me
16:17:15 [Zakim]: MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:17:16 [oedipus]: RS: first question for TF: 1) use what is in adom proposal (what is in subtree is what author designated as a11y implementation); or 2) imagemap / use of AREA - would involve changing HTML5 changes to HTML5
16:17:19 [oedipus]: q?
16:17:23 [oedipus]: ack rich
16:17:46 [chaals]: q+
16:17:55 [oedipus]: SF: regards to areas of agreement -- what does that exactly mean
16:19:00 [oedipus]: SF: reply to RichS: imagemaps don't supplant use of subtree in complicated situations, but in simple situations where someone wants some hotspots on a CANVAS, seems lilke ideal solution; pluls for dev because easy to do and provides community a way to add text alternatives and labesl to hotspots, plus keyboard nav/focus built-in
16:19:02 [MikeSmith]: ack Stevef
16:19:37 [oedipus]: SF: if follow imagemap will help; problem with subtree issue is dichotomy between "fallback" -- is CANVAS available or not available; need means of differentiation
16:19:39 [oedipus]: q?
16:19:59 [oedipus]: MS: points of agreement -- lot more agreement in survey responses than in most surveys
16:20:24 [oedipus]: MS: easy for people to note points of disagreement -- looking for points of agreement
16:20:52 [chaals]: [The imagemap proposal actually comes from Lachlan Hunt (at least that's who showed me the light)]
16:20:58 [oedipus]: MS: sounds as if there need to be some refinements made to proposal based on feeddback from survey results -- is that accurate, Rich?
16:21:34 [oedipus]: RS: 2 changes in my mind are easy to make: 1) address DSinger's comment on what UA must do if adom is set (include in subtree map for API); if false, don't do it; made that change
16:21:50 [oedipus]: RS: added part about support of a11y API suggested by Sylvia
16:22:07 [oedipus]: RS: agree with SF, imagemap can be good solution for some cases, however, it has changed in HTML5
16:22:25 [oedipus]: RS: Maciej assumed canvas children always exposed to AT
16:22:48 [oedipus]: RS: includes not exposing for currently existing canvas elements -- how to control currently existing canvas implementations
16:22:51 [richardschwerdtfe]: Therefore I will propose adopting this proposal with one of the following changes:
16:22:51 [richardschwerdtfe]: A) Allow <canvas> children to always be exposed to AT, even if adom is not set; OR
16:22:52 [richardschwerdtfe]: B) Provide a rationale for not exposing this content to AT in some cases (this would likely include not exposing it for any currently existing <canvas> elements).
16:23:09 [oedipus]: RS: immediately above are maciej's comments
16:23:10 [chaals]: q+ to suggest another interpretation of what we agree on
16:23:28 [oedipus]: RS: don't know how one would handle point B
16:23:34 [oedipus]: MS: need clarification from maciej, then
16:23:46 [oedipus]: MS: have been changes made; planning other specific changes
16:24:00 [Stevef]: q+
16:24:01 [oedipus]: RS: made 2 changes that sylvia and dsinger asked me to address
16:25:06 [oedipus]: RS: possibility: imagemap in HTML4 allowed document structure in imagemap; with additional placement info, allows one to have same tree one has as if in subtree; realize we need to have document structure to assist author -- wahty is easier: imagemap (as in HTML4)
16:25:15 [chaals]: [ <!ELEMENT MAP - - ((%block;) | AREA)+ -- client-side image map --> i.e. you can have as many area elements, and as much of whatever other HTML, as you want ]
16:25:25 [MikeSmith]: s/syliva/cynthia/
16:25:26 [oedipus]: MS: sounds like a bigger question -- take to list for discussion, please;
16:25:29 [chaals]: [from HTML 4.01 definition of the map element]
16:25:30 [MikeSmith]: ack chaals
16:25:30 [Zakim]: chaals, you wanted to suggest another interpretation of what we agree on
16:25:57 [oedipus]: CMN: agree on functionalities; think adom attribute is a bad idea -- doesn't provide functionality haven't already got
16:26:08 [Zakim]: -Stevef
16:26:19 [oedipus]: CMN: need to hammer out scenarios -- what can be done with imagemaps and other approaches to making content accessible
16:26:43 [oedipus]: CMN: quick note to steve - bug in latest Opera beta
16:26:47 [oedipus]: q?
16:27:12 [oedipus]: CMN: agree that need to be able to navigate canvas; need to put stuff inside canvas; need to put a11y info in CANVAS
16:27:45 [oedipus]: CMN: completely disagree with adom model - but can achieve everything without that attribute; can do much better if HTML4 def of imagemap restored to keep things accessible
16:28:00 [oedipus]: CMN: don't think extra work is that daunting;
16:28:26 [oedipus]: CMN: adom very hard to explain; if shift imagemap to 4.01 capabilities, would be the biggest win; adom doesn't buy anything more
16:28:36 [oedipus]: MS: chaals, concrete alterante proposal?
