16:39:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:39:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-irc
16:39:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:39:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
16:39:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:39:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
16:39:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:39:57 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2010
16:57:53 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:57:53 <Ahmed> Ahmed has joined #RDB2RDF
16:57:57 <whalb> whalb has joined #rdb2rdf
16:58:20 <Ahmed> Hello...
16:59:43 <Ashok> Hello Ahmed ... I will dial in soon
16:59:48 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
16:59:51 <Zakim> +??P7
16:59:55 <Zakim> + +043316876aaaa
17:00:02 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:38 <whalb> zakim, aaaa is me
17:00:38 <Zakim> +whalb; got it
17:00:45 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #rdb2rdf
17:00:55 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
17:01:07 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:01:07 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:01:11 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:01:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:01:17 <Zakim> + +49.322.22.aabb
17:01:25 <soeren> +soeren
17:01:39 <soeren> zakim, aabb is soeren
17:01:39 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
17:01:58 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:13 <angela_UNITN> angela_UNITN has joined #RDB2RDF
17:02:26 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
17:02:48 <mhausenblas> iv_an_ru, it would be you scribing today, is this ok with you?
17:02:57 <mhausenblas> looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/ScribeList
17:03:11 <Zakim> + +1.512.484.aacc
17:03:53 <Zakim> -soeren
17:04:17 <Zakim> + +039046128aadd
17:04:34 <Zakim> + +222220aaee
17:04:40 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see whalb, ??P7, MacTed (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, mhausenblas, +1.512.484.aacc, +039046128aadd, +222220aaee
17:04:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see angela_UNITN, mhausenblas, soeren, whalb, Ahmed, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, MacTed, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:05:10 <Zakim> - +222220aaee
17:05:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:05:49 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
17:05:49 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
17:05:51 <Zakim> +EricP
17:05:57 <Zakim> -EricP
17:05:59 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
17:05:59 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
17:06:01 <Zakim> +EricP
17:06:41 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:07:01 <mhausenblas> cygri is with mhausenblas 
17:07:48 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
17:07:48 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
17:07:57 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Nuno
17:09:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:09:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:09:22 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:10:32 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
17:11:18 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: accept the minutes from last telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
17:11:24 <Zakim> +juansequeda
17:11:26 <Zakim> - +1.512.484.aacc
17:13:09 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #RDB2RDF
17:13:40 <mhausenblas> ACTION-19?
17:13:40 <trackbot> ACTION-19 -- Harry Halpin to put Souri's draft into a WBS poll and notify the WG -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
17:13:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/19
17:13:50 <mhausenblas> ACTION-24?
17:13:50 <trackbot> ACTION-24 -- Harry Halpin to update website -- due 2010-02-16 -- OPEN
17:13:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/24
17:13:58 <mhausenblas> ACTION-25?
17:13:58 <trackbot> ACTION-25 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to and Souri to own the use-case documents -- due 2010-02-16 -- OPEN
17:13:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/25
17:13:59 <hhalpin> website updated
17:14:26 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-25
17:14:26 <trackbot> ACTION-25 And Souri to own the use-case documents closed
17:14:32 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-24
17:14:32 <trackbot> ACTION-24 Update website closed
17:14:52 <mhausenblas> ACTION-26?
17:14:52 <trackbot> ACTION-26 -- Michael Hausenblas to create F2F Wiki page -- due 2010-02-23 -- OPEN
17:14:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/26
17:15:07 <mhausenblas> ACTION-27?
17:15:07 <trackbot> ACTION-27 -- Michael Hausenblas to invite Olaf some time in the future (will be decided by group) -- due 2010-02-23 -- OPEN
17:15:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/27
17:15:40 <mhausenblas> Topic: team reports
17:15:47 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:15:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:17:22 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:17:22 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas
17:17:25 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:17:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricP
17:17:28 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:17:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose juansequeda
17:17:53 <mhausenblas> actually juansequeda would be next on the scribe list, true ;)
17:18:05 <juansequeda> ok I guess I can scribe
17:18:12 <mhausenblas> cool, thanks juansequeda 
17:18:18 <mhausenblas> scribenick: juansequeda 
17:19:01 <soeren> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_SQL_View_Annotation
17:19:07 <juansequeda> Soeren: will put a syntax document on the wiki
17:19:08 <juansequeda> '
17:19:27 <juansequeda> ... trying to implement this syntax. 
17:19:43 <juansequeda> ... implement it for Triplify tool and also in Java
17:20:11 <juansequeda> ... PHP version is already running with basic graph pattern, but it needs to be extend to work with optionals and filters
17:20:12 <angela_UNITN> angela_UNITN has joined #RDB2RDF
17:20:30 <juansequeda> ... hope to have an implementation to show if this approach works
17:20:46 <juansequeda> Ahmed: Are you trying to do both PHP and Java?
