IRC log of svg on 2010-02-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:40 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:00:40 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-irc
20:00:42 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:42 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:44 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:44 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM already started
20:00:45 [trackbot]: Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:45 [trackbot]: Date: 04 February 2010
20:01:06 [pdengler]: pdengler has joined #svg
20:01:35 [Zakim]: +??P1
20:01:42 [ed]: Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:42 [Zakim]: +ed; got it
20:02:42 [pdengler]: is this the correct suite? http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html
20:03:02 [Zakim]: +Shepazu
20:03:15 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:03:41 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #svg
20:08:00 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
20:12:24 [ChrisL]: Scribe: Patrick
20:12:32 [ChrisL]: Scribenick: pdengler
20:12:38 [ChrisL]: Chair: Erik
20:12:46 [pdengler]: ed: Proposed agenda items
20:13:08 [pdengler]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:13:10 [pdengler]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/
20:13:13 [pdengler]: anthony: #1 Test suites. These have been updated
20:13:50 [shepazu]: s/anthony: #1 Test suites. These have been updated/ed: #1 Test suites. These have been updated/
20:13:50 [pdengler]: pdengler: Should we push out test suites for XHTML
20:14:26 [pdengler]: shepazu: Is Microsoft thinking about supporting XHTML mime type and extension?
20:14:33 [pdengler]: anthony: pdengler : really?
20:14:59 [ChrisL]: s/anthony/chris/
20:15:48 [ChrisL]: zakim, mute shepazu
20:15:48 [Zakim]: Shepazu should now be muted
20:15:59 [ChrisL]: zakim, unmute shepazu
20:15:59 [Zakim]: Shepazu should no longer be muted
20:16:01 [ChrisL]: :)
20:16:21 [pdengler]: ed: Is is possible to move the harness to XHTML
20:16:37 [ChrisL]: yes, no problem
20:16:40 [pdengler]: ChrisL: We can serve XHTML with no problem
20:18:20 [Zakim]: +??P3
20:18:32 [ChrisL]: zakim, ??P3 is anthony
20:18:32 [Zakim]: +anthony; got it
20:18:46 [pdengler]: ed: Who can we get to make another harness....
20:19:05 [pdengler]: anthony: Is that the only thing left?
20:19:18 [pdengler]: ed: No. XHTML should be trivial.
20:19:43 [pdengler]: ed: Many references images were missing or incorrect. Have you done updates on those?
20:19:51 [pdengler]: anthony: No, haven't done that
20:20:23 [pdengler]: shepazu: Is it different betwen XHML and HTML?
20:20:31 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Shouldn't be
20:21:17 [pdengler]: action: anthony Create XHTML harness for test suites
20:21:17 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2721 - Create XHTML harness for test suites [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-02-11].
20:21:35 [pdengler]: action: anthony Fix up references images and missing images on test suites
20:21:35 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2722 - Fix up references images and missing images on test suites [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-02-11].
20:22:37 [pdengler]: ed: Issue : Changes in spec vs. changes in errata
20:22:47 [pdengler]: topic: Changes in spec vs. changes in errata
20:23:31 [pdengler]: ed: Was reading the process document regarding how to proceed with eratta. It does seem we need to keep them up to date as well as get reviews.
20:24:05 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Groups must collected feedback and 'should' do so in timely manner.
20:24:30 [pdengler]: ChrisL: One method is to mark proposed eratta and approved errata but no one (?) has ever done it
20:25:10 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Review is done by publishing the whole entire document; changes need to be marked for reviewers
20:25:27 [Zakim]: -Shepazu
20:25:33 [pdengler]: pdengler: Is the appending up to date?
20:25:42 [Zakim]: +Shepazu
20:25:48 [pdengler]: ed: Should be. And there should be links to the SVC change logs
20:25:51 [ChrisL]: s/Review is/Other way is to get review/
20:26:08 [ChrisL]: s/SVC.CVS/
20:27:46 [pdengler]: shepazu: I don't know if it's useful to maintain the eratta seperately except as a transtional thing
20:28:29 [pdengler]: ChrisL: We were using that process but then we started moving them directly into the spec.
20:29:15 [pdengler]: shepazu: Before move on can we cover anthony's gradient issue
20:29:33 [pdengler]: topic: Proposed working for gradient rendering
20:29:36 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0005.html
20:30:17 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0006.html
20:30:35 [pdengler]: anthony: Read this and kind of agree with this. If you read the parts about which order things are applied.
