15:57:56 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-html-a11y-irc
15:57:58 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:00 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:58:00 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:58:01 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:58:01 Date: 18 February 2010
15:58:48 zakim, call cooper-mit
15:58:48 ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:59:00 Stevef: http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
15:59:12 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:59:12 apparently W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM has ended, MichaelC
15:59:14 On IRC I see RRSAgent, MichaelC, Stevef, JF, MikeSmith, richardschwerdtfe, Zakim, trackbot
15:59:17 zakim, this is 2119
15:59:17 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:59:20 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:59:20 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper
15:59:23 mikesmith:thanks
15:59:37 +[IPcaller]
15:59:41 Stevef, I'll set up the bugzilla component now
15:59:43 janina has joined #html-a11y
15:59:47 cool
15:59:57 zakim, call janina
15:59:57 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:59:59 +Janina
16:00:21 zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:00:23 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:00:46 zakim, Steve_Faulkner is Stevef
16:00:46 +Stevef; got it
16:00:47 -Janina
16:00:50 +Matt
16:00:50 Ben has joined #html-a11y
16:00:54 zakim, call janina
16:00:54 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:00:55 +Janina
16:01:18 zakim, who's noisy?
16:01:29 MichaelC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Foliot (1%), Matt (26%)
16:01:36 +??P16
16:01:38 -Janina
16:01:42 zakim, ??P16 is Ben_Caldwell
16:01:42 +Ben_Caldwell; got it
16:01:56 zakim, call janina
16:01:56 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:01:57 +Janina
16:01:57 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:08 -Matt
16:02:15 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
16:02:30 +Jon_Gunderson
16:02:32 Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:02:32 oedipus has joined #html-a11y
16:02:33 +[IPcaller]
16:02:41 -Janina
16:02:43 +Matt
16:02:49 zakim, call janina
16:02:49 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:02:51 +Janina
16:02:56 zakim, IPCaller is Wendy_Chisholm
16:02:56 +Wendy_Chisholm; got it
16:03:01 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:03:31 +Rich
16:03:31 zakim, drop janina
16:03:32 Janina is being disconnected
16:03:33 -Janina
16:03:39 zakim, call janina
16:03:39 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:03:42 wendy has joined #html-a11y
16:03:43 +Janina
16:04:08 chair: Janina_Sajka
16:04:23 -Janina
16:04:46 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0363.html
16:04:47 + +1.609.482.aaaa
16:04:50 +Janina_Sajka
16:05:07 +dsinger_
16:05:12 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:05:31 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:31 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Stevef, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, Wendy_Chisholm, Matt, Rich, +1.609.482.aaaa, Janina_Sajka, dsinger_
16:05:35 dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
16:05:36 zakim, +1.609 is Markku_Hakkinen
16:05:36 +Markku_Hakkinen; got it
16:05:49 zakim, mute dsinger_
16:05:49 dsinger_ should now be muted
16:06:17 Zakim, call Mike
16:06:17 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:06:19 +Mike
16:06:32 zakim, drop Mike
16:06:32 Mike is being disconnected
16:06:33 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Rich
16:06:35 -Mike
16:07:01 zakim, who is here?
16:07:01 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Stevef, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, Wendy_Chisholm, Matt, Rich, Markku_Hakkinen, Janina_Sajka, dsinger_
16:07:04 ... (muted)
16:07:05 On IRC I see dsinger__, paulc, wendy, cyns, oedipus, Laura, jongunderson, Ben, janina, RRSAgent, MichaelC, Stevef, JF, MikeSmith, richardschwerdtfe, Zakim, trackbot
16:07:07 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jon_Gunderson
16:07:08 -Wendy_Chisholm
16:07:08 Zakim, call Mike
16:07:10 +[Microsoft]
16:07:12 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:07:14 +Mike
16:07:19 zakim, pick a victim
16:07:20 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Cynthia_Shelly
16:07:21 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:07:26 +paulc; got it
16:07:36 zakim, drop Mike
16:07:38 Mike is being disconnected
16:07:42 -Mike
16:07:52 zakim, pick a victim
16:07:56 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Caldwell
16:08:17 scribe: Ben
16:08:33 regrets: Denis_Boudreau, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon, Bruce_Lawson, Kelly_Ford, Laura_Carlson, Martin_Kliehm
16:08:37 agenda?
