15:10:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:10:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-forms-irc
15:10:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:10:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
15:10:12 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:10:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:10:13 <trackbot> Date: 10 February 2010
15:10:37 <Steven> zakim, this will be Team_(forms)
15:10:37 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see Team_(forms)15:45Z scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:34:35 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
15:43:21 <Zakim> Team_(forms)15:45Z has now started
15:43:26 <Steven> You on for scribing Charlie?
15:43:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:43:42 <wiecha> yup, planning on it
15:43:52 <Steven> Thanks
15:43:52 <wiecha> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:43:52 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
15:43:59 <wiecha> np!
15:44:26 <wiecha> note that the conf code is actually 26633, not 26631 as in agenda
15:44:48 <Steven> Yep, see Topic
15:44:53 <wiecha> yes, correct there
15:45:05 <Steven> @Zakim bridge, for code check the IRC channel, likely to be CONF1 (26631) irc channel irc.w3.org #forms@
15:45:21 <Steven> So only 'likely to be'
15:45:29 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:45:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:45:30 <Zakim> +Steven
15:46:25 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
15:46:54 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:47:05 <Steven> What's Leigh doing in the IRC channel???
15:47:12 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:47:16 <klotz> on my phone
15:47:20 <Steven> Scribe: Charlie
15:47:26 <Steven> scribenick: Wiecha
15:47:36 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Feb/0013
15:47:51 <Steven> Regrets: John
15:48:02 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:48:31 <Zakim> + +1.650.515.aaaa
15:48:45 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:48:49 <ebruchez> zakim, +1.650.515.aaaa is ebruchez
15:48:49 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:48:59 <nick> zakim, code?
15:48:59 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
15:49:45 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:50:10 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:50:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, ebruchez, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, wiecha
15:50:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see nick, ebruchez, klotz, wiecha, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot, Steven
15:51:48 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:55:05 <wiecha> Topic: Rechartering
15:55:20 <wiecha> Steven: have received review, editorial changes only which I have made
15:55:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2009/charter2010.html
15:55:52 <wiecha> ...timeline updated with more detail
15:56:07 <wiecha> ...necessary to continue VBWG as liaison?  thought so, yes
15:56:09 <wiecha> I agree
15:56:26 <wiecha> Steven: otherwise, positive review so mgmt team discussing this afternoon (now)
15:56:32 <wiecha> ...anticipate hearing tomorrow
15:56:44 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
15:56:52 <klotz> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2009/charter2010.html
15:56:54 <wiecha> ...anticipating favorable review, don't see reasons for objections
15:57:17 <wiecha> ...so we should plan for seeing a call to go out next week, probably Monday
15:57:34 <wiecha> ...gives us just a month before F2F
15:57:40 <wiecha> ...so we can go ahead with that date
15:57:42 <wiecha> +1
15:57:49 <wiecha> Nick: yes
15:58:03 <wiecha> Steven: I will work out locations
15:58:19 <wiecha> I am holding space at IBM in Cambridge as well
15:58:23 <nick> though still have to ask for permission to travel
15:58:41 <nick> the sooner we know it goes forward the better
15:58:42 <wiecha> Steven: we should start contacting potential new members of the WG, e.g. those active already in using XForms
15:59:58 <wiecha> Charlie: let's plan on using the conf room space at IBM...large room, external windows, etc
16:00:02 <nick> Charlie is it on 1 Rogers Street, Cambridge?
16:00:03 <wiecha> Steven: agreed
16:00:06 <wiecha> yes, Rogers st
16:00:32 <wiecha> Steven: potential folks to contact: formfaces
16:00:41 <wiecha> ...ampleSDK
16:00:52 <wiecha> ...yahoo for mobile
16:01:05 <wiecha> Steven: now joining more WGs, e.g. RDFa
16:01:12 <wiecha> ...could ask Micah
16:01:15 <klotz> can we consider Alain for Invited Expert?
16:01:17 <wiecha> for a name
16:01:21 <wiecha> EMC
16:02:17 <klotz> I will ask Microsoft and MarkLogic.