20:31:12 [pdengler]: shepazu: What is the gradient normal
20:31:21 [pdengler]: ed: perpendicular (90 degrees)
20:31:32 [ed]: s/ed/CL/
20:32:33 [pdengler]: ed: it's 90 degrees in it's own coordinate system, but if you skew it should no longer be normal
20:32:52 [ed]: s/ed:/CL:/
20:33:06 [pdengler]: anthony: Will make this clearer
20:35:20 [pdengler]: shepazu: make sense to align for illustrator
20:35:37 [pdengler]: ed: Haven't heard about this issue, but we will fix it
20:36:07 [pdengler]: ChrisL: All of the editors do it the same way, and some of the viewers do it the same, some do it different
20:36:35 [ed]: s/haven't heard about this issue/haven't seen any bugreports on this issue/
20:40:10 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Will revise wording on gradients next week
20:40:54 [pdengler]: ed: topic: read-only vs. non read-only IDLs
20:41:27 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0008.html (point #3a)
20:42:03 [pdengler]: pdengler: Seem to be inconsitencies here.
20:42:27 [pdengler]: ed: Would have been good to have Cameron here.
20:43:23 [pdengler]: ed: Not suppose to be able write to animated values, which is what the IDL is trying to express.
20:44:13 [pdengler]: ed: if you find other places, send a pointer and we will look at those
20:44:50 [pdengler]: ed: mutable/immutable would be clearer but not sure if IDL allows this to be expressed
20:46:03 [pdengler]: pdengler: We will investigate this on our side and if we find anything still as an issue, we will get back
20:46:37 [pdengler]: shepazu: keep in mind WebIDL for 2.0 will help remove these inconsistencies
20:48:05 [pdengler]: topic:Line caps drawing on zero length lines
20:48:35 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0010.html
20:48:59 [shepazu]: agenda+ CSS @style spec comments
20:49:14 [pdengler]: pdengler: If we make the adjustment to the spec that Erik suggested "update F.5 section to also say that 'butt' linecaps means nothing is drawn"
20:50:39 [pdengler]: action: pdengler update sectoin on line caps (F.5) do read that reflect nothing is drawn for 'butt' linecaps
20:50:39 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2723 - Update sectoin on line caps (F.5) do read that reflect nothing is drawn for 'butt' linecaps [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-02-11].
20:51:52 [pdengler]: ed: topic: CSS spec changes
20:52:53 [pdengler]: shepazu: the CSS working group has the style spec for the 'style' attribute; how to parse unit-less values
20:53:05 [pdengler]: shepazu: Did you (ChrisL) send the response
20:53:41 [ChrisL]: ACTION-2718?
20:53:41 [trackbot]: ACTION-2718 -- Chris Lilley to write wording about unitless property values for CSS Styling Attributes Level 1 spec -- due 2010-02-01 -- OPEN
20:53:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2718
20:54:38 [pdengler]: shepazu: Things like stroke-width, if you use a unit, that's defined in the coordinate space (root), it could have unpredictable events.
20:55:10 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#EnableBackgroundProperty
20:56:00 [pdengler]: shepazu: Comments are due on the 6th (or 8th)
20:56:03 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#FillOpacityProperty
20:56:04 [pdengler]: ChrisL: I will get them in
20:56:44 [ed]: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/propidx.html
20:58:33 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Discussion with CSS group wasn't as fruitful this time as they had other items on their agena
20:59:33 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Didn't get to any stuff that applies to SVG. These are on wednesday
21:00:10 [pdengler]: pdengler: Is there a list of SVG specifics that we want to discuss with CSS?
21:00:14 [eseidel]: eseidel has joined #svg
21:00:32 [pdengler]: shepazu: We should put this on a wiki page for CSS collaborations. This is the stuff the task for should be covering
21:01:05 [anthony]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce
21:02:36 [pdengler]: shepazu: There are folks in css trying to push forward items like animation, but they are not really actively engaged
21:03:38 [pdengler]: shepazu: There are folks on the FX working group that will help push this forward; we will be isolate folks who specialize in graphics and move forward more quickly
21:04:00 [pdengler]: pdengler: Isn't tranisitions moving along
21:04:19 [pdengler]: ChrisL: It is.
21:04:46 [pdengler]: shepazu: We can have some say on how they apply to SVG as this is not yet articulated
21:05:07 [pdengler]: ed: I should publish some examples I made for SVG Open with CSS transitions and SVG
21:06:25 [pdengler]: topic: 'symbol' and 'display: none' clarification
21:06:43 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Feb/0011.html
21:07:27 [pdengler]: ed: Display should be respected and the spec is clear, except for x,y; firefox and webkit respect them anyway
21:08:54 [pdengler]: ChrisL: The idea was to define a symbol indepdenent of how it was going to use; where you have no edit control (i.e. symbol library)
21:09:51 [pdengler]: shepazu: neither symbol nor marker necessarily makes sense in that context
21:10:09 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Original thiking was a single SVG file with symbols in them
21:10:43 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Fragment was made mandatory, but shouldn't have had to
21:11:04 [ChrisL]: ISSUE: non mandatory fragments on use
21:11:04 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-2303 - Non mandatory fragments on use ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2303/edit .