16:08:43 -Markku_Hakkinen
16:08:53 +??P9
16:09:03 Topic: Action Item Review
16:09:33 action-2 due 4 March
16:09:33 ACTION-2 Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 due date now 4 March
16:09:36 ??P9 is wendy
16:09:43 zakim, what conference is this?
16:09:43 this is WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM conference code 2119
16:09:53 action-8 due 4 March
16:09:53 ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic due date now 4 March
16:09:59 Zakim, call Mike
16:09:59 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:10:00 +Mike
16:10:18 +Markku_Hakkinen
16:10:35 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:35 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Stevef, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, Matt, Rich, Janina_Sajka, dsinger_ (muted), Mike, [Microsoft], ??P9,
16:10:38 ... Markku_Hakkinen
16:10:38 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:10:39 Topic: Canvas Report
16:11:36 RS: We've figured out a way to use content in the subtree for dual purpose. We've got agreement from some browser vendors.
16:11:37 S/apple/an apple engineer/
16:11:45 who is ??P9
16:11:49 wendy
16:12:01 zakim, ??P9 is Wendy_Chisholm
16:12:01 +Wendy_Chisholm; got it
16:12:11 RS: Think we've adequately explained the issue and can move forward.
16:12:48 RS: SF Action to add an API for canvas, but canvas API has been separated out from HTML5 spec.
16:14:18 RS: Authors can always provide different UI features to render content differently. Working with Dave Singer on media queries related to whether to turn captioning on or not. We've used access for all vocabulary to do the spec, which allows us to address education level, hazards, ... configurability of UI, etc. if the author wishes to support these features.
16:14:31 RS: Would have the ability to selectively render different types of content based on user prefs.
16:15:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
16:15:02 RS: Trying to get this to a point where it's consumable for the rest of W3C for review.
16:15:04 zakim, unmute dsinger_
16:15:04 dsinger_ should no longer be muted
16:15:13 Topic: Media Subgroup Report
16:15:16 http://www.w3c.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html
16:15:39 -Stevef
16:16:11 we had a call focusing on markup of captions, subtitling, etc.
16:17:12 converns about complexity for authors, looking at roles and selection of different media properties
16:17:15 zakim, mute dsinger_
16:17:15 dsinger_ should now be muted
16:17:49 JF: A lot of work happening right now
16:18:01 JS: Significant discussion on list, please contribute.
16:18:40 regrets+ Joshue_O_Connor
16:19:16 Topic: Summary Change Proposal
16:19:23 http://www.w3.org/mid/C7412B925ACA454EADB3B6ECF5B960E8046B5D0C@TK5EX14MBXC141.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
16:19:55 JS: We have a change proposal on the table plus a draft related to how details will work
16:20:42 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010
16:20:55 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010
16:21:41 CS: Two competing absolutes in our discussion of summary. One is around having a way to have data that is only avail. to users who can't see (that is usually hidden from those who can see). Situation that people who work in accessibility run into where they don't want to add something because of impact on design.
16:22:01 hidden versus discoverable content is how we should approach the issue
16:22:04 CS: Second one says that anything an author can't see, they are likely to mess up.
16:22:41 CS: There's another one about text strings within attributes being problematic, but not as much discussion or concern around this one.
16:23:04 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010#Internationalization_.28i18n.29_Considerations
16:23:44 CS: Goal to find something everyone can live with. Proposal does deprecate summary (obsolete but conforming). Would probably result in a warning that suggests you do something else instead.
16:24:37 CS: Current spec doesn't include an alternative. Proposal is to add details element to table. Would, from a programmatic standpoint, do the same thing as summary.
16:25:45 CS: By default, details would be visible (show/hide that users could open to display the information within it.)
16:26:28 +[IPcaller]
16:26:33 CS: Advantage is that there is a clear migration from summary to details.
16:26:48 zakim, +[IPcaller] is Stevef
16:26:48 sorry, Stevef, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:26:55 q+ why must details be visible by default -- it should be up to user configuration -- if i can see the table and process it, i don't need to review the details; if i cannot process the table, i need the details, but i suppose having it visible by default allows for interactivity
16:27:04 why must details be visible by default -- it should be up to user configuration -- if i can see the table and process it, i don't need to review the details; if i cannot process the table, i need the details, but i suppose having it visible by default allows for interactivity
16:27:11 zakim, IPCaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:27:11 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:28:11 CS: Visible piece of UI in details currently is an element called summary, but it is really a toggle button. Proposal changes this from summary to button and to have a default rendering with a small graphical button. Idea would be to have an actual button that acts like an actual button.
16:28:40 q?
