19:50:04 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
19:50:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-irc
19:50:06 RRSAgent, make logs world
19:50:06 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
19:50:08 Zakim, this will be 2119
19:50:08 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:50:09 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
19:50:09 Date: 22 February 2010
19:54:13 Zakim, this will be 92433
19:54:13 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, richardschwerdtfe
19:55:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/0179.html
19:57:30 Zakim, this will be 92473
19:57:30 ok, richardschwerdtfe; I see WAI_PFWG(CANVAS)3:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:01:40 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
20:01:42 jcraig has joined #html-a11y
20:02:02 Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:02:02 WAI_PFWG(CANVAS)3:00PM has not yet started, jcraig
20:02:03 On IRC I see jcraig, jongunderson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, silvia, MichaelC, MikeSmithX, oedipus, davidb, chaals, trackbot
20:02:58 frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
20:03:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/0178.html
20:03:24 present+ Frank_Oliver, Jon_Gunderson, RichS, Gregory, David_Bolter
20:03:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:03:55 Zakim, help?
20:03:55 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
20:03:57 Some of the commands I know are:
20:03:58 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
20:04:00 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
20:04:03 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
20:04:05 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
20:04:08 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
20:04:11 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
20:04:13 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
20:04:16 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
20:04:18 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
20:04:20 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
20:04:23 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
20:04:26 list conferences - reports the active conferences
20:04:28 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
20:04:29 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
20:04:30 I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $
20:04:58 chair: Rich
20:05:14 Zakim, this is WAI_PFWG(CANVAS)
20:05:14 ok, jcraig; that matches WAI_PFWG(CANVAS)3:00PM
20:05:22 Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:05:22 On the phone I see Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jon_Gunderson, [Apple], [Microsoft], [Mozilla]
20:05:38 zakim, Microsoft has Frank_Oliver
20:05:38 +Frank_Oliver; got it
20:05:46 Zakim, Apple has jcraig
20:05:46 +jcraig; got it
20:05:50 zakim, mozilla has David_Bolter
20:05:50 +David_Bolter; got it
20:05:59 zakim, who is here?
20:05:59 On the phone I see Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jon_Gunderson, [Apple], [Microsoft], [Mozilla]
20:06:01 [Microsoft] has Frank_Oliver
20:06:01 [Mozilla] has David_Bolter
20:06:02 [Apple] has jcraig
20:06:04 On IRC I see frankolivier, jcraig, jongunderson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, silvia, MichaelC, MikeSmithX, oedipus, davidb, chaals, trackbot
20:07:45 RS: We would introduce an A DOM attribute, it can be called something else
20:07:50 RS: If the sub tree content is for accessibility then the A DOM marker tells the AT that it is for accessibility and browsers can also map the content to the accessibility API
20:07:53 scribe: jongunderson
20:07:55 RS: We have a problem with WCAG 2 for browsers that don't support canvas
20:07:59 RS: I tried incorporating DB content
20:08:03 RS is reading the proposal ....
20:09:39 RS: DB you asked about synchronization of A DOM with canvas
20:09:42 RS reading the synchronization definition....
20:09:45 RS: Colors and zoom has no standard way to define
20:10:28 RS: I want to rasie the point from last friday, if the A DOM is set to false, and then would be equally inaccessible
20:10:37 q+
20:11:04 RS: This is tru, but if the author wants to be accessible it allows them to mark the information as accessible and comply with WCAG
20:11:18 RS: Do we want to stay with the A DOM proposal?
20:11:18 s/A DOM/@adom/
20:11:27 s/A DOM/@adom/g
20:11:35 q?
20:11:39 RS: We need to put up a straw poll today to take it to the meeting on Thursday
20:11:45 ack jcraig
20:11:54 JC: I don;t think that was my exact requirements
20:12:16 JC: The issue is that several of us don't think we need the attribute
20:12:29 q+
20:12:52 JC: By adding the attribute and making it false by default, there could be some accessible content that will not be marked as much
20:13:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:13:34 q+
20:13:43 JC: The one exception is the message "Get a better browser", but if they do provide alternative or accessible content why do we need the marker
20:13:45 ack frankolivier
20:13:49 present+ James_Craig
20:14:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:14:22 regrets+ Chaals
20:14:30 q+
20:14:52 FO: Adding attributes by the author allows accessibility checkers to do some level of accessibility, I support the A DOM attribute, I don't think it is alot of work
20:15:03 RS: I agree with it too
20:15:16 q+ to respond to franks point: existing canvas content is irrelevant, b/c there is no current way to make it accessible
20:15:38 ack r
20:15:43 RS: The fall back content may be accessible, but it may not represent what is on the canvas
20:15:57 ack me
20:15:57 jcraig, you wanted to respond to franks point: existing canvas content is irrelevant, b/c there is no current way to make it accessible
20:16:03 RS: The question is does it map to what the user using the canvas is seeing and oding
20:16:18 s/oding/doing
20:16:36 plus 1 to jcraig
20:16:38 JC: We have not see much canvas content is not a reason why we need the A DOM attribute
20:16:48 q+
20:16:53 JC: We should not be hung up on the fact it is not accessible yet
20:17:01 s/A DOM/@adom/g
20:17:06 ack rich
20:17:26 RS: The point is that we can make it accessible, it comes down what is being mapped to what is being drawn
20:17:40 RS: The alternative rendering maybe accessible we just don't know
20:17:58 RS: This is how authors have been using fall back content
20:18:09 RS: I would like to hear form other people in the group
20:18:13 RS: DB
20:18:22 DB: This is the wrong time
20:18:54 DB: I would just mention, you could make canvas accessible, but it is very difficult, these approaches are also difficult
20:19:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:19:35 DB: I was agreeing with FO, but I am also see JC point of view, I am not optimistic about accessible content
20:19:52 scribe: rich
20:20:10 jon: I think we need a marker
20:20:30 Jon: there is not guarantee what that sub content is going to be
20:20:56 q+ to address the argument that the @adom marker will reflect author intention
20:21:07 scribe: jongunderson
20:21:33 JRG: would never see canvas?