17:20:47 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about requirements
17:21:19 <juansequeda> soeren: yes, both. two phd students are working on PHP and Java. Algorithms are the same. So it should be very similar
17:21:40 <juansequeda> ... the PHP is progressing better. 
17:22:02 <juansequeda> ... more resources for the Java implementation because it is more important for the group
17:22:06 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:22:06 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about requirements
17:22:14 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-sparql-features-20090702/
17:22:38 <juansequeda> q+ to ask about the semantics of the language
17:23:59 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/09-RDB2RDF-minutes minutes for 09 Feb
17:23:59 <juansequeda> talking about reqs 
17:24:09 <juansequeda> Ahmed: When should we wrap up use cases
17:24:16 <mhausenblas> +1
17:24:27 <hhalpin> use-cases need to be wrapped up by April!
17:24:45 <hhalpin> which is coming closer than we think :)
17:25:16 <juansequeda> Ahmed: proposal: By next week present use cases
17:25:35 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: Let's try to have use cases by next week (march 2) 
17:25:43 <angela_UNITN> +q
17:25:48 <juansequeda> ... and we have a buffer week (an extra week) in case needed
17:25:49 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: have UC ready till 2 March
17:26:21 <juansequeda> +1
17:26:45 <juansequeda> Ahmed: any progress done by each team should be reflected on the wiki
17:27:05 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: The WG agrees to have the UC ready by 2 March 2010 and derive the requirements from this soon after
17:27:08 <juansequeda> ericP: after the usecases are ready, we can start with the requirements 
17:27:11 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:27:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:27:36 <juansequeda> ... then both teams can have their own page for their syntax, etc
17:28:20 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:28:55 <juansequeda> Ahmed: we need to update the page to reflect the new name of the team (SQL and RDF) and make a page for each team.
17:30:11 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
17:30:11 <Zakim> juansequeda, you wanted to ask about the semantics of the language
17:31:25 <juansequeda> juansequeda: soeren, have you guys worked on the semantics of the language?
17:31:42 <cygri> +q
17:31:56 <juansequeda> soeren: we have only been working on the syntax. We have not worked on the semantics yet. We should do that later
17:32:08 <mhausenblas> ack angela_UNITN 
17:32:38 <juansequeda> angela_UNITN: what do you envision has requirements to write the use cases? 
17:32:50 <juansequeda> ... should they be highlevel or low level use cases?
17:32:56 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: re syntax, focus on ANSI92
17:33:12 <juansequeda> Ashok: I would recommend high level usecases
17:33:22 <hhalpin> as regards use-cases, high-level, let's not confuse it with test-cases :)
17:33:56 <juansequeda> soeren: every usecase should have a sql schema with it
17:34:24 <juansequeda> Ahmed: that would make then the usecases very small because not everybody can share the schema
17:34:26 <hhalpin> as long as we have a english-language description that say, a product manager could understand
17:34:37 <hhalpin> without too much difficulty
17:34:59 <juansequeda> soeren: the HCLS usecase has a schema attached to its usecase
17:35:18 <juansequeda> ... I will contribute with a web application usecase like Wordpress
17:35:36 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed
17:35:38 <juansequeda> angela_UNITN: I will contribute with a schema and a domain ontology.
17:35:45 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:35:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:36:01 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
17:36:27 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
17:36:30 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:36:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:36:58 <juansequeda> cygri: Is there a problem if we create a language that depends on an ISO standard? 
17:37:09 <hhalpin> no we can depend on ISO standards
17:37:30 <juansequeda> Ahmed: my thought: we need to support ANSI 99 
17:37:31 <hhalpin> not a problem from W3C process perspective, as long as the ISO standard is not "in motion"
17:37:36 <hhalpin> but settled
17:37:48 <juansequeda> cygri: I haven't come across W3C recommendation that refers to a standard that is not freely available
17:38:04 <juansequeda> ... if you want to implement the language that we are going to define, you will need access to the SQL standard document
17:38:05 <ericP> most of us don't know what SQL 93 is ('cause it's not free and not on the web)
17:38:16 <juansequeda> ... however, you need to pay a fee to get this.
17:38:35 <juansequeda> ericP: to some degree we can do what we want, but we may get objections
17:38:37 <mhausenblas> s/93/92
17:38:42 <juansequeda> ... it might be a problem
17:38:51 <hhalpin> I have seen W3C recommendations refer to non-free recommendations
17:38:55 <hhalpin> ISO Common Logic comes to mind
17:38:59 <hhalpin> "depend" is a strict word
17:39:27 <mhausenblas> Michael: I think Richard has a very good point. We need to check this
17:39:29 <hhalpin> the point is that someone who reads a W3C recommendation should NOT have to download 
17:39:34 <hhalpin> another recommendation that costs money
17:39:38 <Ashok> q+
17:39:40 <hhalpin> to implement this recommendation correctly
17:39:42 <hhalpin> I will check
17:39:46 <mhausenblas> queue
17:39:51 <juansequeda> Ahmed: eriP, can you check with Ivan?