16:28:43 [oedipus]: CMN: don't do this!!!!
16:29:08 [oedipus]: CMN: related to issue of what are we trying to achieve; concrete proposal for use of imagemaps if returned to HTML 4.01 powere
16:29:16 [oedipus]: MS: where is concrete proposal?
16:29:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:30:27 [oedipus]: ACTION: Chaals - coordinate concrete proposal for use of imagemap in CANVAS
16:30:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-21 - - coordinate concrete proposal for use of imagemap in CANVAS [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2010-03-04].
16:30:34 [oedipus]: CMN: can have both adom and imagemap
16:31:02 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith: I want to try to close off discussion on this by :35 minutes after
16:31:10 [oedipus]: RS: ok - one thing that may be confusing about adom is misunderstanding that this is a validity problem
16:31:26 [oedipus]: CMN: happens because RS keeps saying "testing needs place to pick up on"
16:31:29 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:31:35 [oedipus]: CMN: experience suggests that won't happen
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16:32:06 [oedipus]: MS: one approach is to say: based on survey and call discussion, might have critical mass within TF to go ahead with proposal
16:32:08 [chaals]: s/won't happen/means adom will be *used* as an accessibility conformance statement/
16:32:43 [oedipus]: MS: subgroup spent time on this; task force review; don't want to risk wasting time by putting forward prematurely
16:33:08 [oedipus]: MS: on other hand, could say "ready for discussion with larger group" this can procede in parallell with other efforts
16:33:16 [oedipus]: CMN: object to that - don't do it
16:33:19 [richardschwerdtfe]: q+
16:33:26 [MikeSmith]: ack Stevef
16:33:38 [Zakim]: -kliehm
16:34:21 [Zakim]: +kliehm
16:34:43 [oedipus]: SF: chaals, given we have situation where subtree supposed to be fallback and alternate to CANVAS - how to sheild those users from having to deal with subtree content if unusable
16:34:48 [chaals]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:34:59 [Zakim]: chaals, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:35:15 [chaals]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:35:25 [oedipus]: CMN: shield users from getting into subtree? imagemap/usemap more power than adom -- adom says use this map with this mapping -- can be hidden inside CANVAS or OBJECT element
16:35:26 [Zakim]: chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jon_Gunderson (19%)
16:36:03 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:36:06 [oedipus]: CMN: if object isn't rendered, get block content -- that falback could be an imagemap -- help one identify part of the subtree as part of current interaction, while leaving other stuff out
16:36:34 [oedipus]: CMN: imagemap designed to be interactive with canvas as rendered and fallback content; can use imagemap as part of fallback content or have imagemap and fallback content
16:36:50 [oedipus]: MS: running out of time on topic;
16:36:53 [MikeSmith]: ack richardschwerdtfe
16:37:30 [cyns]: q+
16:37:51 [oedipus]: RS: 1 question: imaegmap a solution - instead of adom have "navigate sub-tree"? alows someone to use that as a11y implementation and would direct test tool to include what is in subtreee -- might be the superior approach -- opens up option of use of imagemap
16:38:12 [oedipus]: CS: sounds like might be close enough to do an ammendment on this - can we close now and not have to cylce back next week
16:38:19 [oedipus]: CMN: need more discussion and more examples
16:38:37 [oedipus]: MS: yes, more examples; not going to get resolution on call -- have to discuss other survey results
16:38:51 [oedipus]: MS: can have rest of discussion list today and tomorrow
16:39:01 [oedipus]: RS: be at HTML WG after this -- what is timespan?
16:39:23 [oedipus]: MS: need another couple of days for discussion; making effort to get done; had great discussion on list and on TF call today;
16:39:32 [oedipus]: CS: one more week -- need to have written up 48 hours before cal
16:39:40 [oedipus]: RS: i will convey that to HTML WG
16:39:51 [oedipus]: TOPIC: results for summary-details change proposal: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20100225_summary/results
16:40:28 [cyns]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute,_Feb_15,_2010
16:40:40 [oedipus]: MS: look at points of agreement
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16:41:01 [oedipus]: q+ to say it seems that there is disagreement over summarizing attribute versus element
16:41:41 [oedipus]: CS: goal of proposal was to break log jam; been going round-and-round on summary for years; ran into stalemate of sorts; 1 group adamantly against summary use another adamantly for summary
16:42:09 [oedipus]: CS: PF's initial position was summary as existed in HTML4 good enough -- restore HTML4 verbiage and move on to other things; hasn't resulted in clean break
16:42:40 [oedipus]: CS: proposal stemmed from discussions in TF; JOC, GJR & WC collaborated; CS worked with WC
16:43:01 [oedipus]: CS: if better access to structure of table, what is use case for summary that aren't covered by ian's proposals
16:43:08 [Zakim]: +Wendy
16:43:35 [oedipus]: CS: ability to have text that is hidden from "mainstream" users but available for AT users who can't perceive table -- equivalent to visual info provided by gestalt view of table
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16:44:20 [oedipus]: CS: other use case: no text that isn't obvious to mainstream developers
16:44:49 [oedipus]: CS: run into both situations: need for summary or text equivalent that can't be accomodated by design; also used hidden text to achieve ends
16:45:10 [oedipus]: CS: goal -- find a middle point that everyone could live with -- i don't love it fully myself, but is an attempt at consensus
16:45:11 [oedipus]: q?