16:02:32 <Steven> Good idea about Alain, Leigh
16:03:24 <Steven> Kurt Cagle
16:04:09 <klotz> and Dan McCreary
16:04:10 <Steven> Kurt Cagle
16:04:18 <Steven> Yes Leigh
16:04:48 <Steven> Any other invited expert?
16:05:49 <wiecha> Topic: News items
16:05:56 <wiecha> Steven: have updated home page with a bunch of news items
16:06:05 <klotz> What about Mark Birbeck's status?  member or expert?
16:06:15 <Steven> expert
16:06:49 <wiecha> Topic: Tests that need work
16:07:05 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Feb/0009.html
16:07:39 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.1/Edition1/Chapt10/10.8/10.8.e.xhtml
16:08:24 <wiecha> has some incorrect markup for event handlers and is missing an instance which is required
16:09:09 <wiecha> Steven: instance shouldn't actually be required due to lazy authoring
16:09:37 <wiecha> Steven: all ok with proposed changes?
16:10:15 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.1/Edition1/Chapt10/10.8/10.8.f.xhtml
16:10:55 <wiecha> I can take both of these
16:11:34 <wiecha> ACTION: wiecha to fix tests 10.8.e and f as per discussion in emails
16:11:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-605 - Fix tests 10.8.e and f as per discussion in emails [on Charles Wiecha - due 2010-02-17].
16:12:09 <wiecha> Topic: Load/Unload events in XForms
16:12:14 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Feb/0007.html
16:12:36 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Feb/0007.html
16:13:01 <wiecha> Erik: given evolution of events in DOM, e.g. focusin and out and activate being deprecated
16:13:15 <wiecha> perhaps load and unload would make sense for us to use them?
16:13:19 <wiecha> HTML authors are used to load
16:13:33 <wiecha> in XForms we tend to use model-construct-done and ready
16:13:44 <wiecha> using load would benefit from familiarity and would be short
16:14:20 <wiecha> Erik: John commented on the list that this could be used to better describe our lifecycle with the containing document
16:14:32 <wiecha> ...load could be trigger to init our own stuff
16:14:54 <wiecha> Steven: you get load in two or three cases...document as a whole, then images
16:15:23 <wiecha> ...detailed questions on page lifecycle...when is everything ready?  just done with parsing?
16:15:32 <wiecha> ...is this as useful as xforms-ready?
16:15:41 <wiecha> ...need all constraints etc to be updated
16:15:47 <wiecha> Erik: it's pretty late
16:15:57 <wiecha> Nick: in HTML load is sent after js has been run
16:16:13 <wiecha> Steven: but not all images are in place
16:16:48 <wiecha> Charlie: forms authors would still need to wait for our events to begin
16:17:59 <wiecha> Erik: load might be used instead of xforms-ready
16:18:49 <wiecha> Steven: xforms would normally start initting the engine after load occurs
16:19:31 <wiecha> Erik: implementors might have some freedom to start initializing earlier than load
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16:23:16 <wiecha> Erik: if we want to use load, we would say xforms impls would redispatch the same named load event on the model to signal xforms readiness
16:23:36 <wiecha> ...any timing issues in terms of engine startup could be managed in between the document load and redispatched load
16:23:45 <wiecha> Nick: this would probably replace model-construct-done
16:24:02 <wiecha> Erik: no, that's earlier than ready
16:24:33 <wiecha> ...UI tree is initted before eady
16:24:36 <wiecha> s/eady/ready
16:25:01 <wiecha> Nick: normally, "load" implies everything is ready so would come not before the model is ready
16:25:11 <wiecha> Erik: right, should come after
16:26:40 <wiecha> Charlie: could be confusing if you listen for the wrong "load" event
16:26:47 <wiecha> Erik: would perhaps depend on an impl
16:28:06 <wiecha> ...xforms-model-construct-done is useful since lots of function is ready then, even if controls aren't present
16:28:20 <wiecha> ...but needs a better (shorter) name
16:28:21 <klotz> perhaps load belongs to html...js vs "native" as xforms ua might encounter it at different times or not at all
16:29:01 <wiecha> Erik: "load" would be closer to xforms-ready not model-construct-done
16:29:50 <wiecha> Erik: we use model-construct-done in almost every form
16:29:52 <wiecha> Nick: us too
16:30:19 <wiecha> Erik: since we can do lots of work without triggering updates to controls which aren't needed until after all the init is done
16:31:01 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:33:27 <wiecha> Erik: we have an action that runs synchronously to block until a set of async submissions complete, so we can block the UI construction until we're ready to go ahead
16:34:00 <wiecha> ...not clear that load/unload is easily included
16:34:16 <wiecha> ...perhaps we should tee up another topic on model-construct-done
16:36:39 <wiecha> Charlie: perhaps we can look more closely at the startup lifecycle and see if we could support this action pattern more as a first-class part of xforms
16:36:48 <wiecha> Erik: ok, I'll write up an email on this and we can discuss later
16:37:30 <wiecha> ACTION: Erik to write up example and discussion of model startup with async submissions before UI construction
16:37:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-606 - Write up example and discussion of model startup with async submissions before UI construction [on Erik Bruchez - due 2010-02-17].