16:29:15 GR: Why must details be visible by default? Shouldn't that be a user configuration option?
16:29:59 Surely the style sheet can control visibility?
16:30:13 CS: Expect screen reader to render it by default.
16:30:17 dsinger, want a native HTML solution, not push-off to stylesheets
16:30:52 q?
16:30:57 zakim, unmute dsinger_
16:30:57 dsinger_ should no longer be muted
16:30:58 CS: Making it visible by default serves as reminder to authors that it there. What's described in proposal text is what a visual UA would do with it.
16:31:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:31:26 chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:31:33 DS: Can you style it?
16:31:45 CS: Yes, should be able to, but not addressed specifically in proposal.
16:31:51 q+ to say shouldn't we push for a native HTML solution, not a push-off to stylesheets
16:32:01 zakim, mute dsinger_
16:32:01 dsinger_ should now be muted
16:32:30 CS: would rather have a single attribute than to style with CSS and script
16:32:33 zakim, unmute dsinger_
16:32:33 dsinger_ should no longer be muted
16:32:45 q?
16:32:52 +[IPcaller]
16:33:02 zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:33:02 +chaals; got it
16:33:14 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:33:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
16:33:19 ack me
16:33:19 oedipus, you wanted to say shouldn't we push for a native HTML solution, not a push-off to stylesheets
16:33:29 my hand has been up
16:33:32 zakim, mute dsinger_
16:33:32 dsinger_ should now be muted
16:33:50 q?
16:34:39 GR: I feel more comfortable with a native HTML solution, not a push-off to stylesheets. If not an HTML solution, just saying use CSS is really not going to cut it.
16:34:58 GJR says if CSS is solution, then isn't CSS solution to tabular data display?
16:35:10 can't have it both ways...
16:35:31 if CSS is solution, then deprecate TABLE for all uses in preference to stylesheets
16:35:34 q?
16:35:42 CS: Another concerns related to semantics of button (as purely a form field), need to think about that some more.
16:36:21 CS: Another question has to do with whether behaviour is presentational or not
16:37:05 JS: Seems that we are very close to approving a recc. on summary. Not sure we're 100% there, still button issue, CSS vs. attribute issue, but we are very close. Are people generally happy with this proposal?
16:37:40 GJR likes DETAILS idea - if CSS is solution, then CSS should be used to control layout of tabular data, and TABLE should be deprecated for ALL uses
16:38:05 CS: There are some concerns. There is a proposal to remove the details element.
16:38:16 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/93
16:38:17 Suggest Cynthia should table her reasons for wanting
16:38:37 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-093
16:38:49 URIs for shelly powers' proposal and comments
16:39:26 JF: if it is a button, appropriate to push presentation to stylesheets
16:39:51 Shelley suggest: This type of functionality is trivial with JS.
16:40:11 If there is disagreement then people should push back on that thesis.
16:40:16 the devil is in the
16:40:32 JS: Seems that we're pretty close to agreement on this. Are there people who would not vote for this proposal?
16:40:51 q+
16:40:51 [I can live with it]
16:41:12 i can live with it with caveats
16:41:19 Should the TF do an email Call for Consensus?
16:41:23 Vote is a strong word but this should clearly be pursued
16:41:36 janina, paul is on the queue
16:41:48 q?
16:42:18 What does "vote this out next week" mean?
16:42:19 JS: Not hearing any disagreement. Thanks to Cynthia. Let's talk again next week and discuss with HTML WG participants as possible.
16:42:43 thanks cyns, for taking the bull by the horns (pun intended?)
16:42:48 Zakim, Mike is me
16:42:48 +MikeSmith; got it
16:42:51 Zakim, mute me
16:42:51 MikeSmith should now be muted
16:42:53 -dsinger_
16:43:20 +dsinger_
16:43:23 JS: Will do a survey on this.
16:43:51 dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
16:44:17 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:44:17 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, Matt, Rich, Janina_Sajka, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Wendy_Chisholm,
16:44:21 ... Markku_Hakkinen, Steve_Faulkner, chaals, dsinger_
16:44:22 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:44:30 PC: Wanted clarification by what is meant by "vote next week." A little more clear that survey is the right way to go. What are triggering events that start that and when exactly do you think it's going to happen?
16:44:36 zakim, mute dsinger_
16:44:36 dsinger_ should now be muted
16:45:21 JS: Triggering events are resolution on remaining issues, by next week, I mean about the time of this call next week.
16:46:54