16:45:15 [cyns]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute,_Feb_15,_2010
16:45:15 [oedipus]: ack cyns
16:45:25 [oedipus]: MS: try to see where we have agreement so far
16:45:47 [cyns]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010
16:45:55 [oedipus]: MS: seems as if this was point of disagreement with proposal, but consensus around <button> element
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16:46:16 [oedipus]: CS: <button> element piece can be moved into separate change proposal
16:46:41 [oedipus]: CS: another goal was to provide clear migration path -- will help with education
16:46:50 [mattmay]: mattmay has joined #html-a11y
16:46:55 [mattmay]: q+
16:47:06 [oedipus]: CS: clear path from summary attribute to details element with summary child that is completely different form summary attribute text seems dangerous
16:47:28 [oedipus]: CS: funtionality of summary in details element is button - use all the time outside of forms
16:47:49 [oedipus]: CS: big piece is if move from summary to details having summary element in details going to be a big problem
16:47:57 [oedipus]: MS: something we are not yet in complete agreement about
16:48:30 [oedipus]: MS: seems that we need to evaluate rationales and methods; very open to discussion
16:48:43 [oedipus]: CS: agree don't have agreement to do it; agreement that needs to be done, though
16:48:45 [oedipus]: q?
16:49:23 [oedipus]: MS: position of <DETAILS> - child of <CAPTION> , child of <TABLE> or child of both - no consensus yet
16:49:51 [oedipus]: MS: some implementation issues brought up around TABLE algorithm
16:50:31 [oedipus]: CS: if can figure out way to have in caption without having caption taking place in flow; would expect would be many circumsatances in which want visible caption and an invisible summary
16:50:36 [oedipus]: MS: clearly need more discussion
16:50:38 [oedipus]: q?
16:51:22 [oedipus]: MS: points of agreement: @noflow comments mention that it is presentational (open to debate)
16:51:42 [oedipus]: CS: to be clear goal is to find something everyone can live with
16:52:05 [oedipus]: MS: defend proposal against objections
16:52:10 [oedipus]: CS: happy to do that
16:52:37 [oedipus]: CS: most interesting about DETAILS piece is that corrects semantics of DETAILS; noflow attribute moves behaviour of interactive elements in UA where it belongs
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16:53:11 [oedipus]: CS: show up on hover or focus feature of many details-like objects currently implemented
16:53:14 [oedipus]: q?
16:53:53 [oedipus]: MS: fundamentals of proposal were most disagreement -- rest of questions focus on DETAILS itself assuming that what is proposed is something to do
16:54:19 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
16:54:21 [oedipus]: MS: "do you support replacing summary with details" - perhaps should have been more fine grained
16:54:33 [oedipus]: MS: hard to make yes/no questions on some of these issues
16:54:50 [oedipus]: MS: response is that there a number of people in TF who disagree with this approach
16:55:27 [oedipus]: MS: not clear from survey whether opposed to proposal itself or having actual HTML5 spec suggest it as means of providing same sort of info that summary attribute is used for
16:55:45 [oedipus]: MS: according to WAI guidelines core purpose is to provide summary of structural info in table
16:56:22 [oedipus]: MS: not clear if completely opposed to replacing summary
16:56:31 [MikeSmith]: a?