16:38:04 <wiecha> Topic: Submit and Trigger availability during (multiple) submissions
16:38:26 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jan/0022.html
16:38:46 <wiecha> Steven: original design of submit/trigger was intended to avoid duplicate submissions
16:38:56 <wiecha> ...doesn't fit well into async world, and we could reconsider
16:39:56 <wiecha> Steven: seems to be something that should be declarative
16:40:11 <wiecha> submit is declarative...knows what it's submitting, where to, etc
16:40:27 <wiecha> trigger on the other hand doesn't have that direct knowledge of what's being triggered
16:40:48 <klotz> people like to style triggers differently depending on state.  so css or something should be able to find out
16:40:56 <wiecha> ideal would be declarative way to say a button should be disabled until something happens
16:42:31 <wiecha> submit would be the simpler case, but trigger could drop down and do multiple submissions, e.g. by data-driven construction of a URL
16:42:39 <wiecha> which would be in principle valid at any time
16:44:07 <klotz> not just disabled, but different, either via css or switch.  "search" button changes to swirly gif thing.
16:44:11 <wiecha> could use SNB on trigger to control availability
16:44:32 <wiecha> so the author can control whether the button becomes disabled or not
16:46:09 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
16:46:16 <ebruchez> that's the Cylon mode
16:46:28 <klotz> zakim, mute me.
16:49:01 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:49:18 <wiecha> Charlie: let's discuss again at the F2F whether Submit vs. Trigger could capture the simple vs. more general multiple-submission case
16:49:50 <wiecha> Topic: JSON initialization of instance data
16:50:15 <klotz> did you see the example I sent from xsltforms json?
16:54:09 <nick> http://www.agencexml.com/jsoncallback/wikipediasearch.xml
16:56:51 <klotz> as near as I can tell, the xforms document author does not have to write a callback method as in some previous proposals we have discussed.
16:59:28 <wiecha> Steven: reports that the team has approved the charter for distribution
17:00:03 <Steven> Woohoo!
17:00:06 <klotz> charter is findable by search engines "xforms charter 2010"
17:00:09 <Steven> News just came in
17:00:29 <Steven> Yes Leigh, that is the result of a public WG ;-)
17:00:55 <wiecha> Charlie: reports on progress implementing JSON import/export
17:01:20 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:22 <wiecha> ...raises question of whether a single simple parsing policy would be sufficient since if we're targeting external JSON data this will never have mixed content nor attribute values
17:01:38 <wiecha> so perhaps we don't need the full set of "fish" parsing options discussed earlier
17:01:56 <Steven> What happened to Zakim?
17:02:07 <klotz> sounds like we need a clear statement of use cases.
17:02:08 <wiecha> will post examples/discussion to the list but there's a simple version of src attributes using script JSON content working now in Ubiquity
17:02:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
17:02:31 <wiecha> yup, agree on need to nail down specific use cases
17:02:37 <Steven> zakim, this is team_(forms)
17:02:37 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a conference named 'team_(forms)' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:03:35 <Steven> Present: Steven, Charlie, Nick, Erik, Leigh
17:03:47 <Steven> Finished CHarlie?
17:03:50 <wiecha> yes, thx
17:03:54 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:06:34 <klotz> klotz has left #forms
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