20:21:34 RS: It has been generally agreed if an author wants an alternative rednering would replace canvas
20:21:56 -Jon_Gunderson
20:22:10 RS: basically the sub I'll be right back , battery died
20:22:18 +??P7
20:22:34 Zakim, P7 is Jon_Gunderson
20:22:34 sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'P7'
20:22:38 RS: A test group can say what do you got in there
20:22:53 Zakim, ??P7 is Jon_Gunderson
20:22:53 +Jon_Gunderson; got it
20:23:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:23:12 RS: Rule sets will be same as being developed with the OOA, there would be manual tests
20:23:15 q?
20:23:21 JG: OK
20:23:23 ack me
20:23:23 jcraig, you wanted to address the argument that the @adom marker will reflect author intention
20:24:17 accessible rendering of content, not canvas - if canvas contains interactive elements, must be made interactive even if canvas support turned off or not supported
20:24:42 JC: This A DOM tag would be a marker doesn't really matter to the user, if this part of HTML 5 the authoring tools will add it by default and not really work as a marker
20:24:58 q
20:25:00 q+
20:25:07 JC: If we can's trust authors to make accessible content, then the attribute can also be abused
20:25:24 JC: Who is the marker for test tools or AT?
20:25:37 q+ to ask if we are drawing a distinction between access to content in canvas and access to canvas?
20:26:16 RS: What A DOM does is say to map the sub content to the accessibility API
20:26:37 ack frank
20:26:41 JC: We think all the content should be mapped to the accessibility API, why hold it back?
20:27:24 ack me
20:27:24 oedipus, you wanted to ask if we are drawing a distinction between access to content in canvas and access to canvas?
20:27:24 FO: I want to draw a parallel with ALT text for image, you have conformance checkers to look for ALT text
20:27:40 FO: A DOM is kind of like ALT attribute for image
20:28:03 JC: This is the descendant conent of the sub tree
20:28:30 s/This is the des/In both cases, this is the des/
20:28:46 RS: The sub content is back up content, when the canvas content cannot be rendered
20:29:18 RS: When you want to say this content is mapped to the accessibility object tree like the controls in any GUI
20:29:29 q+ to ask frank to clarify his comment regarding img:alt :: canvas:adom
20:30:04 RS: If you were to sit next to a sighted person the sub tree content should represent the sub tree content
20:30:24 q?
20:30:24 ack me
20:30:25 jcraig, you wanted to ask frank to clarify his comment regarding img:alt :: canvas:adom
20:30:36 RS: If you don't set the A DOM attribute the user just gets the fall back content
20:31:30 JC: One of the things I want to clarify the point, the sub content would only be accessible if the authors add this attribute, I propose it should always be mapped
20:31:49 JC: I would like clarification of the ALT text analogy
20:31:53 agree with JC
20:32:34 FO: If you are using an accessibility compliance checker could check to see if the author did anything to make the canvas accessible, just like it ALT attribute is missing from an image
20:33:10 FO: If ALT text had two purposes the complaince checker couldn't figure out was done
20:33:57 JC: A compliance checker couldn't determine if the canvas needed accessible content, it could be decorative
20:34:22 FO: The author then could indicate that in the sub tree content, it could say that
20:34:40 JC: You can also set the ALT="" just because you are lazy
20:35:03 FO: Some form of indicator is useful for the author to provide some information
20:35:29 JC: This is saying to me that the ALT text is on the page ....