16:56:33 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:56:40 [oedipus]: ack me
16:56:40 [Zakim]: oedipus, you wanted to say it seems that there is disagreement over summarizing attribute versus element
16:56:51 [MikeSmith]: ack oedipus
16:57:34 [JF]: +1 to Greg's point re: elements vs attributes
16:57:57 [dboudreau]: must admit i also buy Greg's point there
16:58:16 [oedipus]: MS: element versus attribute is clear concern -- can't put further structural info into attribut value and have processed by UA or most tools -- can't put structure in there
16:58:48 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
16:58:52 [oedipus]: MS: if taking complex table and describing with attribute value, without ability to use markup ????? [blocked by typing]
16:58:57 [MikeSmith]: ack matt
16:58:59 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Matt (77%), Gerald-E (63%)
16:59:14 [chaals]: chaals has left #html-a11y
16:59:28 [oedipus]: MM: against proposal full stop; makes process too complicated; dilutes purpose of summary to begin with
16:59:33 [chaals]: chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:59:40 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
16:59:48 [oedipus]: MMS: looks like something hacked together with no control over specification
16:59:57 [oedipus]: s/MMs: looks/MM: looks/
17:00:14 [oedipus]: MS: sounds as if not opposed to some means to do this as alternative to using summary attribute
17:00:29 [oedipus]: MM: if had to chose right now, support LauraC's proposal
17:00:37 [oedipus]: CS: already tried that
17:00:50 [oedipus]: MM: decision process there for this case -- not going to get consensus this way
17:00:52 [Zakim]: -Rich
17:00:56 [Zakim]: -Jon_Gunderson
17:01:19 [chaals]: zakim, Gerald-E is really me
17:01:19 [Zakim]: +chaals; got it
17:01:43 [oedipus]: MS: know about those who commented in survey that are opposed to this completely; need proposal for keeping @summary attribute or for alternate element
17:01:50 [oedipus]: CS: based on HTML4 or 5?
17:01:54 [oedipus]: MS: HTML4
17:02:16 [oedipus]: MS: worthwhile to encourage anyone who disagree to come up with alternative alternative?
17:02:42 [oedipus]: MM: would support another proposal with requirement that something be visible should NOT affect discussion -- drives proposals off the tracks -- onerous requirement
17:02:48 [dboudreau]: personnaly, my main beef is that it would be visible by default
17:02:51 [oedipus]: CS: sticking point for those who don't want @summary
17:02:58 [oedipus]: MM: sticking point for me in opposite direction
17:03:20 [oedipus]: MS: no TF agreement on details proposal -- high level disagreement (attribute versus element)
17:03:42 [oedipus]: MS: need to go back to discussion on list about this; i need to discuss with janina what we can do to facillitate consensus in TF
17:03:50 [oedipus]: CS: can't do any more on this until after SXSW
17:04:28 [oedipus]: MS: sounds like most work needs to be done by those opposed to it; might want to designate someone to update your proposal and counter-argue
17:04:56 [oedipus]: MS: five minutes over; pick up again next week -- in meantime need further discussion on list
17:05:01 [Laura]: Laura has joined #html-a11y
17:05:18 [oedipus]: MS: anyone who hasn't look at proposal, please do and if something original to add, please post to list
17:05:23 [oedipus]: [ADJOURN]
17:05:30 [JF]: have a great week all
17:05:30 [oedipus]: MS: next week Janina will chair
17:05:30 [Zakim]: -kliehm
17:05:36 [Zakim]: -John_Foliot
17:05:39 [dboudreau]: take care all
17:05:39 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:05:41 [Zakim]: -Matt
17:05:43 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
17:05:44 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
17:05:45 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
17:05:53 [Zakim]: MikeSmith is being disconnected
17:05:59 [Zakim]: -MikeSmith
17:06:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:06:03 [Zakim]: -Eric_Carlson
17:06:07 [Zakim]: -Wendy
17:06:09 [Zakim]: -Marco_Ranon
17:06:13 [Zakim]: -chaals
17:06:19 [Zakim]: -Denis_Boudreau
17:06:24 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:06:25 [Zakim]: Attendees were John_Foliot, Stevef, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, MikeSmith, Rich, Marco_Ranon, +1.514.312.aaaa, Denis_Boudreau, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, kliehm,
17:06:28 [Zakim]: ... Jon_Gunderson, [IPcaller], Wendy, chaals
17:06:38 [oedipus]: s/TOPIC: Actions Review/TOPIC: survey results for canvas change proposal/
17:06:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:07:31 [oedipus]: present= IPCaller
17:07:35 [oedipus]: zakim, bye
17:07:35 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:07:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:09:00 [oedipus]: s/MMS: looks/MM: looks/
17:09:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:09:04 [cyns]: cyns has joined #html-a11y
17:10:45 [oedipus]: s/2 changes that sylvia/2 changes that cynthia/
17:10:48 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:11:27 [oedipus]: present- [IPcaller]
17:11:56 [oedipus]: present- [+1.514.312.aaaa]
17:11:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:12:19 [oedipus]: present- +1.514.312.aaaa
17:12:21 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:13:04 [oedipus]: s/Actions Review/Survey results for CANVAS change proposal/
17:13:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:15:49 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-actions.rdf :
17:15:49 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Chaals - coordinate concrete proposal for use of imagemap in CANVAS [1]
17:15:49 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/25-html-a11y-irc#T16-30-27