17:39:52 <hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to check on dependencies with non-free ISO
17:39:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Check on dependencies with non-free ISO [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-03-02].
17:40:50 <juansequeda> Ahmed: we need to provide in our mapping language a way to leverage things that are vendor-specific
17:41:03 <ericP> weird extensions to the language like OFFSET and LIMIT?
17:41:12 <juansequeda> Ashok: SQL 99 is a very big standard and there are things that nobody implements
17:41:37 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
17:42:13 <juansequeda> ... many of the W3C specs refer to the UNICODE act. But you can't get this spec on the web
17:42:21 <juansequeda> ... so you ought to be ok with SQL
17:42:30 <juansequeda> ericP: but we still risk for people to object
17:42:46 <juansequeda> .. this is not a policy issue, this is what our community wants
17:43:06 <Zakim> +??P1
17:43:12 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P1 is hhalpin
17:43:12 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
17:44:17 <cygri> juansequeda, ashok: for the record, you can download the entire unicode spec for free from unicode.org
17:45:12 <juansequeda> Ahmed: ericP, can you please ask Ivan also about SPARQL
17:46:26 <juansequeda> ... about the max expressivity of SPARQL because we don't want to have a mapping language that supports more expressivity than SPARQL
17:47:01 <juansequeda> ericP: sometimes to get things done, we omit expressivity that we would like to do just to get things done quickly
17:47:34 <hhalpin> +1 use-case driven approach
17:49:34 <mhausenblas> ACTION: ericP to create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage
17:49:35 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
17:50:05 <hhalpin> hmmmm as regards the semantic mapping, this is where marcelo would be useful
17:50:07 <juansequeda> ericP: we have a need to map semantics of SPARQL back to SQL
17:50:16 <hhalpin> as he has done relevant work here
17:50:46 <hhalpin> http://ing.utalca.cl/~jperez/papers/sparql_semantics.pdf
17:50:56 <hhalpin> q+
17:51:10 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Eric to create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage
17:51:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2010-03-02].
17:51:38 <hhalpin> yes but marcelo is part of the WG
17:51:52 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
17:53:00 <juansequeda> hhalpin: recommend that Marcelo should write the semantics of SPARQL to SQL
17:53:09 <hhalpin> his work has high regard from the formal semanticists 
17:53:13 <hhalpin> in Edinburgh at least.
17:53:44 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
17:53:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:53:54 <hhalpin> I also think richard cygniak had work in this area..
17:53:55 <hhalpin> richard?
17:53:57 <juansequeda> Semantics preserving SPARQL-to-SQL translation
17:54:15 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
17:54:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +043316876aaaa, whalb, MacTed, +49.322.22.aabb, soeren, Ashok_Malhotra, mhausenblas, +1.512.484.aacc, +039046128aadd, +222220aaee,
17:54:19 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], EricP, cygri, juansequeda, hhalpin
17:54:23 <hhalpin> well, not only marcelo, but marcelo plus someone else!
17:54:25 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
17:54:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:54:30 <cygri> hhalpin, yes but that was very early in the field, there's much more complete work out now
17:54:38 <hhalpin> ideally, someone else with experience in formal semantics
17:54:49 <hhalpin> double-checking formal semantics is painful :)
17:54:56 <juansequeda> Ahmed: the mapping language should not be aware of sql view or rdf view
17:55:25 <hhalpin> well, we'll just see what happens if we can reconcile them, otherwise we chose one.
17:55:46 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:55:47 <Zakim> -??P7
17:55:47 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:55:53 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:55:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:55:53 <Zakim> - +039046128aadd
17:56:01 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:56:06 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:56:07 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:56:08 <Zakim> -whalb
17:56:10 <Zakim> -EricP
17:56:23 <juansequeda> how do I do that?
17:57:12 <juansequeda> ok
17:57:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
17:57:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +043316876aaaa, whalb, MacTed, +49.322.22.aabb, soeren, Ashok_Malhotra, mhausenblas, +1.512.484.aacc, +039046128aadd, +222220aaee,
17:57:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
17:57:38 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], EricP, cygri, juansequeda, hhalpin
17:57:40 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, byw
17:57:40 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'byw', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:57:42 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
17:57:42 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:57:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin to check on dependencies with non-free ISO [1]
17:57:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-39-52
17:57:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP to create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage [2]
17:57:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-49-34
17:57:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eric to create Wiki page for RDF team and link from homepage [3]
17:57:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-51-10