20:35:56 RS: I don't think we are forcing the user to do anything, we are providing a way for the author to provide intent
20:36:36 JC: You are telling the assistive technology and the browser not to expose content unless this attribute is added
20:36:50 RS: Are you saying the default value is TRUE
20:37:10 JC: I am saying that the value should always be true
20:37:34 JC: Why does the user care if it an exact replica or an alternative
20:37:44 RS: The user cares about equal functionality
20:38:10 RS: The keyboard and the accessibility information is the same as the able bodies person sitting next to them
20:39:08 RS: Sure people can create accessible content but it provide a means to render the alternative ...
20:39:55 JC: What you are also saying is the focus model needs to change, this A DOM flag would provide the information to ...
20:40:27 RS: The author would need to provide a means to render the sub content ..
20:40:47 JC: You mean the user agent, or the author needs to provide button
20:40:50 RS: Yes
20:41:00 JC: That sounds like a 2010 D-Link
20:41:29 RS: I am not making any claims, I don't know what the sub tree content is, it is just there, what do I do with it?
20:42:05 RS: We have debated this for 40 minutes, do people want to submit to the proposal to a straw pole for submission to the HTML working group
20:42:13 jcraig, reminds me of details "button" child problem
20:42:56 Proposal: Should we take the adom attribute proposal to straw vote to take it to the HTML working group?
20:43:05 -1
20:43:09 +1
20:43:13 +1
20:43:15 +1
20:43:21 abstain
20:43:25 +1
20:43:29 jcraig, check http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010
20:43:39 fine with vote
20:44:07 We will take it to a straw vote in the task force, do we want to change to the text?
20:44:23 RS: Is there anything other than disagreement
20:44:43 rich, can you post the finalized text to the list or point to it after the meeting?
20:45:00 JC: The author must requirements are specific to the attribute value, they should be there regardless of the attribute
20:45:02 The canvas element has a third boolean attribute, 4adom, to indicate if the canvas subtree is an accessible DOM sub-tree representation of what is drawn on 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element. If it is true, standard HTML elements may be used in the 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element sub-tree, however the rendering of the subtree is controlled by script through the canvas API. Wh
20:45:02 12 adom is set to "true" the elements within the 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element MUST be rendered transparently to ensure inclusion in the HTML keyboard navigation order without effecting the visible rendering of the web page. When adom is set to "true" the 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element the must be synchronized with the canvas rendering. The default value for 12 adom is
20:45:03 false to indicate that the canvas subtree is only used as fallback content and may not be used as an accessible DOM subtree representation of what is drawn on 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element. Authors supporting an accessible 12 adom sub-tree:
20:45:07 • MUST synchronize the accessible sub-tree elements, semantics, and structure with the canvas rendering.
20:45:09 • MUST render and maintain visible focus of the 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element subtree element on the rendered 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element
20:45:12 • MUST render and maintain the keyboard caret insertion cursor of the canvas subtree element on the rendered 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element
20:45:15 • SHOULD ensure that the 12 file:///Users/richardschwerdtfeger/Downloads/the-canvas-element rendering reflects the user settings for font, color, and zoom
20:45:21 RS: If it sets it rue ...
20:45:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:45:57 JC: I think those requirements should be , I guess in relation with this proposal its ok
20:46:20 JC: The last one authors should insure, is completely separate from the A DOM attribute
20:46:26 RS: I will change that
20:46:41 s/A DOM/@adom/g
20:47:01 RS: Anything else?
20:47:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:47:27 RS: DB did I meet your concerns about synchronization?
20:47:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/att-0178/canvaselement-issue74
20:48:54 DB: The link is not working for me, there we go..
20:49:13 DB: There is not alot of content here
20:49:39 DB: I guess it is fine
20:49:46 s/insure/ensure/
20:49:50 RS: I have made JC change
20:50:54 RSL I am going to change this to ..., author should insure that the author setting os font, color and zoom regardless wether ADOM is set to be true
20:51:04 RS: I will send to MC after the meeting
20:51:09 RS: The next thing
20:51:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:51:40 TOPIC: CARET Trakcing Issue 19
20:51:58 RS: Has SF make any progress on caret tracking, he is not here though to day
20:52:14 RS: I will send this to MC to set up a straw vote
20:52:53 rich, your data dump into IRC came out very confused in minutes
20:53:13 rrsagent, draft minutes
20:53:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/22-html-a11y-minutes.html jongunderson
20:53:42 RESOLUTION: Send straw vote to HTML group
20:53:54 -[Apple]
20:53:55 -Gregory_Rosmaita
20:53:55 -[Mozilla]
20:53:59 -Rich
20:54:00 -[Microsoft]
20:54:16 -Jon_Gunderson
20:54:16 jcraig has left #html-a11y
20:54:17 WAI_PFWG(CANVAS)3:00PM has ended
20:54:18 Attendees were Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jon_Gunderson, Frank_Oliver, jcraig, David_Bolter
22:39:27 Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:09 MikeSmithXX has joined #html-a11y
23:54:38 richardschwerdtfe has left #html-a11y