21:11:21 [pdengler]: shepazu: suppose you had a file full of symbols and you wanted to reference just one of them, you would still have to download the whole file
21:12:08 [pdengler]: shepazu: at what point does it make sense to split them up? these could be good recommendations for external references.
21:12:59 [pdengler]: pdengler: Isn't SVG fonts just another symbol/marker
21:13:14 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Yes, SVG fonts is just another use case of symbol/marker
21:13:44 [pdengler]: ed: It does give it some new behavior for textual representation
21:14:05 [pdengler]: shepazu: Now looking out, how can we cut things down to simplify implementations
21:14:19 [pdengler]: ChrisL: needs analysis as sometimes you find specifics that are required
21:14:49 [pdengler]: shepazu: Let's look at the differences between nested SVG, symbol and marker, e.g. and we might find the Symbol and marker are just short hands for nested SVG
21:15:43 [pdengler]: ChrisL: If we are talking about refactoring, the number of times you use markers is low, and if you want markers, you should have a polymarker elements for example
21:15:49 [ChrisL]: I updated ISSUE-2303 to add some details, and assigned it to SVG Core 2.0
21:17:36 [ChrisL]: (discussion on markers and symbols and interactivity)
21:18:35 [pdengler]: topic: Further error processing clarifications in XHTML for example
21:18:40 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/ua-tests/bold-italic-strikethrough-element-inherit.xhtml
21:19:28 [pdengler]: ed: Think it's more of XHTML/HTML
21:19:51 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Not necessariy; could be style issue.
21:20:56 [ChrisL]: <b> is the same as <span style="font-weight: bold"> so should inherit the same way
21:21:09 [pdengler]: ChrisL: This scenario, really being a style issue should behave in this manner (inherit appropriately)
21:21:57 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Think about strike through on <textPath>. you have to calculate geometries if you want a smooth strike-through
21:22:11 [pdengler]: ed: Not sure what happens if you do vertical text
21:22:52 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Underdefined for non-horizontal text
21:23:13 [pdengler]: shepazu: does there exist another convention for strike through for vertical text? Find out if they use strike through
21:23:30 [pdengler]: ChrisL: Japanesese has some examples here
21:24:54 [pdengler]: topic: SVGElementInstance mixed support
21:25:33 [pdengler]: ed: not deprecated. it needs to be correctly implemented (as has been done in opera and webkit). I you have test cases that shows inconsistencies, that would be a good thing to contribute
21:25:53 [pdengler]: shepazu: (still on the older topic) Japanese has double-strike through
21:27:05 [pdengler]: ed: only way to get to these is through correspondingElement to get the actual elements referenced
21:28:21 [pdengler]: action: pdengler Update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events
21:28:22 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2724 - Update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-02-11].
21:29:07 [pdengler]: ed: topic SVGSVGElement 'width' and 'height'
21:30:28 [shepazu]: ACTION-4?
21:30:28 [trackbot]: ACTION-4 does not exist
21:31:03 [pdengler]: anthony: save SVGSVGElement 'width' and 'height' for next telcon
21:31:13 [shepazu]: ACTION-2724?
21:31:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-2724 -- Patrick Dengler to update spec on Minor Correction to DOM language http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/svgdom.html#RelationshipWithDOM2Events -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
21:31:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2724
21:31:34 [ChrisL]: zakim, list attendees
21:31:34 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony
21:31:47 [ChrisL]: zakim, aaaa is Patrick
21:31:47 [Zakim]: +Patrick; got it
21:31:50 [ChrisL]: zakim, list attendees
21:31:50 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony, Patrick
21:32:04 [ChrisL]: rrsagent, make minutes
21:32:04 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
21:33:26 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
21:33:38 [Zakim]: -ed
21:33:43 [Zakim]: -anthony
21:34:08 [Zakim]: -Patrick
21:34:18 [Zakim]: -Shepazu
21:34:19 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:34:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.425.868.aaaa, ed, Shepazu, ChrisL, anthony, Patrick
21:35:55 [ChrisL]: Patrick I sent out the minutes for you
21:36:25 [ChrisL]: The only trick is to append .text to the html URI to get a plain text version
21:36:32 [ChrisL]: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-svg-minutes.html,text
22:01:02 [eseidel]: eseidel has joined #svg